My parish is falling apart

OrthodoxWanderer said:

There's no single dividing issue. There have been personality differences, cultural differences, control issues, differences of opinions pre-COVID. They just reached a breaking point recently, outwardly over masks but really I think it gave people a reason to no longer try.

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Perhaps a sermon on hardening of the heart might soften things up a bit?

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Plus my yearning for the Eucharist outweighed my frustration with paper masks. That was just my take.

But some of these folks who put themselves on a pedestal for taking a stand against masks were very loud and critical and a bit scandalous in their “protest,” which I found off-putting.

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I completely understand. At our parish I had a gentleman who when asked to wear a mask at the door told me "your bishop doesn't believe in God". Our bishop is/was an Athonite monk so I have no doubt that he does in fact believe in God. Thankfully that parishioner is in the vast minority of people at the parish who were so vocal, and negative about it. I agree that obedience should be observed; period. It's my place as laity to remember the virtues to include obedience, and follow the direction of the bishop, and priest while they do the best they can to shepherd the flock.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

I felt it was more about obedience. I’m minor (emphasis on minor!) clergy, and my priest set some parameters. Likewise, he has many serious health issues and his doctor categorized him as high-risk for the virus. He’s in a wheelchair and has diabetes and other issues. I put his requests and health in my heart and obeyed.

Plus my yearning for the Eucharist outweighed my frustration with paper masks. That was just my take.

But some of these folks who put themselves on a pedestal for taking a stand against masks were very loud and critical and a bit scandalous in their “protest,” which I found off-putting.

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I do appreciate that, even though I lean the other way.
In light of what this thread is ostensibly about, it's the inability of many people to even hear the concerns of the side they have less sympathy towards. I have less sympathy towards masks - and it's not mere prejudice, but both personal experience, certain bits of knowledge, and the dark side of masks - and even obedience would have to be qualified for me. But I can see where you are coming from. In my parish we have division aplenty, but people seem pretty tolerant of each other (in regards to, but not limited to masks, for example. There are signs up everywhere mandating them that are now ignored by a clear majority en masse, including in our church). I think that in such things, we ought to obey our conscience (as you are) and not judge others who think differently. The problem is, some see that issue as dogmatically as most (but sadly, not all) of us see, say, sexual morality, either that masks ought to be mandated for all, or forbidden altogether, because of what they believe.

But I do think that there is at least a 90% alignment of the attitudes toward such things in general with the attitude I described above toward tradition vs the claims of modern science (and the education that produces it), again, allowing for exceptions.

I have no love for masks, and I think at this point in my area, wearing them is overkill. I’m vaccinated, twice. Same with my wife and my kids are getting their second shot tomorrow. Wearing masks is a bit much now.

But for most of the year, the Central Valley was deep in the purple. It was BAD in these here parts. I had coworkers catch COVID19, I went to funerals for it, had a bunch of staff lose their family members, and my wife worked as an RN on the front line seeing the insane case loads and death. Our hospitals were overwhelmed around here. We had to wear masks and quarantine, and I did so without a fuss or complaints about my freedom. At some point, some blasted point, Americans need to come together on SOMETHING, and I was disappointed and just tired of watching the far right wing tout conspiracy theories, odd statements like “it’s just a flu” and “it’s impossible for kids to catch it” and vitamin D is enough to repel it, etc. My wife had a patient who felt like he was going to die, my wife had him tested, came back positive. He refused to accept the results saying there’s no such thing as COVID! He was yelling conspiracy!!!....Then there were all these conservatives bemoaning the fact that Moderna and Pfizer weren’t FDA-approved shots. This coming from people who hate the government and don’t trust the FDA?

Our parish was very outlaw. Churches in CA were mandated to close down, but ours wouldn’t do so. We remained open. But we had the mask request. I felt Father was right to navigate a middle ground. He was very patient and kind. some who fanatically wouldn’t come out of their homes at all didn’t come to church for a year! Some felt themselves in the right with this “germs can’t enter a church” mentality, then folks like most of us just tried our best, came, and helped out. By Holy Week, when masks were gone, the anti-maskers walked in....and I found myself rolling my eyes. I had to pray for Gods forgiveness because I had some resentment despite personally liking those folks.

We’re now in the Orange in the Valley. I feel masks did the trick and 9 out of 10 of us pulled together. I’m just glad this is coming to an end....seemingly.

This is my wife’s final week at the hospital as an RN. 8 years. I’m proud of her. FNP job starts in two weeks. Very exciting.

rusmeister said:

I do appreciate that, even though I lean the other way.
In light of what this thread is ostensibly about, it's the inability of many people to even hear the concerns of the side they have less sympathy towards. I have less sympathy towards masks - and it's not mere prejudice, but both personal experience, certain bits of knowledge, and the dark side of masks - and even obedience would have to be qualified for me. But I can see where you are coming from. In my parish we have division aplenty, but people seem pretty tolerant of each other (in regards to, but not limited to masks, for example. There are signs up everywhere mandating them that are now ignored by a clear majority en masse, including in our church). I think that in such things, we ought to obey our conscience (as you are) and not judge others who think differently. The problem is, some see that issue as dogmatically as most (but sadly, not all) of us see, say, sexual morality, either that masks ought to be mandated for all, or forbidden altogether, because of what they believe.

But I do think that there is at least a 90% alignment of the attitudes toward such things in general with the attitude I described above toward tradition vs the claims of modern science (and the education that produces it), again, allowing for exceptions.

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Along with the OP of this thread, I would suggest your parish may be falling apart (or feel like it is), but I would suggest further that the world is falling apart. People are locked into ideologies worldwide now that are extreme, polarized, and entrenched to the point that it's bleeding into the parishes. People are now wholly political.

On one hand to be a good lefty you must: hate white people, believe in critical race theory, deny blatant biology and proclaim LGBTQ dogmas from their manifesto, be pro-abortion, see racism in every single thing all day long, hate guns, embrace atheism (most of the time, or some kind of equivocation), and be outraged all day long.

On the other hand, to be a good right-winger, you have to refuse to wear a mask and think "they're controlling us!" all the time, believe every meme you read on Facebook that makes the left look bad even if it's a fake quote, think COVID was a conspiracy and fake all along, believe all conspiracies even if they contradict each other, think everyone is a commie, proclaim the election was stolen, and play the macho card like your life depended on it.

Then there is this ultra tiny minority like me, that takes a bit of both. I most definitely am more center right than left, but I find often times people get irritated at me on the right because I "let them down" and my liberal friends think I'm "way too conservative." I've been called too liberal and too intolerant. So I guess I'm doing something right!

The world is retreating into extremes. That spells war. That spells strife. That spells riots, destabilization, civil war, etc. Things ahead are not going to be pretty. Thankfully, in the grand scheme, the Lord wins, period!

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Along with the OP of this thread, I would suggest your parish may be falling apart (or feel like it is), but I would suggest further that the world is falling apart. People are locked into ideologies worldwide now that are extreme, polarized, and entrenched to the point that it's bleeding into the parishes. People are now wholly political.

On one hand to be a good lefty you must: hate white people, believe in critical race theory, deny blatant biology and proclaim LGBTQ dogmas from their manifesto, be pro-abortion, see racism in every single thing all day long, hate guns, embrace atheism (most of the time, or some kind of equivocation), and be outraged all day long.

On the other hand, to be a good right-winger, you have to refuse to wear a mask and think "they're controlling us!" all the time, believe every meme you read on Facebook that makes the left look bad even if it's a fake quote, think COVID was a conspiracy and fake all along, believe all conspiracies even if they contradict each other, think everyone is a commie, proclaim the election was stolen, and play the macho card like your life depended on it.

Then there is this ultra tiny minority like me, that takes a bit of both. I most definitely am more center right than left, but I find often times people get irritated at me on the right because I "let them down" and my liberal friends think I'm "way too conservative." I've been called too liberal and too intolerant. So I guess I'm doing something right!

The world is retreating into extremes. That spells war. That spells strife. That spells riots, destabilization, civil war, etc. Things ahead are not going to be pretty. Thankfully, in the grand scheme, the Lord wins, period!

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Outstanding post, gurney. I find myself politically at that exact same position on the political spectrum. You've described exactly how I see myself when compared to the majority of other Americans.

Truthfully it's a shame as I love our country, but I see us heading down the direction you've predicted as well.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Along with the OP of this thread, I would suggest your parish may be falling apart (or feel like it is), but I would suggest further that the world is falling apart. People are locked into ideologies worldwide now that are extreme, polarized, and entrenched to the point that it's bleeding into the parishes. People are now wholly political.

On one hand to be a good lefty you must: hate white people, believe in critical race theory, deny blatant biology and proclaim LGBTQ dogmas from their manifesto, be pro-abortion, see racism in every single thing all day long, hate guns, embrace atheism (most of the time, or some kind of equivocation), and be outraged all day long.

On the other hand, to be a good right-winger, you have to refuse to wear a mask and think "they're controlling us!" all the time, believe every meme you read on Facebook that makes the left look bad even if it's a fake quote, think COVID was a conspiracy and fake all along, believe all conspiracies even if they contradict each other, think everyone is a commie, proclaim the election was stolen, and play the macho card like your life depended on it.

Then there is this ultra tiny minority like me, that takes a bit of both. I most definitely am more center right than left, but I find often times people get irritated at me on the right because I "let them down" and my liberal friends think I'm "way too conservative." I've been called too liberal and too intolerant. So I guess I'm doing something right!

The world is retreating into extremes. That spells war. That spells strife. That spells riots, destabilization, civil war, etc. Things ahead are not going to be pretty. Thankfully, in the grand scheme, the Lord wins, period!

Click to expand...

I agree with you on a lot here, though I think that there is a distinct imbalance and so while your characterization of the Left is largely correct both in terms of party platforms and the general direction and thrust of things, your characterization of the right is not so objectively descriptive (given that I don't think the political right to be right, either), but more caricaturish. Leftists really do believe in their identity politics and conception of equality; the average right-winger does NOT think Covid to be fake or that he must believe all memes that attack the Left.

That said, I generally agree with you. I didn't want to make it about masks: I DO believe the election was stolen: I DO believe there is such a thing as conspiracies, the entire question is whether the conspiracy is false or true, and the use of the term "conspiracy theory" (like "discrimination", "tolerance", etc) has become a term for Pavlov's dogs, intended to call up an immediate and negative reaction that short-circuits and fails to think about that question, but leaves the speaker imagining that he has thought. But I think it inappropriate to argue (in the intelligent sense) about the matter here. Here it is enough to establish that you disagree with others in your church and think them unreasonable, and that they similarly disagree with you and think you unreasonable. I don't agree with either position; I think it is possible to be reasonable, though "reasonable" does NOT mean "agree with me". So we can resist this tendency toward falling apart by looking for reasonable and lucid moments in those we disagree with; to see what could be right in those we think wrong.

Or we can write everyone on the other side off as unreasonable, and accelerate the disintegration process.

rusmeister said:

Or we can write everyone on the other side off as unreasonable, and accelerate the disintegration process.

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I wish it were possible to dis-integrate. Forgive my brazenness, but whatever the political terms "right" and "left" originally meant, I believe they now mean the difference between good and evil, and the difference between wisdom and foolishness. The Left represents the antichrist's world system in the book of Revelation, Big Brother in 1984, and the N.I.C.E. in That Hideous Strength. I think we need to face the fact that, although we don't want it, it really is "us vs. them".

Chesterton said:

I wish it were possible to dis-integrate. Forgive my brazenness, but whatever the political terms "right" and "left" originally meant, I believe they now mean the difference between good and evil, and the difference between wisdom and foolishness. The Left represents the antichrist's world system in the book of Revelation, Big Brother in 1984, and the N.I.C.E. in That Hideous Strength. I think we need to face the fact that, although we don't want it, it really is "us vs. them".

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You're going down a dangerous and false path of dissension and strife. I'll just say that prophecies of disintegration tend to be self-fulfilling. And just a note for your safety, disregard dullards promoting conspiracy theories, that's how people get roped into radical conservative terror like the 1/6 insurrection or at the very least nonsense like "stolen election" idiocy.

Chesterton said:

I wish it were possible to dis-integrate. Forgive my brazenness, but whatever the political terms "right" and "left" originally meant, I believe they now mean the difference between good and evil, and the difference between wisdom and foolishness. The Left represents the antichrist's world system in the book of Revelation, Big Brother in 1984, and the N.I.C.E. in That Hideous Strength. I think we need to face the fact that, although we don't want it, it really is "us vs. them".

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I dunno about this. looking at how the televangelists of the world treated President Trump, especially how they reacted to his loss, shows the Left doesn't have a monopoly on being duped by the demons.

gzt said:

that's how people get roped into radical conservative terror like the 1/6 insurrection

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A large group of unarmed civilians is "radical conservative terror"? Sounds like you are the one falling for the conspiracy theories.

or at the very least nonsense like "stolen election" idiocy

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I'm an Aussie living in Sydney with no dog in this fight, and it is absolutely plain to me that there was major fraud involved in the election of Biden and Harris.

rusmeister said:

I do appreciate that, even though I lean the other way.
In light of what this thread is ostensibly about, it's the inability of many people to even hear the concerns of the side they have less sympathy towards. I have less sympathy towards masks - and it's not mere prejudice, but both personal experience, certain bits of knowledge, and the dark side of masks - and even obedience would have to be qualified for me. But I can see where you are coming from. In my parish we have division aplenty, but people seem pretty tolerant of each other (in regards to, but not limited to masks, for example. There are signs up everywhere mandating them that are now ignored by a clear majority en masse, including in our church). I think that in such things, we ought to obey our conscience (as you are) and not judge others who think differently. The problem is, some see that issue as dogmatically as most (but sadly, not all) of us see, say, sexual morality, either that masks ought to be mandated for all, or forbidden altogether, because of what they believe.

But I do think that there is at least a 90% alignment of the attitudes toward such things in general with the attitude I described above toward tradition vs the claims of modern science (and the education that produces it), again, allowing for exceptions.

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Agree. Personally, I always thought masks should have been voluntary, with the exception of using them in areas where people are ill (sneezing, coughing, etc.), visiting hospitals, nursing homes, or places like the Ronald McDonald House, where people's immune systems are compromised. Seemed like common sense to me. I did wear them in buildings where they were required throughout this whole ordeal. I'm glad in my state the mandatory wearing of masks ended about three weeks ago by my governor. It's nice to see people's faces again, especially at church. Only about a handful still wear them there.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

On the other hand, to be a good right-winger, you have to refuse to wear a mask and think "they're controlling us!" all the time, believe every meme you read on Facebook that makes the left look bad even if it's a fake quote, think COVID was a conspiracy and fake all along, believe all conspiracies even if they contradict each other, think everyone is a commie, proclaim the election was stolen, and play the macho card like your life depended on it.

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Actually, there are independents and some left-winged progressives that think the masks are not necessary.

rusmeister said:

I agree with you on a lot here, though I think that there is a distinct imbalance and so while your characterization of the Left is largely correct both in terms of party platforms and the general direction and thrust of things, your characterization of the right is not so objectively descriptive (given that I don't think the political right to be right, either), but more caricaturish. Leftists really do believe in their identity politics and conception of equality; the average right-winger does NOT think Covid to be fake or that he must believe all memes that attack the Left.

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Yes. Apparently you can't be somewhere in the middle that believes Covid is real but also thinks certain measures were extreme. That one can not want to take a shot (vaccine) because she feels she doesn't need one since she's not one with comorbidities and the like. Not because of any idea of a microchip or the antichrist, which I don't believe that the shot is either one. But it's immediately assumed I must believe in those things because of my stance on the shot (vaccine). In any case, I do agree with gurney that everything is in the extreme. My views that are somewhere in between don't matter. If I were to share my thoughts, I'd be slammed as a right-winger or a left-winger, depending on the person. There is a lot of division going on, which only benefits one being - the enemy.

prodromos said:

A large group of unarmed civilians is "radical conservative terror"? Sounds like you are the one falling for the conspiracy theories.

I'm an Aussie living in Sydney with no dog in this fight, and it is absolutely plain to me that there was major fraud involved in the election of Biden and Harris.

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uh no

But the problem I have is the "I believe" the election was stolen really is just not an argument. There is no hard data. No hard facts. Dozens of judges, most of whom were Trump-appointed, threw out these accusations of fraud and they were summarily rejected. It's not as if all these far left liberals dumped the cases trying to hide something. These conservative judges jettisoned these accusations as nonsense. They were so absurd that they were not even taken to a hearing.

Where do we hear all this fraud from? A pillow manufacturer? A hysterical lawyer claiming she's going to "unleash the Kracken?" Rudy Giuliani? There was just no evidence. Vice President Pence felt there was nothing there, and he truly had a stake in all this.

I can't stand Kamala Harris!!! I cannot fathom how much I detest Joe Biden. I loathed Biden back in the days of him going after Judge Thomas and Bork and the gang! Harris got to where she is through bed-hopping. These two are absolutely vile to me. I voted twice for Trump. That said, I don't see any evidence that Trump had the rug pulled out from underneath him.

Here's how I do see it....and if this is derailing this thread, then so be it. The OP can jump on my case for it, but I think politics is at the heart of this thread. Everything now is political, parishes aren't immune. Far more Americans are Democrats than Republicans. It's just a fact. Tons of registered Democrats. For years, the best friend of Republican operatives is APATHY on the left. Fact is Republicans often times come out with more zeal to vote despite their slightly smaller numbers. While they are somewhat larger in size, the Democratic voters do not come out with much passion and vote. Obama was an exception because of the historic possibilities of that election in itself. Normally, Democrats are less mobilized. And Republicans have been known to work out their own voter suppression----not allowing folks with P.O. boxes to vote.....hmmmm....so Native Americans get turned away in the 11th hour. Ballot harvesting in the Georgia election for governor was rampant and Stacy Abrams, not a person I care for in the least, lost. While I dislike her politics, I do believe her opponent used nefarious means to defeat her based on facts on the ground. He himself took over the voting process in his capacity at the state level and dumped hundreds of thousands of black folks off the docket. He created a law where anyone who hadn't voted in x amount of years would be dropped from the registry. So, blacks showed up to vote, and....hmmmmm they're not registered? Interesting. The guy barely beats her. Gerrymandering, all sorts of things have helped Republicans.......

That being said, the COVID phenomenon gave the Democrats something they've lusted for going on years now---the chance to reach every single voter! Mail-in ballots! The lazy folks who don't want to leave the house---voted. The folks living in low-cost housing who normally are apathetic---voted. The minorities who might not have voted---did. The left reached a ton of voters this time using mail-in ballots.

Republicans tend to be anecdotal, and I think this is what destroyed them. It goes something like this (and I know you'll accuse me of caricature, old friend, but that's ok!) "Boy, on the way home from work today, I saw this Trump rally! Sucker had to have around 30,000 people, honey! Meanwhile, that Biden rally cross town only had like 100 people! Biden is going to get WOMPED!" Ok, so this argument is: folks openly declaring a candidate will win.

Rewind to 2016.....Trump voters were quiet. If you called them on the phone with polling, they'd decline to state. Very mysterious. Very guarded. Very quiet. Hillary had some good-sized rallies! Trump had some big ones. But tons of people openly shouted from the roof tops that they're pro-Hillary. Trump voters were quiet or said nothing at all. Then Trump won!

So, is it just possible that rally sizes and loud-mouthed declarations of voting plans aren't tantamount to an assurance of victory? Trump voters now say, "I'm telling you---Trump WON! His rallies were huge, man! Posters everywhere! Trump flags all over downtown! NOthing for Biden! He stole it! He flat took it!"

Or maybe this time the Biden folks were quiet and numerous and got out the vote?

Nothing in the way of evidence, numbers, etc. prove the election was stolen. So, being a person of facts, data, evidence, and support for positions, I cannot in good conscience say it was stolen. Frankly, I wish it would've been stolen and there WERE evidence! I want Trump back. But I cannot make up fake evidence. Wishing something is so, does not make it so.

As for my comments on conspiracy, I do not think they are caricature. I must tell you, I am a member of a couple gun forums and conservative forums. You would not believe, Rus, what these guys believe and say. Seriously, my friend, you wouldn't believe it. And, as you often tell us, "You guys don't know as much about Russia as I do as I live here and you all don't" I must gently say, since you've expatriated, you're cut off from what goes on here. All you hear is TV and anecdotes. You don't hear the stuff on the ground. I live in the epicenter of Tea Party/hardcore right wingville, CA. It's more conservative in my town than Texas! Every "caricature" I made is legit. A massive amount of folks in my town think COVID is fake, a bunch think it's just a dumb flu, many think they had it despite not being tested, a ton of them think doctors are out to dupe them, the vast majority see conspiracies in everything.

And yes, these guys DO believe memes, Rus. I'm serious, my friend. Very very serious. In this one gun forum I'm in, I have to correct these guys on a DAILY BASIS about memes! Abraham Lincoln warned about the rise of gun control in the 21st century, Mark Twain said that Hitler would rise to power, Hitler said socialism will enter America through a fake disease, you name it! They believe it all, too! I have to tell them over and over that this stuff is made-up. Then they accuse me of being a liberal for "fact-checking" them too much.


The above meme is a great example. Phony narrative that Jill was Joe's babysitter and he was cradle-robbing back in the day. They met on a blind date in 1975 in real life. The whole thing was shown to be nonsense, yet you'd be disturbed to see how many bought it and re-tweeted or shared it as this big deal.


Or this little gem. Some black militants invaded the California capitol at Sacramento, and the convenient "US Capitol" is placed here. It gets re-tweeted and everyone jumps on the "Hey, why are we getting yelled at for invading the capitol building? It was done right here in 1967!?!" Problem is, it wasn't. This one was all over the place. Folks do drink this Kool Aid, Rus. I wish they didn't.

I'm a William Buckley/Victor Davis Hanson conservative. I miss the intelligent, well-reasoned, thoughtful, reflective Republican arguments, not the speculative hocus pocus and paranoia brand we see now. I understand where it comes from and why, but the Jewish space lasers and grand conspiracies of alien DNA in the vaccine, it grows as tiresome to me as the gender-swapping, child-sexualizing, drug-legalizing, abortion-loving, cross-dressing, sexual transaction-minded far left and their hysterics.

I'm sick of both parties.

rusmeister said:

I agree with you on a lot here, though I think that there is a distinct imbalance and so while your characterization of the Left is largely correct both in terms of party platforms and the general direction and thrust of things, your characterization of the right is not so objectively descriptive (given that I don't think the political right to be right, either), but more caricaturish. Leftists really do believe in their identity politics and conception of equality; the average right-winger does NOT think Covid to be fake or that he must believe all memes that attack the Left.

That said, I generally agree with you. I didn't want to make it about masks: I DO believe the election was stolen: I DO believe there is such a thing as conspiracies, the entire question is whether the conspiracy is false or true, and the use of the term "conspiracy theory" (like "discrimination", "tolerance", etc) has become a term for Pavlov's dogs, intended to call up an immediate and negative reaction that short-circuits and fails to think about that question, but leaves the speaker imagining that he has thought. But I think it inappropriate to argue (in the intelligent sense) about the matter here. Here it is enough to establish that you disagree with others in your church and think them unreasonable, and that they similarly disagree with you and think you unreasonable. I don't agree with either position; I think it is possible to be reasonable, though "reasonable" does NOT mean "agree with me". So we can resist this tendency toward falling apart by looking for reasonable and lucid moments in those we disagree with; to see what could be right in those we think wrong.

Or we can write everyone on the other side off as unreasonable, and accelerate the disintegration process.

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I have heard of independents hating the masks, but I have yet to meet a lefty who doesn't love them.

Dorothea said:

Actually, there are independents and some left-winged progressives that think the masks are not necessary.

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Gurney, I think the point that needs to be made in this thread is NOT that I’m right, or you’re right, or even who’s wrong (my hard data was my own eyes and own brain watching the steal in real time - you can’t tell an eyewitness that he didn’t see what he saw), but that people can ONLY see their own point of view. I grasp why people disagree with me. In some cases it is more partisan and unreasonable, in others it is reasonable doubt that hasn’t (at least, yet) been convinced by the things that HAVE convinced me. If one thinks the people who disagree with one are merely unreasonable, then that’s the end. The name for that attitude is bigotry.