Orthodox view on Catholicism

ArmyMatt

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I'd say your understanding is correct, except for the part I underlined. God's "choice" is to save everybody except those who will otherwise, who choose their own way, their own sins, and will not give them up. He acknowledges THEIR choice. And this is certainly what we "officially" teach. No matter what, go on repenting and turning away from yourself and your sins, even when you fall, get up again and again until your dying breath. But if you want the fullness, and not just the superficials of faith, then yes, you would need to become Orthodox, entering a Church full of seriously messed-up people, not all of which have Orthodoxy even mostly right in their own heads. We all need to surrender our idea that "we (always) know better", and come to trust in an Authority that knows more than we do.

I don't mean to nitpick, but I think it's better to say He wills to save all and has done all things to save man because God doesn't choose (i.e. deliberate) as He only wills the good for us. and then we can choose to submit to His will or not.
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="East of Eden,

If you'll allow a Protestant to respond, I agree, I consider the RCC a very corrupted church body. Just look at today, the German Catholic Church just blessed gay marriages I believe, that would never happen in your church, correct?

A simple reading of the history of Christianity will show that this is not new. The problems in the Church began when the pagan Franks schemed to insert the Filioque Clause into the Creed. The Franks were from what is now Germany. Seems that Germany has been a serious problem for a long time.
 
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FenderTL5

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I just realized I have majorly veered off my own topic... lol... I was going to delete that last post and start a new thread and entitle it Orthodox view on Protestants (Baptists). But I cannot delete it...
Given the topic; I don't think it totally out of line. As I understand it, you are a protestant looking for the differences in Roman Catholicism and EO. The next step in that is to compare/Contrast that against your own understandings.

Thanks... looks like catechisms don't contain everything in confessions.

I am sure I can find protestant denominations that differ on points here but for simplicity I will be associating Baptists specifically with Protestants...

So the main differences between Orthodox and Protestant Baptists are:

1) Sola Scripture

2) Viewing the Holy Trinity through the lense of the filioque

3) View of Original Sin and the Atonement

4) Requiring the person being baptised to be old enough to make a conscious choice

5) Apostolic succession and tradition not recognized

6) Salvation through Faith alone versus Faith and works

7) The Eucharist and Baptism being Symbolic

On a latter note, I was reading through that catechism and came to the conclusion that many churches today, even though they call themselves Baptists, do preach something different on at least one point. I see that, even with the Roman Catholic church at times; if the teaching is bad enough these churches and priests will get excommunicated. Nothing like that with Baptists. If Orthodox allows the local bishops certain independent power, the Baptists allow the locals an enormous amount of independent power. To the point as to whether excommunication is at all used. So perhaps I should put excommunication in that list... Although, I do think that excommunication with Baptists does exist but only when extreme like allowing gay marriage.
Your enumerated items 6 and 7 need further clarification.
In item 6, I don't see EO fitting the typical faith vs faith and works discussion you see in differing protestant groups. EO would also hold fast to Ephesians 2:8-10, "It is by Grace you are saved through faith.."
The difference is in the way some of those words are understood. ie What is "Grace?"
In the Baptist churches I attended for 50 years, Grace was viewed more akin to being mercy on steroids. Grace being a hyper version of mercy (I can give illustrations if needed).
In Orthodox understanding, Grace is the energies and working of the Holy Trinity.

Secondly, what is "Faith?" Not in all cases but in most, Baptist would define faith as deeply seated belief or perhaps simply quote Hebrews 11:1 and stop there.
Orthodoxy would also point to the book of James as a definition of faith, that being a "living faith" that encompasses more than mere belief but how one responds and acts on that belief.

With that in mind, Ephesians 2:8 can be understood differently, "It is by God's energies/working you are saved, through a living faith.."
The saving is all God, but God responds to our sincere, living faith. Works in and of themselves are useless, but are necessary if the faith is real.
The only time in Holy Scripture the word alone follows the word faith, as-in "faith alone," is in James Chapter 2 (emphasis added) "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?
..You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."


In item 7, what you said is not untrue. It is incomplete. The Orthodox Church is Sacramental. Baptist churches are not. The Eucharist and Baptism are two (very important) Sacraments of the Orthodox Church. Baptist reject Sacraments altogether and refer to the Lord's Supper and Baptism as "ordinances" of a symbolic nature.

The Orthodox Church is Liturgical, Baptist are not.. so the list could go on.

I am not the best source for comparing/contrasting everything Catholic/Protestant vs Eastern Orthodoxy. However, there is a great reference that respectfully does just that. It is written from an Eastern Orthodox perspective.
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy - Discover how Orthodox Christianity and non-Orthodox doctrine differ and why it matters to your spiritual journey.
I can recommend the book very highly. If, on the other hand, blog or podcast is more to your liking most of the material is available here: Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy podcast (note: the episodes are in reverse order, with last one at the top of the page)

On the thread topic, you could isolate the various faith groups you are most interested in. The section on RC is in 4 parts (Rome 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b), however, I do think the Introduction and History are prerequisite (my opinion).

Godspeed your journey.
 
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Light of the East

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Just to add to what Fender said (and if I get this wrong, someone correct me), the idea in Protestantism is that you encounter Christ through the activity of the mind. This is why you can find in Protestantism, mostly the Anabaptist and Evangelical types, people who have memorized yards and yards of Scripture and can spew it out upon demand. Those kinds of people are admired as having a "close walk with Jesus."

As I see it, this is an offshoot of the scholasticism of Rome that developed over the centuries. It is part and parcel of the legal idea of salvation found in the West. Salvation is seen as a once-and-done thing and then you simply deepen your knowledge of Jesus by memorizing Scripture.

The Sacraments are the manner in which Christ actually enters into a very personal relationship with us. Salvation is about growing in Christlikeness, putting off the old man and putting on the new, as St. Paul admonishes us. There is a real and constant struggle within which needs not memorization of facts, but a living relationship with the One who can change us within and make us like Him, which is the goal of the Christian life.

I would say, to use an anaology found in Scripture - marriage - that Protestantism is like sitting in your living room, looking at the marriage certificate, and saying, "Yes, I am married" while memorizing and thinking about each word.

Orthodoxy is the reality of the marriage - the nuptial bed and living every day in serving the other.
 
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BNR32FAN

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What is the orthodox view on catholicism? If my understand is correct you do believe that the church in Rome held a primacy in the early church. But this primacy was mainly due to both Peter and Paul founding the church in Rome and because Rome, being the capital back then, served as a central hub.

Peter & Paul planted several churches and appointed several successors. This may help explain.

https://www.britannica.com/eventSchism-of-1054

This might also be helpful

Pentarchy | Christianity

Something to consider is after all the smoke cleared from the schism 4 of the 5 patriarchs adopted the name Orthodox and the bishop of Rome was completely alone.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I'll give a simple analogy to illustrate my view on the Roman church.

Say you have five friends. One morning they all decide to meet later for lunch at Denny's. Also, they agree that they will not change this decision to meet for lunch at Denny's. Lunchtime rolls around, and four of the guys show up at Denny's. The missing guys calls them and says "Hey, I'm over at IHOP. I decided we should meet at IHOP."

That guy at IHOP is the Roman church. :D

I think you meant the missing guy not missing guys because 4 of the 5 patriarchs met at Denny’s it was the bishop of Rome who was all alone at IHOP. :(
 
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Chesterton

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I think you meant the missing guy not missing guys because 4 of the 5 patriarchs met at Denny’s it was the bishop of Rome who was all along at IHOP. ;)
Ah yes, that was a typo. Thanks, I'll correct it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The saving is all God, but God responds to our sincere, living faith. Works in and of themselves are useless, but are necessary if the faith is real

Is it really the works or is it the motivation behind the works? I’m inclined to think it’s the latter.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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FenderTL5

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Is it really the works or is it the motivation behind the works? I’m inclined to think it’s the latter.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
I think both.
Unless the motivation is holy, then the work is of no benefit ( ie charity or prayers to get earthly recognition). Likewise, doing nothing no matter your motivation is not beneficial.
 
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Christislove

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Given the topic; I don't think it totally out of line. As I understand it, you are a protestant looking for the differences in Roman Catholicism and EO. The next step in that is to compare/Contrast that against your own understandings.


Your enumerated items 6 and 7 need further clarification.
In item 6, I don't see EO fitting the typical faith vs faith and works discussion you see in differing protestant groups. EO would also hold fast to Ephesians 2:8-10, "It is by Grace you are saved through faith.."
The difference is in the way some of those words are understood. ie What is "Grace?"
In the Baptist churches I attended for 50 years, Grace was viewed more akin to being mercy on steroids. Grace being a hyper version of mercy (I can give illustrations if needed).
In Orthodox understanding, Grace is the energies and working of the Holy Trinity.

Secondly, what is "Faith?" Not in all cases but in most, Baptist would define faith as deeply seated belief or perhaps simply quote Hebrews 11:1 and stop there.
Orthodoxy would also point to the book of James as a definition of faith, that being a "living faith" that encompasses more than mere belief but how one responds and acts on that belief.

With that in mind, Ephesians 2:8 can be understood differently, "It is by God's energies/working you are saved, through a living faith.."
The saving is all God, but God responds to our sincere, living faith. Works in and of themselves are useless, but are necessary if the faith is real.
The only time in Holy Scripture the word alone follows the word faith, as-in "faith alone," is in James Chapter 2 (emphasis added) "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?
..You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Thanks, very detailed and in-depth...

One of the guys that I routinely go to for information on evangelicals is Dr. William Lane Craig; he is well respected by Orthodox around the globe. His position to this issue is his answer to a question on this webpage:
Faith and Works | Reasonable Faith.

Below is the main quote that I can find from that page:

"But in Christianity, good deeds are the necessary concomitant or outflow of sincere faith, not meritorious deeds done for the sake of salvation. Good deeds are the evidence of genuine, living faith, and in the absence of such deeds so-called faith is dead (James 2.17).

So you are terribly mistaken when you say, “If I am an evangelical Christian, . . . I will still get salvation no matter how many acts of adultery I have committed.” No! A person who lives a life of immorality while confessing Christ is a hypocrite whose faith is dead and useless. Good deeds are a necessary condition of salvation in a logical sense, in that, necessarily, if someone has saving faith, then he will do good deeds"

Does the Orthodox disagree with anything he said? He also includes James which is needed to have a full understanding of this.

In item 7, what you said is not untrue. It is incomplete. The Orthodox Church is Sacramental. Baptist churches are not. The Eucharist and Baptism are two (very important) Sacraments of the Orthodox Church. Baptist reject Sacraments altogether and refer to the Lord's Supper and Baptism as "ordinances" of a symbolic nature.

The Orthodox Church is Liturgical, Baptist are not.. so the list could go on.

Yeah, that list would be very long. My plan is to find the most important differences and then research that; trying to be as unbiased as I can while adhering to the rules of logic. I like to tell myself that we are all biased, either for or against something. And I should try to see where that bias lies beforehand; and make myself "biased for truth".

I am not the best source for comparing/contrasting everything Catholic/Protestant vs Eastern Orthodoxy. However, there is a great reference that respectfully does just that. It is written from an Eastern Orthodox perspective.
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy - Discover how Orthodox Christianity and non-Orthodox doctrine differ and why it matters to your spiritual journey.
I can recommend the book very highly. If, on the other hand, blog or podcast is more to your liking most of the material is available here: Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy podcast (note: the episodes are in reverse order, with last one at the top of the page)

On the thread topic, you could isolate the various faith groups you are most interested in. The section on RC is in 4 parts (Rome 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b), however, I do think the Introduction and History are prerequisite (my opinion).

Godspeed your journey.
 
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East of Eden

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The Sacraments are the manner in which Christ actually enters into a very personal relationship with us. Salvation is about growing in Christlikeness, putting off the old man and putting on the new, as St. Paul admonishes us. There is a real and constant struggle within which needs not memorization of facts, but a living relationship with the One who can change us within and make us like Him, which is the goal of the Christian life.

I'm not disputing that, but would add there are millions of protestants who do have a relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, with very little if any notion of the Sacraments. Many Muslims are coming to faith and a personal relationship with Jesus after having a vision of Jesus. It is estimated that a third of converted former Muslims have had a vision of Jesus, no Sacraments involved.

On the other hand here are a group of Orthodox from the past in very poor spiritual condition despite lots of Sacramental activity going on. From a book I just finished by Alexandre Dumas, "Adventures in Czarist Russia":

"Russian clergy are in general incredibly ignorant.......the parish priest, with little or no education, teaches the children what he knows - usually nothing; a few such teachers may be able to read, write and do simple arithmetic; the really erudite know something of sacred history and can discourse upon it. A promising novice may win a place in the seminary, where he learns grammar, logic and swearing. A Russian priest has a more fluent command of profanity than a French sneak-thief, a German horsefaker or an English boxer!

The lower clergy are notorious for drunkenness and gluttony, not to mention other more venial depravities, yet everyone seems to treat them with respect -outwardly at least."

As James said, faith without works is dead, can such 'depraved' people even be called Christians, let alone the laity they led? I'm not saying this is the case today, when there was a state church it was probably similar to what happened in the Church of England, where men took Holy Orders because it was a stable living, not due to any particular spiritual calling, perhaps why Stalin became a seminary student in his early life.

My point is there are genuine believers from non-Sacramental churches with a real relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, and those from Sacramental churches who do not. I saw this often growing up in the Chicago area with many cultural Catholics, and if I can say so with members of Orthodox churches for whom it was merely a cultural affiliation. I only wish the Orthodox would know some of these Christlike protestants, and vice versa. Too many protestants immediately shut off anyone in a black robe, whatever the denomination.

And yes, I'm sure you can find cultural Baptists in parts of the US too.

As far as the Bible, I don't think we have anything to apologize for for being quite familiar with the Word of God. You can study it for a lifetime and not begin to plumb it's depths. Jesus extensively quoted Scripture, and often criticized the Jewish leadership for not knowing the Scriptures, or living by them.
 
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Valletta

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I'm not disputing that, but would add there are millions of protestants who do have a relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, with very little if any notion of the Sacraments. Many Muslims are coming to faith and a personal relationship with Jesus after having a vision of Jesus. It is estimated that a third of converted former Muslims have had a vision of Jesus, no Sacraments involved.

On the other hand here are a group of Orthodox from the past in very poor spiritual condition despite lots of Sacramental activity going on. From a book I just finished by Alexandre Dumas, "Adventures in Czarist Russia":

"Russian clergy are in general incredibly ignorant.......the parish priest, with little or no education, teaches the children what he knows - usually nothing; a few such teachers may be able to read, write and do simple arithmetic; the really erudite know something of sacred history and can discourse upon it. A promising novice may win a place in the seminary, where he learns grammar, logic and swearing. A Russian priest has a more fluent command of profanity than a French sneak-thief, a German horsefaker or an English boxer!

The lower clergy are notorious for drunkenness and gluttony, not to mention other more venial depravities, yet everyone seems to treat them with respect -outwardly at least."

As James said, faith without works is dead, can such 'depraved' people even be called Christians, let alone the laity they led? I'm not saying this is the case today, when there was a state church it was probably similar to what happened in the Church of England, where men took Holy Orders because it was a stable living, not due to any particular spiritual calling, perhaps why Stalin became a seminary student in his early life.

My point is there are genuine believers from non-Sacramental churches with a real relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, and those from Sacramental churches who do not. I saw this often growing up in the Chicago area with many cultural Catholics, and if I can say so with members of Orthodox churches for whom it was merely a cultural affiliation. I only wish the Orthodox would know some of these Christlike protestants, and vice versa. Too many protestants immediately shut off anyone in a black robe, whatever the denomination.

And yes, I'm sure you can find cultural Baptists in parts of the US too.

As far as the Bible, I don't think we have anything to apologize for for being quite familiar with the Word of God. You can study it for a lifetime and not begin to plumb it's depths. Jesus extensively quoted Scripture, and often criticized the Jewish leadership for not knowing the Scriptures, or living by them.
Why assume a a French adventure writer's opinion about Russian clergy as historical fact? That being said, there are good and bad clergy and they will be sorted out on Judgment Day. While John 6: 52-58 says: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my Flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever” that does not mean that people within non-sacramental religions cannot have a person relationship with Jesus. Also being a cultural-only member of a Church while not following the Word of God can be a ticket to hell.
 
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Christislove

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As James said, faith without works is dead, can such 'depraved' people even be called Christians, let alone the laity they led?


Can you expound more on what Baptists mean by faith-only and how a Baptist would respond to someone criticizing the faith-only espoused by John Macarthur:



I'm not saying this is the case today, when there was a state church it was probably similar to what happened in the Church of England, where men took Holy Orders because it was a stable living, not due to any particular spiritual calling, perhaps why Stalin became a seminary student in his early life.


Very true... I view the time before Christianity gained power as the time where I can have greater faith in its practices. I think when Christianity gained power many people sought these offices because of the power and finances/possessions they offered and not because of pure reasons... Not saying this was universal I am just saying that where you find corrupt popes is when the pope had lots of power in the world. God is in control of everything and this could be one of the reasons why He allowed it to be persecuted for the first 300 years.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think both.
Unless the motivation is holy, then the work is of no benefit ( ie charity or prayers to get earthly recognition). Likewise, doing nothing no matter your motivation is not beneficial.

Perhaps, but I often think of the thief on the cross who didn’t have the opportunity to do works. I think he did what he could given his situation and I’m confident that given the opportunity he would’ve done more good works because of the repentant state of his heart. I think that many people stumble on this topic because as humans we have a tendency to see things as more black & white whereas God can see the grey areas in everyone. For example if Jesus hadn’t said to the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with The Lord this day then no one would’ve had any clue that the thief was destined to be saved by examining the evidence of his works. In this case I don’t believe it was his works that was the deciding factor in his salvation.
 
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Valletta

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Perhaps, but I often think of the thief on the cross who didn’t have the opportunity to do works. I think he did what he could given his situation and I’m confident that given the opportunity he would’ve done more good works because of the repentant state of his heart. I think that many people stumble on this topic because as humans we have a tendency to see things as more black & white whereas God can see the grey areas in everyone. For example if Jesus hadn’t said to the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with The Lord this day then no one would’ve had any clue that the thief was destined to be saved by examining the evidence of his works. In this case I don’t believe it was his works that was the deciding factor in his salvation.
The story of Saint Dismas shows us the great mercy of Our Lord.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Perhaps, but I often think of the thief on the cross who didn’t have the opportunity to do works. I think he did what he could given his situation and I’m confident that given the opportunity he would’ve done more good works because of the repentant state of his heart. I think that many people stumble on this topic because as humans we have a tendency to see things as more black & white whereas God can see the grey areas in everyone. For example if Jesus hadn’t said to the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with The Lord this day then no one would’ve had any clue that the thief was destined to be saved by examining the evidence of his works. In this case I don’t believe it was his works that was the deciding factor in his salvation.

unless his open confession of Christ and his rebuke of the other thief would count as a work, because it was something he did.
 
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Not saying this was universal I am just saying that where you find corrupt popes is when the pope had lots of power in the world. God is in control of everything and this could be one of the reasons why He allowed it to be persecuted for the first 300 years.

The most corrupt era of the papacy was around the 11th century when the population of Rome fell under 20k people and the noble families of Rome (such as Theophylacts of Rome) were able to install their own friends in the position. There was an overall decay in Roman society due to cultural transitions and government policies which included crazy taxation making everyone move to the countryside.

think when Christianity gained power many people sought these offices because of the power and finances/possessions they offered and not because of pure reasons...

While this is true, rules are put into effect to weed out bad candidates. Canons are pretty strict on impediments to ordination.
If we take a modern example such as a country like Greece where clergy are civil servants. It's still relatively the same scandals every sect still face with corrupt clergy which is usually moral failings. Greece is a country with perpetual high unemployment and the only stable institutions being the Church and the Military many opt to enter them. Obviously it's easier to catch and filter out a bad soldier, hard to hide insubordination and being out of shape. You won't really find riches joining the clergy but you may find a stable job with a long shelf life and beats working olive groves in the villages. They're are of course interviews and requirements prior to ordination and even being accepted into seminary. Also many of the bad clergy become known through word of mouth and probably will never run a parish. At the end of the day whether a state church ( not talking about communist style take over of a religion) or one totally free of it makes little difference on the level of corruption.
 
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