70 Weeks of Daniel

sovereigngrace

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Open to all views, present evidence then make your case:
Daniel's Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

Daniel 9:21-24: “while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

So why then, in the same chapter, would we decapitate the 70 weeks and propel it into the unknown?

Every sensible theologian of all end-times views see these initial seventy years in Daniel 9 congruent and sequential, why would see the "seventy weeks" any different?

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 
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sovereigngrace

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2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Was this a response to me? If so, what is your point?
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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The point is really simple. Daniel prophecized based on visions from God. God's measure of time is not man's measure, and not based on a 360 degree axial rotation of Earth.

70 weeks was bifurcated by both the prophet Daniel in his own prophecy and by the Lord Jesus Christ when Israel rejected their (and our) savior. Otherwise, the 70th period of 7 years would have been consecutive as you allude, but that chain was broken by the defiance of the Israelites, which is why Daniel was very specific in his prophecy of the split 600 years in advance.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Why otherwise did Daniel partition the weeks as he did?

Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Man cannot fathom the infinite, the concept of space-time having a beginning, and what eternity is like. Not really. We can conceptualize with abstract mathematics like dividing 1/0 = infinity, but we cannot truly imagine the omnipotent, omniscient mind of the Lord of all creation. No more than my persian cat can understand fractions or algebra or the difference between Mozart and Beethoven.

I used to love to play golf, so I had a disturbing thought one day that made me ponder the infinite. What if, given an infinite amount of time, I could play every golf course even if God made courses on every planet in every galaxy. Sooner or later, a lot later, I would have played every possible stroke, every possible course, every possible game given infinite time. Then I had the thought that if God can make the universe all new, He could also make new golf courses until eternity, so that no matter how often I played, I would never run out of golf shots. Yes it is a silly example, and I hope to have better things to do in Heaven than just playing golf, but it just goes to show how unimaginable the depths of the Lord's creation and the eternity of His being is. Limited, human man, no matter how high his or her IQ, even an IQ of 100,000 can only ever be a singular limited point of consciousness, and we cannot ever compare ourselves to the Lord God almighty. Just because we are head of the Earth food chain does not mean we can dare compare our abilities EVER to the Lord's. Even 100,000 divided by infinity is zero, the same as zero divided by infinity is zero.
 
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DavidPT

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As to the topic of this thread, the logic seems simple to me. Daniel 9:27 is meaning the entire 70th week. Therefore, that verse alone proves there is a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks. The way some try and get around that, they insist that all of verse 27 is not meaning the 70th week, only half of it is, the first half.

But I don't believe in rebuilt temples in the future in order to fulfill verse 27, though. There are other ways to understand some of these things besides in the literal sense. For example, 2 Thessalonians 2:4. That involves a temple, and that I take that passage to be future still, yet I don't take the temple meant, in the literal sense. There may have been a time in the past when I did, but I no longer do. And speaking of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, I see it correlating with the last half of Daniel 9:27 myself.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Good link Jeff. Here is a timeline to go with it:

daniels-70-weeks.png
 
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sovereigngrace

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The point is really simple. Daniel prophecized based on visions from God. God's measure of time is not man's measure, and not based on a 360 degree axial rotation of Earth.

70 weeks was bifurcated by both the prophet Daniel in his own prophecy and by the Lord Jesus Christ when Israel rejected their (and our) savior. Otherwise, the 70th period of 7 years would have been consecutive as you allude, but that chain was broken by the defiance of the Israelites, which is why Daniel was very specific in his prophecy of the split 600 years in advance.

Could you answer my question?

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

For example: what thousand years are not congruent and sequential?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why otherwise did Daniel partition the weeks as he did?

Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.

Is there any division in time between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks?
 
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DavidPT

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Could you answer my question?

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

For example: what thousand years are not congruent and sequential?



If Daniel 9:27 is meaning the 70th week, meaning all of that verse, and that one takes Christ to be the one fulfilling the midst of the week, it is then ludicrous to think there are no gaps in the 70 weeks when there obviously would be a gap in the middle of the 70th week in this scenario. This part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate----couldn't possibly be something that takes place within 3.5 years after the cross, therefore a gap is required in order to not result in nonsense.
 
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sovereigngrace

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If Daniel 9:27 is meaning the 70th week, meaning all of that verse, and that one takes Christ to be the one fulfilling the midst of the week, it is then ludicrous to think there are no gaps in the 70 weeks when there obviously would be a gap in the middle of the 70th week in this scenario. This part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate----couldn't possibly be something that takes place within 3.5 years after the cross, therefore a gap is required in order to not result in nonsense.

Not so. The overspending is a result of the cross-work. It rendered the temple useless. Nowhere does it say it is within the 70 weeks. The temple will be desolate until the climactic return of Christ.
 
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DavidPT

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Not so. The overspending is a result of the cross-work. It rendered the temple useless. Nowhere does it say it is within the 70 weeks. The temple will be desolate until the climactic return of Christ.


My arguments are based on Daniel 9:27 being the 70th week, meaning all of that verse. No one can or would dispute that Daniel 9:27 involves the 70th week, yet some dispute it involves the entire week, though. I don't know why, though? The 70th week obviously has to have an end to it, and clearly the midst of the week is not the end of the week, it is only half of the week. But that verse does tell us when it ends and how it ends---even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Is one going to argue that consummation doesn't mean the end of something? What are we looking for the end of in Daniel 9? Is it not the 70 weeks? The 70 weeks can't end until the 70th week ends first. And according to the 2nd half of Daniel 9:27, those abominable things continue even until the consummation, IOW, until the end of the 70th week.
 
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Douggg

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Not so. The overspending is a result of the cross-work. It rendered the temple useless. Nowhere does it say it is within the 70 weeks. The temple will be desolate until the climactic return of Christ.
The temple will be made desolate by the time of the end vision of the little horn in Daniel 8. There are 2300 time of the end days associated with that vision. The 2300 days need to fit within the 70th week.





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Jeffwhosoever

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upload_2021-6-4_1-59-56.png
Daniel’s Seventy Weeks Prophecy — Rock of Ages Church
At the Beginning & End of the First 69 Weeks

Daniel 9:25-26 (NASB) - "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The countdown would begin on the day when the decree to rebuild the broken walls of Jerusalem was issued. This event happened 93 years later after Daniel was given the vision. A Persian king, Artaxerxes Longimanus, issued the decree for the Jews to rebuild the broken walls and their beloved city. Based on the date given in Nehemiah 2:1 (the month of Nisan on the twentieth year of Artaxerxes’ reign and assuming it falls on the first day of Nisan in the Jewish calendar),the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, United Kingdom, computed the date to be 14 March 445 B.C.

According to the prophecy, the 70 weeks of years are divided into 3 periods of 7 weeks, 62 weeks and the final 1 week.

At the end of 7 and 62 weeks, which is essentially 69 weeks, “the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.” 69 weeks of years equal to 483 years(69 x 7) or 173,880 days (69 x 7 x 360). Using 14 March 445 B.C. as the start date, the date for the end of the 69 weeks of years works out to be 6 April A.D. 32.

Fascinatingly, this was the day when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and presented Himself to the Jews as their Messiah. However, the political and religious Jewish leaders rejected Jesus as the prophecy has indicated -- “the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.” They executed Him on a cross. They cut Him down and cut Him off.

Barely 40 years later, “the people of the prince who is to come,” that is, the Roman armies under the command of Titus Vespasianus destroyed the temple and Jerusalem. The formidable Roman military force literally came in like a flood. As Jesus had also prophesied, “not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down” (Matthew 24:2). During the next few decades, the Romans continued to put down guerrilla attempts by small Jewish rebel groups until they banished all the Jews from the land.


The Church Age

After 69 weeks of years, the prophetic clock for Israel stopped ticking. The final one week of Daniel’s 70 weeks was suspended indefinitely. In a sense and prophetically speaking, Israel disappeared from the scene and the church emerged and took centre-stage since then until today. This period is known as the church age. It is also known as the time of the Gentiles. We are living in the church age.

The church is a mystery (Ephesians 5:32). The entity of the church was unknown to the Old Testament saints. No rabbis or scholars anticipated the emergence of the church.


The Final One Week

Daniel 9:27 (NASB) - "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The church age straddles between verse 26 and verse 27. It will come to an end when God decides to rapture the church. On that day, our Lord Jesus will appear in the sky. There will be an element of surprise to it. it will be sudden and unexpected. Suddenly all the faithful Christians will be snatched up by Jesus and caught up to be with Him, and then brought to heaven (I Corinthians 15:51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4;15-17).

When this happens, the last one week (7 years) of Daniel’s 70 weeks of years will kick in. The prophetic clock for Israel, which has stopped for more than 2,000 years, will start ticking again. This is the 7-year tribulation period, which we read in the book of Revelation when God unleashes His wrath and judgement on the inhabitants of the earth.

God will finish His dealing with Israel in this last 7 years and then the end will come. It will be a terrible time of severe judgement for Israel. There will be wars and catastrophic disasters in Israel. This is the consequence of their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah some 2,000 years ago.

Besides the rapture, another political event will also mark the beginning of the final one week of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy. The Anti-Christ will make a covenant with Israel and her enemies guaranteeing her peace and security. However, he will break the covenant and turn against Israel at the 3.5-year mark (“in the middle of the weeks”). He will also set up something sacrilegious, described as “the abomination of desolation” by Jesus (Matthew 24:15)in the rebuilt Jewish temple.

The good news is that finally all the remnants of Israel will be saved (Zechariah 12;10, 13:8-9; Romans 11:26).

At the end of 7 years of Tribulation, Christ Jesus will return to the earth with the armies of heaven, which includes the church (Revelation 19:7-8, 14). He will fight and utterly defeat the Anti-Christ (the beast) and the kings of the earth and all their armies that are gathered to fight Him and Israel (Revelation 19:19-21).

Notice that the church is not present during the 7-year Tribulation period. It is God’s appointed time to deal with Israel and the city of Jerusalem. Meanwhile, the church, which has been raptured 7 years earlier, will return to the earth with Christ Jesus. The church will return as the Bride of Christ (Revelation 19:7-8, 14, 17-18).
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Ephesians 3:4-10
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to enlighten all people as to what the plan of the mystery is which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; 10 so that the multifaceted wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
 
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My arguments are based on Daniel 9:27 being the 70th week, meaning all of that verse. No one can or would dispute that Daniel 9:27 involves the 70th week, yet some dispute it involves the entire week, though. I don't know why, though? The 70th week obviously has to have an end to it, and clearly the midst of the week is not the end of the week, it is only half of the week. But that verse does tell us when it ends and how it ends---even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Is one going to argue that consummation doesn't mean the end of something? What are we looking for the end of in Daniel 9? Is it not the 70 weeks? The 70 weeks can't end until the 70th week ends first. And according to the 2nd half of Daniel 9:27, those abominable things continue even until the consummation, IOW, until the end of the 70th week.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?
 
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