Question for people who reject intercessory with Saints

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

GospelS said:
Intercessory is a two way participation. So it is actively done with whom we have with us, to send our requests from earth to heaven before God. Saints are not with us. They are not omnipresent. If we feel/see/believe their spirit is with us, then we can do intercessory with them.

thats the best argument im pretty sure all christians who are against it say the holy spirit the one whos interceding for them not them there-selves hebrews 12:1 and Romans 8:34-36 and to believe its for the living only it has to be scriptural.

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
You are certainly free to hold that opinion if you wish.

this is a discussion

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
First, of course, Paul was referring to saints living on earth and talking physically with each other, not some dead saints who were transformed into demi-gods. Second, why bother praying to dead folks who may or may not actually be able to intercede with God when we have the assurance that Jesus Christ is seated at God's right hand, interceding for His saints forever?

How do you know he was speaking for only the living any Greek or scriptural evidence that defends that, Also we only ask intercession for the grounds of the same way i intercede for you and we do it to please God not put forth faith against him. Theres only one mediator and its Jesus so don't see the point of you bringing God in this you only worship God not the saints and Jesus intercession is not the same as pleasant intercession.

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

prodromos said:
I'm pretty certain St Stephen is celebrated in the Oriental Orthodox Church. He certainly is in the Eastern Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican Churches.

I'm pretty sure if the person was referring to canonize saints they would make it obvious they was. Yes, hes a canonize saint hes the literal first matyr

GospelS · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
thats the best argument im pretty sure all christians who are against it say the holy spirit the one whos interceding for them not them there-selves hebrews 12:1 and Romans 8:34-36 and to believe its for the living only it has to be scriptural.

All believers intercede, dead or alive. If an angel or a saint spirit comes and interacts with us, then we can do intercessory prayers with them.

dóxatotheó said:
how do you know?

When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. John 16:13

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

GospelS said:
No one did intercessory with the dead in the scripture. They did with one another. So it's not based on the scripture. If an angel or a saint spirit comes and interacts with me, then I can do intercessory prayers with them.

can't say that if there's no scripture evidence of that 1 Timothy 2:1-4 isn't provable to only mean living and secondly where in scripture does interaction define intercession

GospelS · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
how do you know?

When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. John 16:13

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

GospelS said:
When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. John 16:13

You so know the apostles disciples did intercession with saints

GospelS said:
When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. John 16:13

Your interpretation of scripture isn't ancient kinda fallacious to quote this verse knowing this belief wasn't believed in the first and second century. The holy spirit is the one doing all the interceding for us not us or the saints that died. Also interaction doesn't define intercession like i said there isn't scriptural proof of that.

GospelS · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
You so know the apostles disciples did intercession with saints

Your interpretation of scripture isn't ancient kinda fallacious to quote this verse knowing this belief wasn't believed in the first and second century. The holy spirit is the one doing all the interceding for us not us or the saints that died. Also interaction doesn't define intercession like i said there isn't scriptural proof of that.

You seem like a young believer. But that's good. Someday you will know as you mature in your faith. Some spiritual matters cannot be explained or understood at this stage of your faith. Thanks for the discussion.

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

GospelS said:
You seem like a young believer. But that's good. Someday you will know as you mature in your faith. Some spiritual matters cannot be explained or understood at this stage of your faith. Thanks for the discussion.

Been a christian all my life and im pretty sure my age does not equate to my knowledge of scripture. If that was the case all these denominations wouldn't exist and have completely different interpretations on specific text. Also I can explain my beliefs as I converted to the church from the church you follow i wasn't raised Orthodox, I am not even confirmed yet I just understand the fallacies concerning your belief on Intercessory in general.

GospelS · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
Been a christian all my life and im pretty sure my age does not equate to my knowledge of scripture. If that was the case all these denominations wouldn't exist and have completely different interpretations on specific text. Also I can explain my beliefs as I converted to the church from the church you follow i wasn't raised Orthodox, I am not even confirmed yet I just understand the fallacies concerning your belief on Intercessory in general.

OK. That’s good. My advice and encouragement to you is that you drink pure milk and then eat the meat as it was said in 1 Corinthians 3:2 and 1 Peter 2:2.

Albion · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
Why do you reject it is there scripture against it, are there scripture that says us being alive defines intercession, is there scripture that says the holy spirit doesn't intercede for saints in the presence with God. You guys may help and explain your views with scripture and I would gladly respond.

1. there is no scriptural basis for such prayers asking for a saint's intercession.

2. the Holy Spirit IS God, so it is not the case that he intercedes with God on our behalf.

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

Albion said:
1. there is no scriptural basis for such prayers asking for a saint's intercession.

First reply to the original thread not join the discussion i have with someone different and also that doesn't answer my question because intercession with saints is literally said in the bible. You should define to me what saints are and why the holy spirit only intercedes for the living.

Albion said:
he Holy Spirit IS God, so it is not the case that he intercedes with God on our behalf.

Read the nicene creed we can define the Father as God in different context. Of course the Holy Spirit is God never said he wasn't and thats not revelant to my questions address my questions.

Albion · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
...that doesn't answer my question because intercession with saints is literally said in the bible.

If so, you can settle the matter conclusively and help us all by posting the verse(s) which authorizes such prayers to those who have passed on.

You should define to me what saints are and why the holy spirit only intercedes for the living.

What you called "intercessory with Saints," is language that normally refers to mortals praying to spirits for them to intercede with God on the behalf of the petitioner. If that is not what you meant, please set us straight about your meaning.

Of course the Holy Spirit is God never said he wasn't and thats not revelant to my questions address my questions.

Then what does "why the holy spirit only intercedes for the living" mean?

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

Albion said:
If so, you should be able to settle the matter conclusively by posting the verse(s) which authorize such prayers to those who have passed on.

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:27
“pray one for another” (James 5:16). Even the Saints requested others to pray for them. St. Paul asks the Thessalonians: “pray for us” (2Thes 3:1). The same he asks of the Hebrews (Heb 13:18), and of the Ephesians “Praying always with all prayer and supplication..for all the saints; and for me, that utterance may be given unto me” (Eph 6:18).
The departed saints live, the Lord explains this to the Sadducees: “have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. God is not a God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mat 22:31,32). Those saints are living, so why consider them dead by not asking for their prayers?
Both Moses and Elijah appeared with the Lord on Mount Tabor during the Transfiguration. Moses who died in the flesh 14 centuries earlier, was seen with the Lord alive same like Elijah who was taken up to heaven. The spirits of the righteous are immortal, they are in paradise, where they see and know more than we do
Let us now consider some biblical examples of the intercession of the Angels:
The book of Zechariah tells us of an Angel interceding on behalf of Jerusalem, “Then the angel of the Lord answered and said: O Lord of hosts, how long willt Thou not have mercy on Jerusalem…” his intercession was indeed accepted by the Lord “thus saith the Lord: I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies, my house shall be built in it saith the Lord of hosts” (Zech 1:12_16).
Another example is the Angel interceding on behalf of Joshua the high priest, when Satan was standing to resist him, we hear the Angel say “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan…is not this a brand plucked out of fire?” The intercession of the Angel was indeed accepted for we are told concerning Joshua: “Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, behold I have caused thy iniquity to pass from thee..” (Zech 3:1_4).
We are also told of Israel when he blessed the two children of Joseph his son that he said: “The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads.” (Gen 48:16).
Angels are described in the epistle to the Hebrews as “ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.” (Heb 1:14). If they have a ministry on behalf of people here on earth, how much more would be their ministry on our behalf in heaven where they belong?
Let us finally answer another objection that is put forward:
Some say that we should not “pray to the saints” only to God. Indeed! for in asking for their help we are not praying to the saints but actually asking them to pray on our behalf.
We ask for the saints intercession because of the great favor they have with God.
We ask for their intercession because God allowed and accepted such intercessions.
We believe in intercession because we believe in the life of the world to come. Because we believe that the saints who departed are alive.
We ask for the intercession of the Saints to honor them for God himself honors them by accepting their intercessions. “If any man serve me, him will my Father honor.” (Jn 12:26).

Albion said:
What you called "intercessory with Saints," is language that normally refers to mortal praying to spirits for them to intercede with God on the behalf of the petitioner. If that is not what you meant, please clarify.

Orthodox worship and prayer, on the other hand, is simply crowded. Though we worship only the Triune God, we nevertheless do so in company with a “great cloud of witnesses,” whom we frequently acknowledge in our prayers, asking for them to join us in our prayer, seeking their prayers for us, just as assuredly they are urging us on from the life in heaven and interceding constantly before God for us.

Albion said:
Then what does "why the holy spirit only intercedes for the living" mean?

You believe saints are dead so I'm asking scriptural evidence for that and also that intercession is only advocated for the ones on Earth also answer my questions in the original thread.

Albion · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
“pray one for another” (James 5:16). Even the Saints requested others to pray for them. St. Paul asks the Thessalonians: “pray for us” (2Thes 3:1). The same he asks of the Hebrews (Heb 13:18), and of the Ephesians “Praying always with all prayer and supplication..for all the saints; and for me, that utterance may be given unto me” (Eph 6:18).

These are all about praying for another mortal. It's about asking for the prayers of neighbors and friends. No one has a problem with that. It does not, however, refer to praying to those who have died a physical death and passed on to the next life.

The departed saints live, the Lord explains this to the Sadducees: “have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. God is not a God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mat 22:31,32). Those saints are living, so why consider them dead by not asking for their prayers?

Because--as was indicated earlier--there is no scriptural evidence or support for doing so, although there is ample evidence for praying for other people who are like us still alive in the flesh and asking for them to do the same for us.

In addition, if we were to pray to spirits, we have no way of knowing if they are with God (to whom they presumably can make petitions on our behalf) or somewhere else in the after life. For that matter, we have no way of knowing if they can even hear our prayers. There is also no scriptural basis for thinking that they can.

Both Moses and Elijah appeared with the Lord on Mount Tabor during the Transfiguration. Moses who died in the flesh 14 centuries earlier, was seen with the Lord alive same like Elijah who was taken up to heaven. The spirits of the righteous are immortal, they are in paradise, where they see and know more than we do

Certainly, but that has nothing to do with US praying to the spirits of deceased humans.

Angels are described in the epistle to the Hebrews as “ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.” (Heb 1:14). If they have a ministry on behalf of people here on earth, how much more would be their ministry on our behalf in heaven where they belong?

There is nothing in your references to angels that instructs us that we should pray to them to intercede on our behalf with God. Yes, they care about us. They assist us. But what's missing is a verse that instructs us to pray to them to intercede for us.

We ask for the saints intercession because of the great favor they have with God...

We believe in intercession because we believe in the life of the world to come...

Because we believe that the saints who departed are alive...

We ask for the intercession of the Saints to honor them for God himself honors them by accepting their intercessions. “If any man serve me, him will my Father honor.” (Jn 12:26)...

Yes, those are the rationalizations. However, this began with the simple question: What is the scriptural basis for us to pray to the spirits of humans who have passed on to the afterlife? None of these statements even addresses that question.

You believe saints are dead...

I do not. Nor did I say such a thing.

Have a nice day, now.

:wave:

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

Albion said:
These are all about praying for another mortal. It's about asking for the prayers of neighbors and friends. No one has a problem with that. It does not, however, refer to praying to those who have died a physical death and passed on to the next life.

Gotta prove this view any scholars agree with your view and also how do you view the apostles disciples are they authoritative source for beliefs or are they heretics?

Albion said:
Yes, those are the rationalizations. However, this began with the simple question: What is the scriptural basis for us to pray to the spirits of humans who have passed on to the afterlife? None of these statements even addresses that question.

Bible being explicit
isn't always the case Albion and you know that we would fall in burden of proof if you hold this view cause bible doesn't explicitly say only mortals intercede for us.

Albion said:
I do not. Nor did I say such a thing.

SO you hold that they are still alive and still in the church and they still have the holy spirit with them?

dóxatotheó · Jun 3, 2021

Albion said:
There is nothing in your references to angels that instructs us that we should pray to them to intercede on our behalf with God. Yes, they care about us. They assist us. But what's missing is a verse that instructs us to pray to them to intercede for us.

Why would angels instruct intercession the only way intercession is permitted if its in the Will of God to be done and we dont say we are instructed to intercede with anyone we say in the will of God saints or angels intercede with us.

Albion said:
Certainly, but that has nothing to do with US praying to the spirits of deceased humans.

I already told you gotta prove your view that intercession is only permitted to mortals.

Albion said:
In addition, if we were to pray to spirits, we have no way of knowing if they are with God (to whom they presumably can make petitions on our behalf) or somewhere else in the after life. For that matter, we have no way of knowing if they can even hear our prayers. There is also no scriptural basis for thinking that they can.

There a reason why we canonize saints and we would know by there a fruits and faith in Christ and we dont pray to them complete strawman of our beliefs.

Albion said:
Because--as was indicated earlier--there is no scriptural evidence or support for doing so, although there is ample evidence for praying for other people who are like us still alive in the flesh and asking for them to do the same for us.

Also none defending that intercession is only permissible for mortals.

Albion · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
I already told you gotta prove your view that intercession is only permitted to mortals.

My point was and is that there is no Scriptural warrant for us praying to the spirits of humans who have passed on to the next life.

There is plenty of authorization in the Bible for other kinds of prayer, as we have discussed. But not that.

And I made this point at least four times in my previous post.

plain jayne · Jun 3, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
Why do you reject it is there scripture against it, are there scripture that says us being alive defines intercession, is there scripture that says the holy spirit doesn't intercede for saints in the presence with God. You guys may help and explain your views with scripture and I would gladly respond.

Well, remember.....you DID ask.

The Bible says that we are to pray for one another - that's elementary. My church meets on Wednesday nights for the purpose of the church praying for other people inside and outside our church, lost and saved, sick and well. That's not the only time we pray - the Bible says to pray without ceasing - , but it's our main time to pray corporately - as a body.

To answer your question about why I don't believe in praying to dead people OR asking dead people to go to God for me, including Mary:

PART I

Dead people - even those with Christ who now live or one day will live in a glorified body - are not omniscient. Only God is all knowing. They cannot HEAR us. The cloud of witnesses in Romans 12:1 is NOT people in heaven looking down on us and cheering us on and running to God to ask him to help us. They cannot see us. It would grieve them with great misery if they all could see us on this earth - sinning and suffering and causing suffering. The cloud of witnesses is all the people listed in Hebrews 11 who showed great faith. They are NOT witnesses OF us, but witnesses TO us to be an example of how to live by faith. I cannot tell you how many Christians, both Catholic and Protestants who do not read Hebrews 11 and only take Hebrews 12:1 to mean that dear ol' grandpa is "up there" rooting for us.
We, as Christians ALL have the SAME access to bring our petitions to God. No singular and flawed human being - and yes, that includes Mary, as "special access" to God. Not even the dead ones with him. The Bible says "Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16

PART II

The Bible says that both Jesus Christ, the ONLY Mediator and the Holy Spirit both make intercession to the Father for us. The Holy Spirit - "groaning in utterances too deep to understand with words". If Jesus Christ - the sinless Sacrifice, resurrected, and the Holy Spirit of God are making intercessions for me in heaven, then WHY should I pray to a dead person asking THEM to be an intercessor for me? For me, that's blasphemy and idolatry. Making an Intercessor out of the dead. Believe that someone else in heaven - whether an angel or the dead has the same authority of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I don't take this belief lightly. It's a serious thing to me.
We are commanded to pray for one another here on this mortal plain. That's in the Bible countless times. While my father was alive, I COVETED his prayers for me and knew he prayed for myself and so many others. Now that my father has passed - it would never dawn on me to pray to him or "talk" to him and ask him to go to God for me. I know that some Christians don't understand the difference being asking a person here to pray for you and asking Mary or another dead person. I have to go with scripture. There are MULTIPLE instances of people here on earth praying for each other. There is NO instance of anyone calling on the dead to go to God for them. As I said, If my father could "see and hear" me - if he could peep down and know what's going on in my life he would be grieved. Since he has passed - my mother and I have struggled with our relationship. And I'll just leave it at that. Also, sometimes my depression and anxiety is severe. What a miserable place heaven would be for him to be omniscient like God and have to see all of that.

PART III

I know that many Catholic people claim that they do not pray "to" Mary and other dead people, but that they only ask those to take their petitions to God for them. But I have read far too many "prayers" and parts of the rosary and the Fatima statements that are direct prayers TO Mary for salvation and more. Calling her a co-redeemer. Claim when Jesus gets angry at us that she holds his arms back to protect us. So yes, SOME people who incorporate Mary and the dead in their prayers ARE praying to them for protection and even salvation.

I know that you are not going to take heed to anything I have said. I can tell by the way that you posed your OP and by the comments you are making. You have listed many scriptures that you have misinterpreted. I could go over them, but I don't them you are interested in that either.

You asked for my belief system. And I gave it.

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