Do These Verses Disprove Original Sin?

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2021

Dale said:
Bible Highlighter: “Three reasons why Federal Headship is true.”

If Federal Headship is a religious doctrine, I’ve never heard of it. What church believes this?

Baptists, Calvinists, Brethren, etc. (i.e. Protestant groups).
You can Google Federal Headship to learn more.

Side Note: Granted there is much I do not agree with in regards to Calvinists.
I disagree with all five points of Calvinism.

You said:
Bible Highlighter: “This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin (i.e. by the seed of a woman and not of the seed of the male). Babies were deserving of death by Adam's sin, but Jesus Christ reversed the curse of Adam.”

It is odd that in Genesis, Adam and Eve sin together, and Eve actually sinned first. Yet in theology we hear only about inheriting the sin of Adam. This could only make sense from a legalistic point of view, arguing from the Jewish law, which sets up a completely male-dominated society. I don’t see how it can make sense to us.

There is no doubt that physical heredity comes from both mother and father. In that light, I don’t see how being born of a woman without being conceived of a man would have anything to do with transmission of original sin.

Who sinned first? Adam or Eve?
We know from reading Genesis 3 that Eve sinned first, however Romans 5:12 says that sin entered the world through Adam.

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Romans 5:12).

Hebrews 7:26 says this of Jesus:
“For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;”

So this is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin and not of the male seed.

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2021

Dale said:
Bible Highlighter: “Three reasons why Federal Headship is true.”

If Federal Headship is a religious doctrine, I’ve never heard of it. What church believes this?

Bible Highlighter: “This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin (i.e. by the seed of a woman and not of the seed of the male). Babies were deserving of death by Adam's sin, but Jesus Christ reversed the curse of Adam.”

It is odd that in Genesis, Adam and Eve sin together, and Eve actually sinned first. Yet in theology we hear only about inheriting the sin of Adam. This could only make sense from a legalistic point of view, arguing from the Jewish law, which sets up a completely male-dominated society. I don’t see how it can make sense to us.

There is no doubt that physical heredity comes from both mother and father. In that light, I don’t see how being born of a woman without being conceived of a man would have anything to do with transmission of original sin.

The point is not what makes sense to us but what does the Bible say.
There are many things in the Bible that are miraculous to believe in.

The new birth (or being born again) would not mean anything unless the new birth changes us in a way that is beyond the condemnation of Adam.

For in Adam: All die. But in Christ: All shall be made alive.
So who is our representative?

Jesus is the last Adam.
The first Adam was earthy.
The second Adam is heavenly.

Jesus is our substitute.
For Scripture says He was wounded for our transgressions, and He was crushed for our iniquities, and by his stripes we are healed.
What do you think happened in the Garden of Gethsame when Jesus took the cup from the Father?
I believe He took upon all the sins of the world from that cup.
Jesus was being our representative and dying in our place as a way to provide a Provisional Atonement or means to forgive men their sin if they accept His free gift of eternal life.

For if we were not condemned by Adam's sin, then men can be their own Savior.
God could just take men to Heaven while they were babies.

The Fall of Adam would not mean anything if his sin did not affect the whole of humanity. In fact, when we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light (light of God the Father), the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So when we continue in the faith (after being saved by God's grace), the sacrifice of Christ is associated to us. Christ then becomes our federal head or representative.

Now, Calvinists will say that we are separated spiritually from God by Adam's sin.
But I see that Christ's death reversed the curse of the sin of Adam.
Physical death was the punishment of Adam's sin because he was prevented from eating of the tree of life. For if Adam ate of the tree of life while after he sinned, he would have lived forever with the stain of sin upon him and his offspring. But God prevented that from happening.
For without a physical flesh and blood body resurrection, we would be dead in our sins according to the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Believers must live again to not be condemned by sin and it's punishment. So while babies may die and go to Heaven, this is only because of Christ's sacrifice. If Jesus never went to the cross, then all of humanity would have been condemned. Jesus is not just the Savior of some, but He is the Savior of all men. For there is salvation in nobody else or no other way. Jesus is the only way. Once we understand that Jesus is the Savior fully and completely, we must then come to terms in facing the music that in Adam... all die.

For everybody likes to accept good things (like accepting the good that is associated with abiding in Christ), but nobody wants to accept the responsibility of anything bad by associating with Adam. Scripture says that in Adam... all die. Why is Adam and his race perishing or dying? Well, the Bible says the wages of sin is death. It's a race condemned by sin and darkness. Our only way of escape is through Jesus Christ and in believing and following Him.

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2021

Dale said:
Bible Highlighter: “Three reasons why Federal Headship is true.”

If Federal Headship is a religious doctrine, I’ve never heard of it. What church believes this?

Bible Highlighter: “This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin (i.e. by the seed of a woman and not of the seed of the male). Babies were deserving of death by Adam's sin, but Jesus Christ reversed the curse of Adam.”

It is odd that in Genesis, Adam and Eve sin together, and Eve actually sinned first. Yet in theology we hear only about inheriting the sin of Adam. This could only make sense from a legalistic point of view, arguing from the Jewish law, which sets up a completely male-dominated society. I don’t see how it can make sense to us.

There is no doubt that physical heredity comes from both mother and father. In that light, I don’t see how being born of a woman without being conceived of a man would have anything to do with transmission of original sin.

Here are key verses for you to consider in defense of Original Sin.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:19).

"Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18).

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22).

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2021

Dale said:
Bible Highlighter: “Three reasons why Federal Headship is true.”

If Federal Headship is a religious doctrine, I’ve never heard of it. What church believes this?

Bible Highlighter: “This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin (i.e. by the seed of a woman and not of the seed of the male). Babies were deserving of death by Adam's sin, but Jesus Christ reversed the curse of Adam.”

It is odd that in Genesis, Adam and Eve sin together, and Eve actually sinned first. Yet in theology we hear only about inheriting the sin of Adam. This could only make sense from a legalistic point of view, arguing from the Jewish law, which sets up a completely male-dominated society. I don’t see how it can make sense to us.

There is no doubt that physical heredity comes from both mother and father. In that light, I don’t see how being born of a woman without being conceived of a man would have anything to do with transmission of original sin.

Consider the stain of Adam can be seen on his offspring in these verses:

Job 15:14-16 - "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"
Romans 7:24 - "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Matthew 26:41 - "...The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Ephesians 2:2-3 - "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 3:23 says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

If all men has a sin problem, this means they share in Adam's one time sin. They associate with the sin of Adam because they are his offspring. But if we are of the seed or offspring of Christ, and we endure to the end, we will prove we are good offspring that is of the seed of Christ. For it will be Christ working in us to do of His good will and pleasure.

Mr. M · May 31, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Who sinned first? Adam or Eve?
We know from reading Genesis 3 that Eve sinned first, however Romans 5:12 says that sin entered the world through Adam.

Here is another "popular" view. I see this is clearly addressed to married women, (child rearing).
and there would be far less controversy over women's roles if a clear differentiation is made to
when Paul is addressing married rather than unmarried women. An unmarried woman or a widow
is a "free woman", but only to serve Christ.

1 Timothy 2:
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to usurp authority over a man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness,
with self-control.

A woman can usurp authority from a husband, whom the Lord has ordained to take
responsibility over certain matters. Another example from Acts is that Philip's daughters
are all referred to as "prophetesses", but also "virgins". I see I am drifting from the topic of
"who sinned first" but the scripture reference takes a turn from transgression to roles, and
"working out salvation". I hope that is okay. Peace.

Butterball1 · Jun 3, 2021

Dale said:
I didn’t realize that the definition of original sin was going to be a problem.

I’ll start with the most obvious sources.

The Sage

Original Sin: A sin said to be inherited by all descendants of Adam.

Also: Adam and Eve committed the original sin when they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.

Dictionary.com

Original Sin : Theology

a. A depravity, or tendency to evil, held to be innate in humankind and transmitted from Adam to all humans in consequence of his sin.

b. Inclination to evil, inherent in human nature.

Roman Catholic Theology: The privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam.

The Bible does not define sin as the above sources that you cite define sin.

Romans 4:15 "... for where no law is, there is no transgression."

1 John 3:4 ".....for sin is the transgression of the law."

Romans 7:8-9 "....For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

The Bible does not define sin as an idea or substance that is UNconditionally "transmitted" from one person to another. For sin to exist there must be a law that exists (Romans 4:15) a transgression of that law (1 John 3:4) by an accountable person (Romans 7:8-9) who has intellectually matured knowing right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16).

In the garden of Eden there was a law (Genesis 2:17) that was transgressed (Genesis 3:6) by accountable people (Adam and Eve). Adam & Eve were not created sinners, not created with sin, not created with a sin nature and were not sinners until they first sinned by a moral free will choice in choosing to sin THEN and only then they were sinners. So there is no need for such ideas as original sin/sin nature for men to be sinners. All that is needed for one to BECOME a sinner*** is a law and choosing to transgress that law. Therefore we today become sinners in the same way as Adam and Eve....we are not created with sin or a sin nature but made upright (Ecclesiastes 7:29) where accountable people choose to transgress God's law. God can and does JUSTLY hold men accountable for the moral choices that men make, yet God does not UNJUSTLY hold men accountable for inabilities (original sin/sin nature) man would be passively born with against his own will.

In Romans 7:8-9 Paul says of his spiritual state that he was once spiritually ALIVE but then later spiritually DIED. If original sin were Biblical, then he would have been born spiritually dead and remained spiritually dead until he became a born again Christian. Yet we are born ALIVE, born innocent, without sin. But as men intellectually mature learning right from wrong, then men become accountable to God's law, choosing to transgress God's law THEN BECOMES*** a sinner, THEN spiritually dies.

***Romans 3:12 Paul said they had TURNED or GONE OUT of the way (not born out of the way) and had BECOME unprofitable (not born unprofitable). You do not become something (sinner) that you already are but become something you once were not...become a sinner from having once been innocent.

Jesus used the term "born again" (John 3). The word "again" implies one was born before now born 'again'. The first birth is the physical birth where men are born without sin, innocent before God. Yet when one is spiritually born AGAIN his sins are all cleansed away by the blood of Christ, one returns AGAIN to that state without sin which one was first physically born.

first physical birth - born without sin
second spiritual birth - born AGAIN without sin

not

first physical birth - born with sin
second spiritual birth - born AGAIN with sin

Dale · Jun 6, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The point is not what makes sense to us but what does the Bible say.
There are many things in the Bible that are miraculous to believe in.

The new birth (or being born again) would not mean anything unless the new birth changes us in a way that is beyond the condemnation of Adam.

For in Adam: All die. But in Christ: All shall be made alive.
So who is our representative?

Jesus is the last Adam.
The first Adam was earthy.
The second Adam is heavenly.

Jesus is our substitute.
For Scripture says He was wounded for our transgressions, and He was crushed for our iniquities, and by his stripes we are healed.
What do you think happened in the Garden of Gethsame when Jesus took the cup from the Father?
I believe He took upon all the sins of the world from that cup.
Jesus was being our representative and dying in our place as a way to provide a Provisional Atonement or means to forgive men their sin if they accept His free gift of eternal life.

For if we were not condemned by Adam's sin, then men can be their own Savior.
God could just take men to Heaven while they were babies.

The Fall of Adam would not mean anything if his sin did not affect the whole of humanity. In fact, when we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light (light of God the Father), the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So when we continue in the faith (after being saved by God's grace), the sacrifice of Christ is associated to us. Christ then becomes our federal head or representative.

Now, Calvinists will say that we are separated spiritually from God by Adam's sin.
But I see that Christ's death reversed the curse of the sin of Adam.
Physical death was the punishment of Adam's sin because he was prevented from eating of the tree of life. For if Adam ate of the tree of life while after he sinned, he would have lived forever with the stain of sin upon him and his offspring. But God prevented that from happening.
For without a physical flesh and blood body resurrection, we would be dead in our sins according to the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Believers must live again to not be condemned by sin and it's punishment. So while babies may die and go to Heaven, this is only because of Christ's sacrifice. If Jesus never went to the cross, then all of humanity would have been condemned. Jesus is not just the Savior of some, but He is the Savior of all men. For there is salvation in nobody else or no other way. Jesus is the only way. Once we understand that Jesus is the Savior fully and completely, we must then come to terms in facing the music that in Adam... all die.

For everybody likes to accept good things (like accepting the good that is associated with abiding in Christ), but nobody wants to accept the responsibility of anything bad by associating with Adam. Scripture says that in Adam... all die. Why is Adam and his race perishing or dying? Well, the Bible says the wages of sin is death. It's a race condemned by sin and darkness. Our only way of escape is through Jesus Christ and in believing and following Him.

Bible Highlighter: “For if we were not condemned by Adam's sin, then men can be their own Savior.”

Bible Highlighter: “The Fall of Adam would not mean anything if his sin did not affect the whole of humanity.”

Does Paul have a veto over the Ten Commandments? I started this thread by quoting three verses from the first books of the Old Testament, two of them from the Ten Commandments. You have not responded to any of these quotes. They say plainly that God will not punish men and women through dozens of generations for the sin of their ancestors. You are a very strong creationist. Do you learn anything from the rest of the Old Testament?

I don’t think the crucifixion had anything to do with “Adam’s sin.” It is enough to say that Jesus died for our sins.

I apologize for the delay in responding.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 7, 2021

Dale said:
Bible Highlighter: “For if we were not condemned by Adam's sin, then men can be their own Savior.”

Bible Highlighter: “The Fall of Adam would not mean anything if his sin did not affect the whole of humanity.”

Does Paul have a veto over the Ten Commandments? I started this thread by quoting three verses from the first books of the Old Testament, two of them from the Ten Commandments. You have not responded to any of these quotes. They say plainly that God will not punish men and women through dozens of generations for the sin of their ancestors. You are a very strong creationist. Do you learn anything from the rest of the Old Testament?

I don’t think the crucifixion had anything to do with “Adam’s sin.” It is enough to say that Jesus died for our sins.

I apologize for the delay in responding.

Under the New Covenant (Which began officially with Christ's death): I believe only the 9 out of the 10 commands in Exodus 20 apply today. While certain individual commands have been repeated into the New Covenant (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.), we are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. According to Colossians 2:16, we are not to let others judge us on whether we keep the Sabbaths or not. The Sabbaths would naturally include the Saturday Sabbath. Romans 14:5 also strongly suggests that the Sabbath is no longer a command that is in effect (even though the Sabbath as a day exists). In the pages of the New Testament: There are no commands explicit or non-explicit given to us in regards to keeping the Saturday Sabbath. There is also no Sabbath breaking mentioned as a sin listed among the many other sins listed by the apostle and John (See: Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8). Jesus also does not mention the breaking of the Sabbath as a sin, either. I believe the breaking of the Sabbath was only a sin before Jesus began His earthly ministry because Jesus was making changes to the Law at the sermon on the mount (See: Matthew 5-7). So when you refer to the 10, you are referring to something that does not exactly exist anymore. There is no 10 anymore. There are only 9 out of the 10 and other commands listed by Jesus Christ in the New Testament. We follow the Law of Christ and not the Law of Moses.

“And by him all that believe are justified
from all things, from which
ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”
(Acts of the Apostles 13:39).

Anyways, I did respond to the verses in Exodus you gave by saying that these verses are not talking about the hereditary sin of Adam. The sins in Exodus are talking about the sins that of which it refers to (under the Old Covenant). I believe new truths and teachings were revealed for the New Covenant that are not explicitly taught in the Old Covenant. But if you want clue of hereditary sin in the Old, we know that Eve sinned first, and then Adam sinned next. Yet, in Romans 5:12, sin entered the world by one man. In other words, sin was not passed down to the world by Eve, but by Adam. If sin was to enter the world according to Exodus, it would be Eve who should have been punished for bringing sin into the world. But that's not what Romans 5:12 says. Sin entered the world through Adam.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 7, 2021

I see how we are born with sin physically because of what Adam did.
The new birth allows us to have a new resurrected body one day that is not tainted by sin.
For in Adam, all die.
In Christ, all shall be made alive.

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Do These Verses Disprove Original Sin?

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Mr. M

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Butterball1

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Dale

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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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