Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

Kermos said:
there is no scripture that states man was imparted a free will.

First, why do you demand words of YOUR OWN choosing?

What do you think "free will" means? It seems you don't have a clue. What you do have is a very incorrect notion of it. In fact, Calvinists (I'm NO Arminian) tend to describe free will as some kind of "power" or "force" that does stuff.

No, that is ridiculous. Free will is nothing more or less than an opportunity to choose between available options.

That being said, Calvinists like to use the example of weather, and ask if one's free will can change it. Well, that's stupid, because weather is out of man's control, and there is no option to choose different weather. So the "example" fails.

We absolutely do know that God has given man the opportunity to believe the Gospel, from Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Clear as can be. God's grace has appeared to everyone and OFFERS salvation to everyone.

Please consider this: for an offer to be legitimate, it has to be available.

When something is offered to someone, that shows an opportunity to choose whether or not to take it.

Do you believe that God's offers can be illegitimate?

Now, you can disagree with all this, but can you prove any of it to be wrong?

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2021

Kermos said:
In verse 6, you add to scripture because you wrote "anyone who does not remain in Me is cast away"; on the other hand, Lord Jesus says "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away" (John 15:6).

I was paraphrasing, I forgot the word “if”. I don’t see how that affects the statement He made unless your implying that He was referring to a hypothetical impossibility in which there would be no point in even mentioning what happens to people who don’t abide in Him if that is an impossible scenario. And what does He say in the very next verse?

“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So evidently even His 11 faithful apostles were capable of turning away otherwise He wouldn’t have said “IF you abide in Me”.

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2021

Kermos said:
Now, you claim to be superior to the King of Glory when you wrote "He would've said" because King Jesus says exactly what He says, not what you say He would have said, but the King says exactly what He says. And, He says "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28), so it is impossible for one inside of Christ to fall out of Christ.

If I have a rabbit in my hand and I say no one can snatch this rabbit from my hand does that mean that I said I cannot throw the rabbit from my hand or that I said the rabbit cannot jump from my hand?

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2021

Kermos said:
Finally, about verse 7, you wrote "Using the word IF indicates a condition that must be met", and this is true; however, the conditional does not impart ability, so that makes the IF logic statement dependent upon the Christ Himself because He says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Apart from Christ we can do nothing to please God because we are stained by sin. We cannot bear fruit. Only by remaining in Christ can our fruit be pleasing to God because our sins have been forgiven. Apparently according to verse 2 The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit. This means that while we are in Christ we have a choice to serve God or not to serve Him and if we choose not to serve Him we will be cut off from Christ.

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2021

Kermos said:
In verse 7, you convey that persons can remain in Christ of their own power apart from the Power of God

I never said any such thing. That’s a false accusation.

FreeGrace2 · May 10, 2021

Kermos said: ↑
Now, you claim to be superior to the King of Glory when you wrote "He would've said" because King Jesus says exactly what He says, not what you say He would have said, but the King says exactly what He says. And, He says "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28), so it is impossible for one inside of Christ to fall out of Christ.

BNR32FAN said:
If I have a rabbit in my hand and I say no one can snatch this rabbit from my hand does that mean that I said I cannot throw the rabbit from my hand or that I said the rabbit cannot jump from my hand?

Bad example because you ignore the first part of v.28.

Jesus said "I give them (believers, per John 5:24) eternal life and they shall never perish".

iow, the RESULT of being eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish.

But you have twisted Jesus' words into this: "I give them eternal life, and if they don't jump out of My hand, they will never perish."

The red words are what you have added to the text. That's eisegesis.

When a person believes in Christ, they are given eternal life. Therefore, all who have believed shall never perish.

Kermos · May 11, 2021

bling said:
Wow! You have to read John 6:29 in the context. The audience Jesus is addressing had just shockingly, miraculously been fed the day before with more food than they could eat as a pure underserving charitable gift (they might have felt He was rewarding them for setting and listening, but they really did nothing). This group is not there for more teaching, but likes the way Jesus rewards and want Jesus to go on leading them and rewarding/paying them, miraculously.

Jesus starts off rebuking them by saying: 27 ??Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.?? Which introduces the idea of them working for something spiritual (and not the physical they are wanting from Jesus). Jesus is talking about them ??doing?? something.

Jesus is also talking about people "doing" something like your supposed free will choice of Jesus.

bling said:
We see it is the food (eternal life food) that Jesus is saying He will give them, but this ??work?? is something they do.

28 Then they asked him, ??What must we do to do the works God requires???

Jesus then answers very plainly about the work God required of them for them to do:

29 Jesus answered, ??The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.??

In context it would thus be: ??The work God requires them to do is ??believe??. Jesus is not talking philosophically about some ??work?? God does for them, but what Spiritual ??work?? in the Spiritual world they must do ??for food that endures to eternal life.??.

Wow! Behold the bling person that alters King Jesus Christ's spoken words. That's a dangerous and deadly thing you do.

Lord Jesus did NOT say "The work God requires them to do is 'believe'.", those words are YOU adding and subtracting from the Word of God.

Lord Jesus attributes "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" unequivocally to "the work of God" (John 6:29).

The context is that the people tried to intimate themselves into the works to achieve salvation, but the Master Orator named Jesus removed the people from any part of the works leading to salvation; in other words, the people wanted to know what they could do, and Jesus told them they could do nothing which includes the nothing of a choice.

The context is that God does it all regarding man believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and that man does nothing, man does not even do a choice.

LORD CHRIST JESUS IS SPECIFIC AND PRECISE WHEN HE SAYS "THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT" (JOHN 6:29), BUT YOU, BLING, YOU ADD TO AND SUBTRACT FROM JESUS CHRIST'S WORDS BY YOU INSERTING THAT MAN MUST "DO" THE "BELIEVE" THAT JESUS ATTRIBUTES EXCLUSIVELY TO THE WORK OF GOD.

bling said:
The Bible is not the work of men 2 Peter1 :20-21, which we are in agreement.

We still have to interpreted scripture in context, since it was not directly written to us and the fact you have many different interpretations of scripture by some excellent Biblical Scholars means some or all are wrong. ??Barnes and Robertson?? went back to the Greek to show how one interpretation of Eph. 2:8-10 is superior to other interpretations, in the Greek.

"Barnes and Robertson", and your by extension, interpretation of the Greek diverges from the meaning which results in the adding to and subtracting from scripture, just as this post demonstrates.

For example, your "Barnes and Robertson" failed to write the word/gender combinations of each of the four words, so here they are:

grace/feminine
saved/masculine
faith/feminine
that/neuter

Wow, look at that, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "feminine", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "feminine".

That is all of you injecting your thoughts into scripture instead of listening.

SEE THAT "BARNES AND ROBERTSON", AND YOUR BY EXTENSION, INTERPRETATION INCONSISTENTLY APPLIES GRAMMAR TO THE GREEK LANGUAGE; MOREOVER, THE INCONSISTENT GRAMMAR APPLICATION IS INTERPRETATION OF MAN INSTEAD OF INTERPRETATION BY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT (2 PETER 1:20-21).

bling said:
Paul is saying what ever he is talking about (you feel it is faith and I and others see it as salvation) is 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Paul does talk about in other places people trying to work and earn their salvation, which if earned would be something to boast about.

BUT Paul and no one else in scripture talks about working to obtain ??faith??, so how could Paul talk about such an impossibility here. Faith cannot be worked for and is virtually the opposite of working. You might work to obtain ??knowledge??, while giving up on working for knowledge and relying on trust (faith) is not something you work at doing.

Paul is talking about salvation and grace and faith in the Ephesians 2:8-10 passage.

Look at you, again, trying to erase "the work of God" as declared by the Word of God which is "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Paul says salvation is not a work of man in (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Paul says grace is not a work of man in (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Paul says faith is not a work of man in (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Paul says saved man is God's work in (Ephesians 2:8-10).

bling said:
The neuter ??that?? refers to the combination of words saved (salvation) that is of faith, where the ??faith?? is just part of describing the salvation. If Paul had said ??saving faith?? (which he did not do), you might have something.

You wrote that "faith" is being included with respect to salvation by the Apostle Paul.

Also, you wrote "'faith' is just part of describing the salvation" which makes that "faith" about "saving faith".

Your writing presents a confused interpretation; on the other hand, "God is not of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Behold, as part of Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul wrote "For we are His work" (Ephesians 2:10) immediately after Paul wrote "not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:9) where Paul was talking about man with "yourselves" (Ephesians 2:8).

This being a work of God (Ephesians 2:10) ties with "gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8), and Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus who says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

PAUL WROTE THAT "GRACE" AND "SAVED" AND "FAITH" ARE ALL CONTROLLED BY GOD WITH NO CONTROL BY MAN IN EPHESIANS 2:8-10.

bling said:
I have read other Greek scholars on this verse and not found another way to interpret it, but please lead me to a scholar with a different idea?

The Apostle Paul.

bling said:
All mature adults have a God given ability to extend faith/trust in someone or something, with even pagans putting the ??faith?? in objects of stone, wood and metal. A mature adult needs to direct this God given faith toward the creator of the universe to be saved, to humbly accept the free underserving gift of eternal life.

God has the ability to lovingly save persons from the wrath of God for persons' sins against God. People is entirely unable to contribute to saving themselves for persons can not "do" a choice of Jesus for in so "doing" the person "does" a work.

PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO "CHOOSE" JESUS DENY HIM AND REJECT HIS WORDS OF "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) AND "I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD" (JOHN 15:19, INCLUDES BEING SAVED FROM THE WRATH OF GOD).

Kermos · May 12, 2021

You, BNR32FAN, exhibit the very behavior in your post that the original post elluded to about free-willians, even in the first six short paragraphs, and the following demonstrates this by way of a careful examination of your writing opposing scripture.

BNR32FAN said:
I agree that Paul is contrasting carnal people against people who are born again but in this example BOTH have been given grace.

The nearest mention of the word "grace" is Romans 1:7 prior and Romans 3:24 afterward.

Your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

BNR32FAN said:
God??s kindness and patience leading them to repentance is His grace.

You wrote that God's grace leads to repentance the people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5; however, Paul wrote "not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4); therefore, you say "grace", yet Paul wrote "kindness".

Paul sheds some light on the subject, that is, Paul wrote "not knowing", so those "stubbornness and unrepentant heart" persons (Romans 2:5) mentioned by Paul do not know that repentance is from God.

Again, your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

BNR32FAN said:
Only grace can lead someone to repent.

Not only does God lead to repentance, but God grants repentance into man (Acts 11:18), so man receives righteous repentance from glorious God, yet man does not control righteous repentance.

Again, your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

BNR32FAN said:
Paul also specifically states the determining factor for their carnal behavior which is their stubbornness to repent.

You wrote "Paul also specifically states the determining factor for their carnal behavior which is their stubbornness to repent"; on the other hand, Paul specifically wrote "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God" (Romans 2:5).

You make it sound like it's only their "stubbornness" that determines, but you left out that Paul wrote "unrepentant heart" (Romans 2:5) in addition to "stubbornness" (Romans 2:5) when Paul described the persons, and this is crucial to understanding the passage.

It's really quite simple, an "unrepentant heart" is not a "repentant heart", so Paul is addressing persons that have "unrepentant heart", and repentance only happens in a person by God's power (Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4).

Paul used the conjunction "but" at the beginning of Romans 2:5, which shows that "your stubbornness and unrepentant heart" is "not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4).

Further, Paul's use of the conjunction "but" conveys an exception that indicates the fact that "knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4) is part of the testimony of we believers; in other words, we believers acknowledge the power of God that leads to repentance and grants repentance.

BNR32FAN said:
It??s by their own choice that they condemn themselves. That is clear in the message. So let??s break this down into one simple question, has God bestowed grace upon these people who are refusing to repent?

Now, you try to insert the word "choice" into Romans 2:4-5, but the word "choice" (or "choose" or it's conjugates) is absent from the passage.

Again, your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

It is clear that God did not grant those people repentance (at least when Paul wrote the passage).

BNR32FAN, your interpretation tries to make righteous repentance a work of man, yet scripture shows that righteous repentance in man is of God; moreover, your interpretation proves out the original post.

BNR32FAN · May 12, 2021

Kermos said:
You wrote that God's grace leads to repentance the people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5; however, Paul wrote "not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4); therefore, you say "grace", yet Paul wrote "kindness".

Paul sheds some light on the subject, that is, Paul wrote "not knowing", so those "stubbornness and unrepentant heart" persons (Romans 2:5) mentioned by Paul do not know that repentance is from God.

Again, your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

Then your denying Paul’s words by saying that God’s kindness and patience was not actually leading them to repentance because only by grace can they be led to repentance. So your denying Paul’s inspired words.

BNR32FAN · May 12, 2021

Kermos said:
You, BNR32FAN, exhibit the very behavior in your post that the original post elluded to about free-willians, even in the first six short paragraphs, and the following demonstrates this by way of a careful examination of your writing opposing scripture.

The nearest mention of the word "grace" is Romans 1:7 prior and Romans 3:24 afterward.

Your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

You wrote that God's grace leads to repentance the people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5; however, Paul wrote "not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4); therefore, you say "grace", yet Paul wrote "kindness".

Paul sheds some light on the subject, that is, Paul wrote "not knowing", so those "stubbornness and unrepentant heart" persons (Romans 2:5) mentioned by Paul do not know that repentance is from God.

Again, your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

Not only does God lead to repentance, but God grants repentance into man (Acts 11:18), so man receives righteous repentance from glorious God, yet man does not control righteous repentance.

Again, your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

You wrote "Paul also specifically states the determining factor for their carnal behavior which is their stubbornness to repent"; on the other hand, Paul specifically wrote "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God" (Romans 2:5).

You make it sound like it's only their "stubbornness" that determines, but you left out that Paul wrote "unrepentant heart" (Romans 2:5) in addition to "stubbornness" (Romans 2:5) when Paul described the persons, and this is crucial to understanding the passage.

It's really quite simple, an "unrepentant heart" is not a "repentant heart", so Paul is addressing persons that have "unrepentant heart", and repentance only happens in a person by God's power (Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4).

Paul used the conjunction "but" at the beginning of Romans 2:5, which shows that "your stubbornness and unrepentant heart" is "not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4).

Further, Paul's use of the conjunction "but" conveys an exception that indicates the fact that "knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4) is part of the testimony of we believers; in other words, we believers acknowledge the power of God that leads to repentance and grants repentance.

Now, you try to insert the word "choice" into Romans 2:4-5, but the word "choice" (or "choose" or it's conjugates) is absent from the passage.

Again, your inclusion of "grace" is non-existant in this passage.

It is clear that God did not grant those people repentance (at least when Paul wrote the passage).

BNR32FAN, your interpretation tries to make righteous repentance a work of man, yet scripture shows that righteous repentance in man is of God; moreover, your interpretation proves out the original post.

Your problem is that you think that if a person is granted grace they cannot fall away. In Galatians 5:4 Paul specifically states “you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace. Just like Jesus says in John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in Me that beareth not fruit. I know I’ve pointed out Luke 13:6-9

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again more evidence that even tho Christ is working to save someone the outcome is still uncertain whether or not they will bear fruit or if be cut down.

Kermos · May 13, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Still wondering if your going to answer my question about Romans 2 or not. If God??s kindness and patience is leading someone to repentance does that mean that God has bestowed grace upon that person?

Your question is non-sequitor because as this post clearly shows, the word "grace" is not in Romans 2:4-5.

You are trying to associate "grace" with repentance where "grace" is not mentioned in Romans 2:4-5.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, the word "grace" is mentioned, and "grace" is associated with salvation.

You are adding the word "grace" where "grace" is not mentioned, so you are adding to scripture, and adding to scripture is lying.

It is written "Do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Liars are mentioned in relation to the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

Kermos · May 14, 2021

bling said:
There is no scripture which says man does not have some free will.

As I have written previously, I use "free will" to denote the purported "ability of man to choose Jesus".

Truly, there is scripture which says man does have free will, and here are some of the scripture quotes:

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:16, includes salvation).
Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
Lord Jesus says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).
Lord Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

There is no scripture which says man does has free will.

Blindness, bling, does not save you. You cannot see the Kingdom of God without the work of God (John 3:3-8); therefore, you cannot "choose" that which you do not perceive, and you do not perceive who God says God is with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Dead eyes do no good. God must open your eyes for you to even see the Kingdom of God.

bling said:
If God is the one giving some sinners the ability to obey and other sinners, no different from those given ability, God chooses not to gift with this ability, so they are not able to obey, then God is responsible and not the individual. God??s free will actions would be the deciding factor and not the individual.

God very much does the regenerating, but the sinner makes the free will selfish choice to humbly accept undeserved charity as charity or not accept it from his hated enemy God.

"who are you, O man, who answers back to God?" (Romans 9:20).

You, bling, are the "thing molded". "The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it?" (Romans 9:20).

"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:21-23).

Again, as I have written previously, I use "free will" to denote the purported "ability of man to choose Jesus".

God selected persons for salvation before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8).

"So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Behold, bling, not the man who wills, so there is no free will.

bling said:
All glory goes to God because He is solely responsible for saving man, but man can still have the responsibility and choice to refuse or accept God??s salvation, for sinful/carnal/selfish reasons.

The ??work?? is something man does which is ??believe?? or trust in God (with God being Love), enough to hope some undeserving good might come from it.

The ??work of God?? is not ??causing man of God's choice to believe in Jesus whom God has sent??, Jesus is talking to a bunch of people wanting Jesus to keep on feeding them to their fill, what work they can be doing and not getting all philosophical about God doing something. They really can??t ??do?? anything, but they can believe/trust.

The natural man ALWAYS rejects Christ for such a man's condition is enmity with God; on the other hand, a born from above person believes in Jesus.

Christ is the Christ in Christian.

Christ says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

You say that "the work of God" DOES NOT EQUAL "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (or as occurs in your post "causing man of God's choice to believe in Jesus whom God has sent").

Christ says "the work of God" DOES EQUAL "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

A Christian does NOT contradict Christ. You contradict Christ.

Regardless of the feeding, Christ focused the conversation on several points:

the work of man was eliminated from salvation, so no free will (the people mentioned their work (John 6:28).
the work of God is paramount for salvation because without God's work, there is no "believe in Him whom He has sent".
"that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete work of God so there is no more work for man to do.

BTW, now you have man doing a "work", and people are NOT saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

God caused us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and I thank Almighty God for God's wonderfully blessed gift of faith!

bling said:
You need to reread what ??Barnes and Robertson?? wrote. It is not a singular or plural issue. "that" - touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - pistis - is in the feminine. In the sentence so ??touto?? cannot be referring to just "faith" - pistis.

Can you understand these two sentences?

That or this (touto) has to refer back to some neuter word or phrase. The ??phrase?? appears to be ??the idea of salvation in the clause before??, ??salvation by faith??.

Bling, your "Barnes and Robertson" failed to write the word/gender combinations of each of the four words, so here they are:

grace/feminine
saved/masculine
faith/feminine
that/neuter

Bohold, you and your "Barnes and Robertson" try to cause the following, and I quote you, '"that" - touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - pistis - is in the feminine. In the sentence so ??touto?? cannot be referring to just "faith" - pistis'.

Now, I'm going to apply your rule for "faith" using nearly all of your words to the word "saved", and here it is, '"that" - touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "saved" - sesosmenoi - is in the masculine. In the sentence so ??touto?? cannot be referring to just "saved" - sesosmenoi'.

Bling, you effectively eliminate "grace" and "saved" and "faith" from the passage, so that is one very confused position that you have. Do not forget that "God is not [a God] of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

As I have written again and again

"grace" is the gift of God while not being a work of man
"saved" is the gift of God while not being a work of man
"faith" is the gift of God while not being a work of man

in Ephesians 2:8-10.

bling said:
The word for ??putting your faith in?? is often translated ??Trust??. We are to ??trust?? God, but we can ??trust?? other things.

Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God.

Psalm 24:4 The one who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not trust in an idol or swear by a false god.

Psalm 49: 6 those who trust in their wealth and boast of their great riches?

Psalm 49:13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings.

Psalm 52:7 ??Here now is the man who did not make God his stronghold but trusted in his great wealth and grew strong by destroying others!??

Psalm 62:10 Do not trust in extortion or put vain hope in stolen goods; though your riches increase, do not set your heart on them.

Psalms 115: 8 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.

Isaiah 2:22 Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?

There are lots more, but this is an example.

The word "trust", a noun, is all of (1) a man's condition/state, (2) a man in firm belief in the integrity, ability, or character of another, and (3) "trust" is synonomous with faith and persuasion and confidence and reliance.

The word "trust", a verb, is all of (1) a man being in the action of a condition/state, (2) a man in the action of firmly believing in the integrity, ability, or character of another, and (3) "trust" is synonomous with believe.

Your definition of "trust" is "putting your faith in".

Your definition of "trust" changes the word "trust" by adding the word "putting".

Your definition of "trust" changes the very meaning of the true word "trust".

Since your definition of "trust" is untrustworthy, your definition does not apply to the passages you cite that use the word "trust".

Moreover, not a single one of your citations indicates that man was endowed with or has the ability to direct "trust" in a man.

For example, Psalm 146:3 reads "Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation" according to the Hebrew, so the words "put your" are not in the Hebrew; therefore, trust is not indicated to be directed by the man according to this passage. There are other passages mistranslated similar 2 Psalm 146:3.

bling said:
Are you telling me God makes some men to live for Him which is God??s objective for some men fulfilled by God and not by man?

Do we all start out ??living for self???

"You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:1-3) is what Paul wrote to believers in the Way (John 14:6).

"just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12).

bling said:
I have gone through man??s role above, so I will not go through that again.

There is no scripture that states God endowed man with the ability of free will choice toward God.

bling said:
You are taking verses out of context, first you take (John 15:19) where Jesus is specifically talking to the 12 and find a verse two chapter later where Jesus talking about all believers and say in John 17:20 Jesus is referring to all believers in John 15:19, two chapters earlier. Look at what Jesus says: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20) The reason Jesus does not want us to think He is just talking to the 12 in the following verses after John 17:20, is because that is whom He was addressing previously and now is expanding His pray and prophecies concerning all believers.

Bling, here is an enumeration based upon the points you bring up.

Judas left as recorded in John chapter 14, so there were 11 apostles with whom Jesus conversed in John chapters 15, 16, and 17.
In your linguistics, you try to force "those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20) which is the Apostle John's word, the "their word" in John 17:20, to only apply to the subsequent word recorded by John being John 17:21-26, so you try nullify that the Apostle John's word, the "their word" in John 17:20, applies to all the Apostle John's word, the "their word" in John 17:20.
you have Jesus only addressing the apostles; however, the Apostle Peter states that more disciples were there, which includes Joseph and Matthias by name (Acts 1:21-23) during the conversation recorded by the Apostle John in chapters 14, 15, 16, and 17.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

BNR32FAN · May 14, 2021

Kermos said:
Your question is non-sequitor because as this post clearly shows, the word "grace" is not in Romans 2:4-5.

You are trying to associate "grace" with repentance where "grace" is not mentioned in Romans 2:4-5.

And yet you would be the first person to admit that no one can possibly repent unless God has granted that person grace. Just because the word grace is not specifically written in the passage doesn’t mean that it is not referring to grace. The word Trinity isn’t written in the entire Bible and yet it is referred to several times.

BNR32FAN · May 14, 2021

Kermos said:
Your question is non-sequitor because as this post clearly shows, the word "grace" is not in Romans 2:4-5.

You are trying to associate "grace" with repentance where "grace" is not mentioned in Romans 2:4-5.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, the word "grace" is mentioned, and "grace" is associated with salvation.

You are adding the word "grace" where "grace" is not mentioned, so you are adding to scripture, and adding to scripture is lying.

It is written "Do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Liars are mentioned in relation to the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

You have no cause for calling me a liar, I’m trying to have a civilized discussion here, I’m not interested in a bunch of name calling and false accusations. I never said the word grace is in Romans 2:4-5 so your accusation of me being a liar is unwarranted. In Romans 2:4-5 Paul specifically states that God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance. The only way God can be leading someone to repentance this thru grace. So either He has bestowed grace upon them and is leading them to repentance or He has not bestowed grace upon them and is not leading them to repentance. God cannot be leading them to repentance without bestowing His grace upon them.

Butterball1 · May 15, 2021

Kermos said:
God saves (Psalm 3:8, John 15:5),

Hi.

I think most eveyone here agrees that God saves the issue is who does God save and why, why are some men saved and others not? From the Bible we can see both in the OT and NT the basis as to why some men are saved and others not is obedience to God's will. In the OT God had mercy upon those who obey, no mercy for those who will not obey (Jeremiah 18:7-10). In the NT Christ saves those who obey him (Hebrews 5:9) those who believe and baptized (obey) (Mark 16:16) are saved, those who repent and baptized (obey) are saved (Acts 2:38) those who confess (obey) are saved (Matthew 10:32-33). And there is no example in the Bible of men who obeyed God that their obedience said to have earned God's free gift. So God does not save men capriciously, unconditionally apart from man's obedience to God's will.

Kermos said:
and man has no say in the matter (John 15:16).

This context has to do with Christ choosing men from among His disciples to take on the office of an Apostle. It has nothing to do with any capricious, unconditional election of men to salvation. Even John Calvin says of this verse "True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel. But if it was by free gift, and not by their own merit, that they were chosen to the apostolic office..."

Men must choose to serve either "sin unto death" (condemnation) or choose to serve "obedience unto righteousness" (salvation), Romans 6:16. Thise that use their free will to obey God (choose to serve obedience unto righteousness) are in that sense "save themselves" (Acts of the Apostles 2:40; 1 Timothy 4:16) "cleanse ourselves" (2 Corinthians 7:1). "You have purifed you souls" How? "by obeying the truth" (1 Peter 1:22) Hence man has arole in his own salvation by obeying God's will and those that do are in that sense saving themselves. They are not saving themselves by themselves but saving themsevles by meeting the preconditions God has put upon salvation.

Kermos said:
God sanctifies (Leviticus 20:8, John 15:5).

But we know from the Bible that God does not sanctify men capricuously, unconditionally or for some unknown reason but sanctifies those who obey His word (John 17:17). 2 Timothy 2:21 a man must choose to purge himself to be sanctified. Sanctification conditionally occurs only to only those "in Christ" and it takes obedience in submitting to baptism to be in Christ (Galatians 3:27; Ephesians 5:26). So sanctification does not, cannot happen unconditionally apart from the word (truth) part from being in Christ, apart from obedience to God's will.....

The Bible Doctrine of Sanctification

Kermos said:
God gets all glory in the salvation and sanctification of man (Isaiah 42:8).

Yes, because apart from God salvation is impossible for man cannot save himself by himself, man's righteousness (obedience) will not be sinlessly perfect thereby leaving man still in need of God's grace (Luke 17:10). Salvation therefore is a combination of God's grace and man's obedience to God's will....man choosing to obey God.

Kermos · May 15, 2021

To @BNR32FAN and others regarding repentance.

Romans 2:4-5 does not include "choose" nor it's conjugates, so there is no choosing God therein.

Romans 2:4-5 does not include "free will", so there is no free will to repent therein.

Romans 2:4-5 includes "leads to repentance", so this is akin to a road to a destination but not including the destination ("leads to" = "road to" and "repentance" = "destination").

Acts 11:18 has a chorus of Apostles declaring "God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance to life", so this is akin to a destination (harkening back to the previous paragraph example).

Righteous repentance is the work of God per Acts 11:18, so repentance is not a work of man, but, rather, God grants repentance (Acts 11:18).

Romans 2:4-5 shows the power of God, yet you try to add to and subtract from scripture to make it the power of man.

In order to maintain a cohesive thread, I am including this link to my previous to you on the matter of Romans 2:4-5 and repentance.

The definition of "repent" is "think differently afterward"; therefore, God grants this "thinking differently afterward" (Acts 11:18) to persons from the point that the person encounters God then including after the initial encounter as well.

BNR32FAN · May 16, 2021

Kermos said:
Romans 2:4-5 includes "leads to repentance", so this is akin to a road to a destination but not including the destination ("leads to" = "road to" and "repentance" = "destination").

Ahh so your saying that thru God’s kindness and patience He is leading them on a dead end road to eternal suffering in the lake of fire? Wow I’m literally…wait I can’t stop…WEEEEEEEW!!! I haven’t laughed that hard in a long time!! Wow I guess Paul’s definition of kindness and patience is a lot different than mine. I mean, I’m struggling quite hard to understand how leading someone to eternal suffering in the lake of fire could possibly be construed as kindness and patience. For some reason I see that as a complete lack of kindness or patience, but hey that’s just me.

Kermos · Jun 1, 2021

bling said:
Luke 6: 13 When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14 Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6: 70 Then Jesus replied, ??Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!??

Jesus has said before including Judas that He chose them and there is no mention of salvation. You are adding the idea of His choosing to save these 11. Judas was ??chosen?? out of the world also, since the world is the set of all people at that time.

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) was spoken in the presence of the 11 apostles*: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas son of James, by Lord Jesus.

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) was NOT spoken in the presence of Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) includes salvation because Lord Jesus says "out of the world".

You added to the Word of God when you wrote "Judas was 'chosen' out of the world" because neither Luke 6:13-16 nor John 6:70 state "out of the world".

Luke 6:13-16 and John 6:70 refers to the choosing of the 12 apostles (6/2/2021 correction, fix "nor" to be "and").

bling said:
Again you are piecing together Words Peter uses to describe one thing with words Jesus used in a different place to describe something else.

It sounds like you are opposed to taking scripture with scripture.

God gives followers of the Way a profound link between "world"/"earth" in 2 Peter 3:7 and "world" in John 15:19.

bling said:
John 6: 60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, ??This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it??? and 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 ??You do not want to leave too, do you??? Jesus asked the Twelve.

Jesus asked for their answer, so they had a choice also. We all have a choice to make.

Here is an accurate translation of John 6:60, "Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard, said, 'This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?'"

Here is John 6:67 plus verses 68-70:

67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?"

Look carefully, bling, there is action mentioned for the apostles with "do not want to go away" (John 6:67); on the other hand, there is a mention of choice in the passage, and that mention of choice is restricted to Jesus choosing the twelve.

No, there is no choice by persons that are chosen by Lord Jesus for Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27).

Essentially, that "when they heard" and "who can listen to it" (John 6:60) is about hearing; furthermore, "My sheep hear My voice" (John 10:27) is about hearing.

About hearing, it is written:

32 They brought to Him one who was deaf and spoke with difficulty, and they implored Him to lay His hand on him.
33 Jesus took him aside from the crowd, by himself, and put His fingers into his ears, and after spitting, He touched his tongue [with the saliva];
34 and looking up to heaven with a deep sigh, He said to him, "Ephphatha!" that is, "Be opened!"
35 And his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue was removed, and he [began] speaking plainly.

bling, do you see that "And his ears were opened"? That is God opening the ears!

The deaf do not understand the Word, so the Word must open the ears.

Back in John 6:67-70, the 11 apostles* were never snatched out of Lord Jesus' Hand (John 10:27-29) for the 11 apostles* hear Christ Jesus the Lord, yet the apostle Judas Iscariot was chosen for a purpose - and that apostle Judas did exactly that which God had the prophets prophesy about Judas.

bling said:
The ??work?? is the ??work?? = believe which is what people can do spiritually and that is the ??work?? god has assigned to people to do. And not the work God does. In the context the people are asking about the work they can do and not what God does.

I'm going to carefully disect your last paragraph.

bling wrote: The "work" is the "work" = believe

Up to that point, your statement is accurate.

bling wrote: which is what people can do spiritually and that is the "work" god has assigned to people to do

The word "ordained" is another word that works in the place of your word "assigned"

bling wrote: And not the work God does

In that clause of yours, bling, you flat out contradict Word of God Who says "This is the work of God" (John 6:28); therefore, you, a mere mortal person, loses, and the Word of God wins, so this is THE WORK OF GOD being spoken of regarding "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

bling wrote: In the context the people are asking about the work they can do and not what God does

Lord Jesus removed the work of man mentioned by the people in John 6:28 when Lord Jesus answered with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Man manipulates belief/faith in order to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (bling's book of 2nd Opinions), but the Word of God declares your interpretation to be deception even before you, bling, even existed.

God works belief/faith in man in order for man to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Butterball1 · Jun 1, 2021

Kermos said:
To @BNR32FAN and others regarding repentance.

Romans 2:4-5 does not include "choose" nor it's conjugates, so there is no choosing God therein.

Romans 2:4-5 does not include "free will", so there is no free will to repent therein.

Romans 2:4-5 includes "leads to repentance", so this is akin to a road to a destination but not including the destination ("leads to" = "road to" and "repentance" = "destination").

Acts 11:18 has a chorus of Apostles declaring "God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance to life", so this is akin to a destination (harkening back to the previous paragraph example).

Righteous repentance is the work of God per Acts 11:18, so repentance is not a work of man, but, rather, God grants repentance (Acts 11:18).

Romans 2:4-5 shows the power of God, yet you try to add to and subtract from scripture to make it the power of man.

In order to maintain a cohesive thread, I am including this link to my previous to you on the matter of Romans 2:4-5 and repentance.

The definition of "repent" is "think differently afterward"; therefore, God grants this "thinking differently afterward" (Acts 11:18) to persons from the point that the person encounters God then including after the initial encounter as well.

Men have been commanded to repent (Acts 2:38) with the imperative implying man has both ability and responsibilty to repent. Those men who fail this command to repent will be lost.

Repentance is a work man does, (Matthew 12:41) Nineveh repented and their repentance is called a work that God saw (Jonah 3:10).

When God 'granted' the Gentiles repentance means God gave the Gentiles the privilege, opportunity to repent and be saved. It was therefore the responsibility of the Gentiles to take advantage of that opportunity given them to repent and be saved. God does not repent for men for that would make God culpable for the impenitent. There would be no need or sense to command men to repent if man cannot possibly do so himself.
"When Peter declared to his Hebrew kinsmen that God had “granted” (given) the Gentiles “repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18), the sense was this. The Gentiles, along with their Jewish neighbors, were granted the opportunity to repent. The text certainly does not suggest that they had no responsibility to act themselves in the repentance process (cf. Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30)."
Is Faith the Gift of Ephesians 2:8?

The granting or giving of repentance was God's role in the salvation of the Gentiles. The responsibility was still upon the Gentiles to repent and thereby take advantage of what God 'gave' them.
"In what sense did God “give” people to his Son? The terms “gift” and “given” are frequently employed idiomatically in the Scriptures to denote divine favor as expressed in Heaven’s redemptive work on man’s behalf — without there being any inclination of an “unconditional election.”

For example, David prophesied that Jehovah would “give” the “nations” (Gentiles) to Christ as an inheritance (Psa. 2:8; cf. Acts 4:25-26). Surely no one will contend that all Gentiles were unconditionally predestined to salvation irrespective of their response to divine truth. Even the most cursory examination of the book of Acts, from chapter 10 onward, reveals that the Gentiles were admitted into redemptive favor by yielding to the requirements of the gospel (which includes repenting). Salvation was not as a consequence of an eternal decree independent of human obedience (cf. Acts 10:34-35,43; 11:14; 15:8-9; 1 Pet. 1:22-23)."
Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?

Every single Gentile was not unconditionally 'given' to Christ but God gave the Gentiles opportunity to be of Christ thru repentance. It was still incumbent upon the Gentiles to take advantage of that repentance God granted to them in order for them to be of Christ.

Kermos · Jun 2, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
I LOVE 2Thess 2:13.

Those who do some research for the Greek words realize that the word for "chose" isn't related to the Greek words translated "elected". That word is "ekloge".

The word in 2 Thess 2:13 is "haireomai".

So, Paul was NOT referring to election in 2 Thess 2:13.

But, nice try.

The Greek word in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 for "choose" is εἵλατο, and it is Strong's Greek: 138. αἱρέομαι (haireó) -- to take, choose ; therefore, Paul precisely represents God's choosing of man unto salvation.

As distasteful and bitter in your mouth as it is that God controls salvation yet you are incapable of any work unto salvation not even a choice of Jesus.

"God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" wrote Paul (2 Thessalonians 2:13), so that "God has chosen" is tied directly to "salvation".

The meaning of God being in control of salvation remains the same.

Only deceivers would assert that the 2 Thessalonians 2:13 passage does not include that God chooses persons unto salvation.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

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He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

He’s a Way of life

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

He’s a Way of life

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

He’s a Way of life

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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