How is Verification of Apostles done today?

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Absolutely not.

When a person has a corporate speaking ministry, it is by Holy Spirit utterance, you and your mind are not to be involved in the message.

When a tongues, interpretation, or gift of prophesying message is given correctly, there will be a tangible edification to your spirit during the message, and the peace of The Holy Spirit will drop down in the congregation verifying it was Him.

Without that edification and peace happening from The Holy Spirit during the message, it was just the person speaking by their own spirit, or worse yet, an evil spirit.
There is such a thing as a false peace. It was the result of the false Old Testament prophets who prophesied that even though there was idol worship everything would be okay and Israel will continue having victory over its enemies, when the truth was totally different. Hence the Scripture "peace, peace when there is no peace."

I am sure that King Ahab felt built up and had a strong sense of peace through the prophecies of his 400 prophets in whom God had a lying spirit to enter.

The judgment of New Testament prophecy has to be on a firmer foundation than just a feeling of peace and being built up. Thousands of people are having the same set of feelings under the ministry of the health and wealth preachers and their false prophecies.

Further more, if New Testament prophecy was from the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then why are all these prophecies not written down and added to the New Testament? After all, if they are by direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit, they are the equivalent of Holy Scripture, aren't they?

Paul must have heard hundreds of prophecies in the churches he founded and visited. How come he never wrote them down and added them to his letters, and was never concerned that most of them were never remembered after the meetings? You would think that prophetic word directly inspired by the Holy Spirit would concern Paul and he would have made sure that they were written down and formed another New Testament book called "The Prophetic Words of the Church". But there is no such book.

The one prophecy that was directly inspired was the one through the prophets at Antioch: "Separate to me Barnabas and Paul for the work I have called them", and it was written down. There were other direct words to Paul that were also written down, such as, "Fear not. No one will attack you for I have many people in this city". Two prophecies by Agabus were recorded in Acts, while many others he spoke were never recorded, but if they were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit, they should have been, shouldn't they?

I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit is active in our churches, because He is active in those who love the Lord and who are faithful to him in the manifestation of the gifts. I also believe that He still speaks to believers to comfort, exhort and build them up. But what He speaks is not the direct "dictation" that the Old Testament prophets received and were not to be judged but accepted as the direct Word of God to the people.

But no New Covenant believer has such a direct line to God that he can get up and say, "This is what the Lord is saying". To get up and say that, is presumption. For someone to give a personal prophecy to another, saying, "The Lord has told me to say this to you", is not Holy Spirit, but spiritual manipulation of the other person, using God's "authority" to force the speaker's will on him. Therefore what is said is not God's will but the will of the person giving the prophecy. Whole church congregations can be manipulated in this way by a person forcing their will on the people by giving prophecies containing, "This is what the Lord is saying", and then telling anyone attempting to judge the prophecy that they are "disobeying the Lord and bringing judgment upon themselves".

I don't despise prophecy. I welcome it. But prophecy is not Scripture to be obeyed without question. I also welcome judgment of every prophecy given, and where a prophecy is not in harmony with Scripture, it should be pointed out and the people told to safely ignore it. If it is in harmony with Scripture then the prophecy should be affirmed as true and people should accept it as a blessing. For personal prophecies, they should confirm something that God has already said to the hearer, or else they should be rejected, or at least the hearer should say, "I will reserve my judgment of your prophecy until the Lord says it to me directly as well.
 
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Systematic Theology - Wayne Grudem (a prominent and respected continuist scholar)

1. Apostle. Earlier in this book we saw that the New Testament apostles had a unique kind of authority in the early church: authority to speak and write words which were “words of God” in an absolute sense. To disbelieve or disobey them was to disbelieve or disobey God. The apostles, therefore, had the authority to write words which became words of Scripture. This fact in itself should suggest to us that there was something unique about the office of apostle, and that we would not expect it to continue today, for no one today can add words to the Bible and have them be counted as God’s very words or as part of Scripture.

In addition, the New Testament information on the qualifications of an apostle and the identity of the apostles also leads us to conclude that the office was unique and limited to the first century, and that we are to expect no more apostles today. We shall see this as we ask the following questions: What were the requirements for being an apostle? Who were the apostles? How many apostles were there? And are there apostles today? At the outset it must be made clear that the answers to these questions depend on what one means by the word apostle. Today some people use the word apostle in a very broad sense, to refer to an effective church planter, or to a significant missionary pioneer (“William Carey was an apostle to India,” for example). If we use the word apostle in this broad sense, everyone would agree that there are still apostles today— for there are certainly effective missionaries and church planters today.

The New Testament itself has three verses in which the word apostle (Gk. ἀπόστολος, G693) is used in a broad sense, not to refer to any specific church office, but simply to mean “messenger.” In Philippians 2:25, Paul calls Epaphroditus “your messenger (ἀπόστολος) and minister to my need”; in 2 Corinthians 8:23, Paul refers to those who accompanied the offering that he was taking to Jerusalem as “messengers [ἀπόστολοι from ἀπόστολος (G693)] of the churches”; and in John 13:16, Jesus says, “Nor is he who is sent [ἀπόστολος] greater than he who sent him.”

But there is another sense for the word apostle. Much more frequently in the New Testament the word refers to a special office, “apostle of Jesus Christ.” In this narrow sense of the term, there are no more apostles today, and we are to expect no more. This is because of what the New Testament says about the qualifications for being an apostle and about who the apostles were.

a. Qualifications of an Apostle: The two qualifications for being an apostle were (1) having seen Jesus after his resurrection with one’s own eyes (thus, being an “eyewitness of the resurrection”), and (2) having been specifically commissioned by Christ as his apostle.

The fact that an apostle had to have seen the risen Lord with his own eyes is indicated by Acts 1:22, where Peter said that person to replace Judas “must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” Moreover, it was “to the apostles whom he had chosen” that “he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days” (Acts 1:2–3; cf. 4:33).

Paul makes much of the fact that he did meet this qualification even though it was in an unusual way (Christ appeared to him in a vision on the road to Damascus and appointed him as an apostle: Acts 9:5–6; 26:15–18). When he is defending his apostleship he says, “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor. 9:1). And when recounting the people to whom Christ appeared after his resurrection, Paul says, “Then he appeared to James then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle” (1 Cor. 15:7–9).

These verses combine to indicate that unless someone had seen Jesus after the resurrection with his own eyes, he could not be an apostle.

The second qualification, specific appointment by Christ as an apostle, is also evident from several verses. First, though the term apostle is not common in the gospels, the twelve disciples are called “apostles” specifically in a context where Jesus is commissioning them, “sending them out” to preach in his name: And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these....These twelve Jesus sent out charging them, “...preach as you go, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”’ (Matt. 10:1–7)

Similarly, Jesus commissions his apostles in a special sense to be his “witnesses...to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8). And in choosing another apostle to replace Judas, the eleven apostles did not take the responsibility on themselves, but prayed and asked the ascended Christ to make the appointment:
“Lord, who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside....” And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:24–26)

Paul himself insists that Christ personally appointed him as an apostle. He tells how, on the Damascus Road, Jesus told him that he was appointing him as an apostle to the Gentiles: “I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and to bear witness...delivering you from the people and from the Gentiles—to whom I send you” (Acts 26:16–17). He later affirms that he was specifically appointed by Christ as an apostle (see Rom. 1:1; Gal. 1:1; 1 Tim. 1:12; 2:7; 2 Tim. 1:11).

b. Who Were Apostles? The initial group of apostles numbered twelve—the eleven original disciples who remained after Judas died, plus Matthias, who replaced Judas: “And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles” (Acts 1:26). So important was this original group of twelve apostles, the “charter members” of the office of apostle, that we read that their names are inscribed on the foundations of the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem: “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Rev. 21:14).

We might at first think that such a group could never be expanded, that no one could be added to it. But then Paul clearly claims that he, also, is an apostle. And Acts 14:14 calls both Barnabas and Paul apostles: “when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it....” So with Paul and Barnabas there are fourteen “apostles of Jesus Christ.”

Then James the brother of Jesus (who was not one of the twelve original disciples) seems to be called an apostle in Galatians 1:19: Paul tells how, when he went to Jerusalem, “I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.”6 Then in Galatians 2:9 James is classified with Peter and John as “pillars” of the Jerusalem church. And in Acts 15:13–21, James, along with Peter, exercises a significant leadership function in the Jerusalem Council, a function which would be appropriate to the office of apostle. Furthermore, when Paul is listing the resurrection appearances of Jesus he once again readily classifies James with the apostles: Then he appeared to James then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Cor. 15:7–9)

Finally, the fact that James could write the New Testament epistle which bears his name would also be entirely consistent with his having the authority which belonged to the office of apostle, the authority to write words which were the words of God. All these considerations combine to indicate that James the Lord’s brother was also commissioned by Christ as an apostle. That would bring the number to fifteen “apostles of Jesus Christ” (the twelve plus Paul, Barnabas, and James).

Were there more than these fifteen? There may possibly have been a few more, though we know little if anything about them, and it is not certain that there were any more. Others, of course, had seen Jesus after his resurrection (“Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time,” 1 Cor. 15:6). From this large group it is possible that Christ appointed some others as apostles—but it is also very possible that he did not. The evidence is not sufficient to decide the issue.
...
It seems that no apostles were appointed after Paul, and certainly, since no one today can meet the qualification of having seen the risen Christ with his own eyes, there are no apostles today. In place of living apostles present in the church to teach and govern it, we have instead the writings of the apostles in the books of the New Testament. Those New Testament Scriptures fulfill for the church today the absolutely authoritative teaching and governing functions which were fulfilled by the apostles themselves during the early years of the church.

Though some may use the word apostle in English today to refer to very effective church planters or evangelists, it seems inappropriate and unhelpful to do so, for it simply confuses people who read the New Testament and see the high authority that is attributed to the office of “apostle” there. It is noteworthy that no major leader in the history of the church—not Athanasius or Augustine, not Luther or Calvin, not Wesley or Whitefield—has taken to himself the title of “apostle” or let himself be called an apostle. If any in modern times want to take the title “apostle” to themselves, they immediately raise the suspicion that they may be motivated by inappropriate pride and desires for self-exaltation, along with excessive ambition and a desire for much more authority in the church than any one person should rightfully have.

Footnotes:

Someone may object that Christ could appear to someone today and appoint that person as an apostle. But the foundational nature of the office of apostle (Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:14) and the fact that Paul views himself as the last one whom Christ appeared to and appointed as an apostle (“last of all, as to one untimely born,” 1 Cor. 15:8), indicate that this will not happen. Moreover, God’s purpose in the history of redemption seems to have been to give apostles only at the beginning of the church age (see Eph. 2:20).

Another objection to the idea that there are no apostles today, one that comes especially from people in the charismatic movement, is the argument that the “fivefold ministry” of Eph. 4:11 should continue today, and we should have (1) apostles, (2) prophets, (3) evangelists, (4) pastors, and (5) teachers, since Paul says that Christ “gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11 NASB). However, Eph. 4:11 talks about a one-time event in the past (note the aorist καὶ ἔδωκεν, from δίδωμι, G1443, “and he gave”), when Christ ascended into heaven (vv. 8–10) and then at Pentecost poured out initial giftings on the church, giving the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers (or pastors and teachers). Whether or not Christ would later give more people for each of these offices cannot be decided from this verse alone but must be decided based on other New Testament teachings on the nature of these offices and whether they were expected to continue. In fact, we see that there were many prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers established by Christ throughout all of the early churches, but there was only one more apostle given after this initial time (Paul, “last of all,” in unusual circumstances on the Damascus Road).
A very good and comprehensive account of the ministry of an apostle. As John Calvin said in his commentary of 1 Corinthians 1: "Anyone can be called an apostle, but he has to be one."
 
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topher694

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All prophesy that comes from God also comes through a human filter, because God speaks to us in a way we can understand and rearticulate. Meaning even though it is from God it will sound like us and use images and vocabulary we understand and can express.
 
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But what proof would you or any commentator have to make this statement?

I mean, think about it for a sec. Paul is sending out a letter from him and Timothy, and you think Timothy did not at the very least read the letter and agree with its contents? Did he not have any say in its contents? That at the very least classifies him as a co-author.

Or was Paul's apostleship dictatorial in some way? If it was, why would he even bother listing these other names in the beginning of these letters? Or is it not more likely, given the heart of Paul displayed in these letters, and given the introductions to some of them, that it was a team effort?

This view actually solves a number of problems of authenticity and is a more plausible explanation for the almost-Pauline style of Hebrews.

Not to mention Tertius who also acted as a scribe. And Silas' scribing for Peter. Even if they only acted as editors, that would still indicate a hand in writing scripture that is not of the apostles (depending if one views these other guys as apostles or not).

There is a growing scholarship view, by the way, that indicates these NT writings were a team effort.
There is also a growing scholarship view that Jesus was not a real historical person, that Paul did not exist, God is not a real person, the virgin birth didn't happen, and there was no resurrection. So, one must pick the meat from the bones with any scholarship view.
 
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ARBITER01

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There is such a thing as a false peace. It was the result of the false Old Testament prophets who prophesied that even though there was idol worship everything would be okay and Israel will continue having victory over its enemies, when the truth was totally different. Hence the Scripture "peace, peace when there is no peace."

I am sure that King Ahab felt built up and had a strong sense of peace through the prophecies of his 400 prophets in whom God had a lying spirit to enter.

The judgment of New Testament prophecy has to be on a firmer foundation than just a feeling of peace and being built up. Thousands of people are having the same set of feelings under the ministry of the health and wealth preachers and their false prophecies.

Further more, if New Testament prophecy was from the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then why are all these prophecies not written down and added to the New Testament? After all, if they are by direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit, they are the equivalent of Holy Scripture, aren't they?


Oscarr, if I remember correctly, you come from a Presbyterian background that had no operation of the gifts corporately. Basically, you were on your own trying to figure it out.

I come from an Assemblies of GOD background where we have had the gifts operate corporately every Sunday. It was routine to have The Holy Spirit give utterance with tongues, interpretation, and prophesying by 2 or 3 people every service. It was also routine to watch the Holy Spirit in action and learn from Him on the spot. I've had no better teacher.

I explained to you what happens when someone gives an utterance by The Holy Spirit in the corporate setting and how The Holy Spirit witnesses to it,...you doubted that,...which only means to me that you have yet to experience the gifts this way. I would say you probably only know them from a personal capacity rather than their intended use in the corporate assembly.

On your point about why the NT Gift of Prophecy is not added to scripture,....as I have said all along,...it is not a revelation gift. It is one of the inspirational gifts for the assembly. It is no better than tongues with interpretation. By scripture they are equal in operation.

There's a reason why Paul never described using the gift of prophesying in a personal capacity, only in the corporate setting, because that is what it is meant for.

The only gift that operates in the futuristic/predictive capacity is the word of wisdom. It works predominately, almost exclusively, in Prophets, hence why Agabus had to come down and give the revelation about what was going to happen to Paul rather than the 3 virgin daughters who prophesied in Acts.
 
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There is such a thing as a false peace. It was the result of the false Old Testament prophets who prophesied that even though there was idol worship everything would be okay and Israel will continue having victory over its enemies, when the truth was totally different. Hence the Scripture "peace, peace when there is no peace."

I am sure that King Ahab felt built up and had a strong sense of peace through the prophecies of his 400 prophets in whom God had a lying spirit to enter.

The judgment of New Testament prophecy has to be on a firmer foundation than just a feeling of peace and being built up. Thousands of people are having the same set of feelings under the ministry of the health and wealth preachers and their false prophecies.

Further more, if New Testament prophecy was from the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then why are all these prophecies not written down and added to the New Testament? After all, if they are by direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit, they are the equivalent of Holy Scripture, aren't they?


Oscarr, if I remember correctly, you come from a Presbyterian background that had no operation of the gifts corporately. Basically, you were on your own trying to figure it out.

I come from an Assemblies of GOD background where we have had the gifts operate corporately every Sunday. It was routine to have The Holy Spirit give utterance with tongues, interpretation, and prophesying by 2 or 3 people every service. It was also routine to watch the Holy Spirit in action and learn from Him on the spot. I've had no better teacher.

I explained to you what happens when someone gives an utterance by The Holy Spirit in the corporate setting and how The Holy Spirit witnesses to it,...you doubted that,...which only means to me that you have yet to experience the gifts this way. I would say you probably only know them from a personal capacity rather than their intended use in the corporate assembly.

On your point about why NT Prophecy is not added to scripture,....as I have said all along,...it is not a revelation gift. It is one of the inspirational gifts for the assembly. It is no better than tongues with interpretation. By scripture they are equal in operation.

There's a reason why Paul never described using the gift of prophesying in a personal capacity, only in the corporate setting, because that is what it is meant for.

The only gift that operates in the futuristic/predictive capacity is the word of wisdom. It works predominately, almost exclusively, in Prophets, hence why Agabus had to come down and give the revelation about what was going to happen to Paul rather than the 3 virgin daughters who prophesied in Acts.
Actualy, I was converted to Christ in the AOG church in Lower Hutt NZ, under the ministry of Trevor Chandler. Everything you say about the ministry of the Holy Spirit I believe without question. I spent the first 12 years of my Christian life in the Pentecostal movement. For three years I was discipled and trained in the ministry of the Holy Spirit by a strict, traditional Pentecostal pastor whose background was the Holiness movement. On two occasions, at a weekend conference, he prayed down the glory of God on the Saturday night meeting using tongues. When he prayed in a particular type of language in tongues, you just knew something was going to happen. When I started to use the gift of prophecy, he affirmed it, telling me that my gift was genuine and that I should value it and not "let it go".

I have been involved in the Presbyterian church for the last 23 years, as well as being involved in a Spirit-filled prophetic ministry, run by that pastor's son-in-law. He told me that the most powerful prophecies he had ever heard was from a group of Charismatic Presbyterian elders.

Even though I was an elder in the Presbyterian church, I did not abandon my Pentecostal theology or the training given by the strict pastor. He trained me from 1970-73, and his training stood the test of time, when the training of all my other mentors faded into history.

I am sharing this with you to show that my views on prophecy come from teaching and training well founded in Scripture. The pastor told me that in order to be prophetic, one must be a man of prayer and of the Word.

When CF had a prophetic ministry forum, I spent six months providing prophetic words to those who requested them. I think I gave a couple of hundred before some started trying to use me as their private horoscope, and I agreed with the Lord that I should withdraw my offer. Out of all those prophecies, only one person told me that she didn't understand it. I told her to put it on the back burner and ignored it unless something happened to make it relevant.

I have given prophetic words as a Presbyterian elder, but not in the AOG KJV manner as many did when I started out in the late 1960s while I was still with the AOG. I would say, "If Jesus was here, He might say this to you". That was quite acceptable, rather than the presumptuous, "This is what the Lord is saying".

I trust that this fills in some of the gaps in your knowledge of me. :wave:
 
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ARBITER01

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Actualy, I was converted to Christ in the AOG church in Lower Hutt NZ, under the ministry of Trevor Chandler. Everything you say about the ministry of the Holy Spirit I believe without question. I spent the first 12 years of my Christian life in the Pentecostal movement. For three years I was discipled and trained in the ministry of the Holy Spirit by a strict, traditional Pentecostal pastor whose background was the Holiness movement. On two occasions, at a weekend conference, he prayed down the glory of God on the Saturday night meeting using tongues. When he prayed in a particular type of language in tongues, you just knew something was going to happen. When I started to use the gift of prophecy, he affirmed it, telling me that my gift was genuine and that I should value it and not "let it go".

I have been involved in the Presbyterian church for the last 23 years, as well as being involved in a Spirit-filled prophetic ministry, run by that pastor's son-in-law. He told me that the most powerful prophecies he had ever heard was from a group of Charismatic Presbyterian elders.

Even though I was an elder in the Presbyterian church, I did not abandon my Pentecostal theology or the training given by the strict pastor. He trained me from 1970-73, and his training stood the test of time, when the training of all my other mentors faded into history.

I am sharing this with you to show that my views on prophecy come from teaching and training well founded in Scripture. The pastor told me that in order to be prophetic, one must be a man of prayer and of the Word.

When CF had a prophetic ministry forum, I spent six months providing prophetic words to those who requested them. I think I gave a couple of hundred before some started trying to use me as their private horoscope, and I agreed with the Lord that I should withdraw my offer. Out of all those prophecies, only one person told me that she didn't understand it. I told her to put it on the back burner and ignored it unless something happened to make it relevant.

I have given prophetic words as a Presbyterian elder, but not in the AOG KJV manner as many did when I started out in the late 1960s while I was still with the AOG. I would say, "If Jesus was here, He might say this to you". That was quite acceptable, rather than the presumptuous, "This is what the Lord is saying".

I trust that this fills in some of the gaps in your knowledge of me. :wave:


That's good Oscarr, I don't remember you ever saying that your background originated with AOG.

I don't doubt that you have the gift of prophesying, I just have questions over your use of it you describe. It seems you think this gift does more than what scripture teaches, as in it being revelatory and for personal use that way to people. I obviously disagree.

As I've already stated, it is no better than tongues with interpretation. They are on equal footing in scripture.
 
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Hawkins

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How is Verification of Apostles done today?

Apostle is a ranking anointed and granted by God. Even Paul doesn't deny the possibility that apostles can be part of a church built back then. In a nutshell, it's God's business to send an apostle. An apostle, from my understanding, is a witness or possibly an eyewitness of Jesus. He will participate in crafting the New Testament or will play a key role in preaching the gosple to the four corners of the world, such as building up God's Church on earth.

So it's up to God to define precisely who has been anointed to be an apostle. However from the Bible left for us, we can name some. We know at least Paul and the twelve (excluding Judas Iscariot). More likely James, the brother of Jesus, is another. There could be more.
 
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That's good Oscarr, I don't remember you ever saying that your background originated with AOG.

I don't doubt that you have the gift of prophesying, I just have questions over your use of it you describe. It seems you think this gift does more than what scripture teaches, as in it being revelatory and for personal use that way to people. I obviously disagree.

As I've already stated, it is no better than tongues with interpretation. They are on equal footing in scripture.
I don't know if you read my previous posts about how I advise people who request a prophetic word from me. My view is that if I am asked for a word for someone, I ask the Lord for wisdom to say the right thing (that is promised in the Scripture, "If any man lacks wisdom God will give it to him"). I am clear with the person that what I am saying is what has come to mind, and if they confirm that it is prophetic for them, then it is prophetic, otherwise it is merely good, encouraging advice from me. This is because the impact of a prophetic word is not determined by the speaker, but by the hearer.

I have read Christian books, commentaries, heard sermons where sentences and paragraphs have been prophetic for me, even though the author wasn't aware that he was being prophetic. I have detected the prophetic in John MacArthur's messages that I have viewed on Youtube, in spite of him believing that the gift of prophecy is not for today's church. He has actually manifested prophecy in his sermons! There have been times when I have been given advice over some issue that has turned out to be prophetic because I have recognised it as being inspired by the Holy Spirit for me, yet the person was not trying to give me a prophecy.

However, after giving one prophetic word to a CF member, he was so impressed with the accuracy of it, that he asked me if I ate prophetic cornflakes for breakfast and drove a prophetic car to work! We have a visitor in our Presbyterian church who was gifted in the area of prophecy, and he gave a prophecy to our Session Clerk which was amazingly accurate, in spite of them not knowing each other before that Sunday morning. He gave prophetic words to others in the congregation, which were happily accepted as words of encouragement and edification. He didn't come across as all dramatic as a "prophet". He just spoke to each one quietly and normally, just like one person giving advice to another.

The power of a prophetic word is contained in what is actually being said, and not so much in the way it is being said. A prophecy in KJV English is no more a prophecy than one spoken in normal everyday English, in our case, colloquial New Zealand English. It is interesting that Paul did not describe himself as a eloquent speaker using perfect grammar, and yet what he did say demonstrated the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is also very interesting that John's gospel is written in the most simple form of Koini Greek (so simple that folk learning New Testament Greek are encouraged to work with John's Gospel first). Matthew and Luke's Greek was more involved and complicated. Maybe it was because John was a relatively uneducated fisherman before he became an Apostle, while Matthew the tax collector and Luke the physician were better educated.

In actual fact, "Jesus loves you" when spoken prophetically to a person at the right time can be one of the most powerful prophecies one can receive.
 
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topher694

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I'm going to throw a couple things out there. First, I think it's worth mentioning there are 2 forms of revelation, personal revelation and what I call canonical revelation. Prophecy can bring personal revelation, but it will no longer bring the type of revelation that will add to or change the canon of scripture. Personal revelation can and often is about scripture, but it is a personal revelation of the already written word.

Second, one does not have to be a prophet to operate in a word of wisdom. The word of wisdom is a gift to the entire Body of Christ just as much as any of the others. A prophet operating in the gift, however, will operate at a greater level of authority and wider influence than someone who is not in the office, therefore it is often more visible.
 
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ARBITER01

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I don't know if you read my previous posts about how I advise people who request a prophetic word from me. My view is that if I am asked for a word for someone, I ask the Lord for wisdom to say the right thing (that is promised in the Scripture, "If any man lacks wisdom God will give it to him"). I am clear with the person that what I am saying is what has come to mind, and if they confirm that it is prophetic for them, then it is prophetic, otherwise it is merely good, encouraging advice from me. This is because the impact of a prophetic word is not determined by the speaker, but by the hearer.

I have read Christian books, commentaries, heard sermons where sentences and paragraphs have been prophetic for me, even though the author wasn't aware that he was being prophetic. I have detected the prophetic in John MacArthur's messages that I have viewed on Youtube, in spite of him believing that the gift of prophecy is not for today's church. He has actually manifested prophecy in his sermons! There have been times when I have been given advice over some issue that has turned out to be prophetic because I have recognised it as being inspired by the Holy Spirit for me, yet the person was not trying to give me a prophecy.

However, after giving one prophetic word to a CF member, he was so impressed with the accuracy of it, that he asked me if I ate prophetic cornflakes for breakfast and drove a prophetic car to work! We have a visitor in our Presbyterian church who was gifted in the area of prophecy, and he gave a prophecy to our Session Clerk which was amazingly accurate, in spite of them not knowing each other before that Sunday morning. He gave prophetic words to others in the congregation, which were happily accepted as words of encouragement and edification. He didn't come across as all dramatic as a "prophet". He just spoke to each one quietly and normally, just like one person giving advice to another.

The power of a prophetic word is contained in what is actually being said, and not so much in the way it is being said. A prophecy in KJV English is no more a prophecy than one spoken in normal everyday English, in our case, colloquial New Zealand English. It is interesting that Paul did not describe himself as a eloquent speaker using perfect grammar, and yet what he did say demonstrated the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is also very interesting that John's gospel is written in the most simple form of Koini Greek (so simple that folk learning New Testament Greek are encouraged to work with John's Gospel first). Matthew and Luke's Greek was more involved and complicated. Maybe it was because John was a relatively uneducated fisherman before he became an Apostle, while Matthew the tax collector and Luke the physician were better educated.

In actual fact, "Jesus loves you" when spoken prophetically to a person at the right time can be one of the most powerful prophecies one can receive.

Actually I'm going to back up here a moment Oscarr.

The Holy Spirit reminded me of an encouragement type prophecy that was given to me. The guy was visiting from another church out of state or something, and GOD used him to confirm things that The Holy Spirit had showed me all week prior. It was quite accurate.

After that I had to look up the greek meanings of the words 1Cor 14:3,...

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

- Original: παράκλησις
- Transliteration: Paraklesis
- Phonetic: par-ak'-lay-sis
- Definition:
1. a calling near, summons, (esp. for help)
2. importation, supplication, entreaty
3. exhortation, admonition, encouragement
4. consolation, comfort, solace; that which affords comfort or refreshment
a. thus of the messianic salvation (so the Rabbis call the messiah the consoler, the comforter)
5. persuasive discourse, stirring address
a. instructive, admonitory, conciliatory, powerful hortatory discourse

I was used to the corporate prophesying by The Holy Spirit, but up to that point had refused any personal "words" from anyone. In fact, The Lord had to sort of trick me into receiving it, otherwise I wouldn't have.

From your posts it seems like you are trying to use the gift in this particular fashion, and if so, then it would seem proper given what The Holy Spirit showed me.
 
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Hawkins

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Now that we have a a bit of a go at prophets, what about apostles? If one of the prominent qualification for an apostle is regular signs wonders, if they are absent, is the apostle a real one, or just a word-based pretender?

It's not difficult at all. An apostle is a witness (more likely an eyewitness) of Jesus. A prophet knows how to get a message from God with no ambiguity. "God puts words to the mouth of a prophet" to a certain extent means the prophet can know without ambiguity about a message to be delivered. That's why they can be very much sure that the message is from God. Paul may set a typical example. Paul doesn't prophesy publicly (correct me if I am wrong). He however knows for sure that his messages are from Jesus.

A prophecy on the other hand, is more of a side product. It is because humans don't have the ability to tell a future. So if God told a prophet about a future and that future comes to pass, the prophet thus knows for sure that whatever message given is from God. Miracles to prophets may work in a similar fashion. Humans can't break our own physics laws. If God confirms His own message by performing a miracle in front of a prophet, the prophet thus knows that the message is from God.

Acts 14:3 (NIV2011)
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.
 
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Actually I'm going to back up here a moment Oscarr.

The Holy Spirit reminded me of an encouragement type prophecy that was given to me. The guy was visiting from another church out of state or something, and GOD used him to confirm things that The Holy Spirit had showed me all week prior. It was quite accurate.

After that I had to look up the greek meanings of the words 1Cor 14:3,...

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

- Original: παράκλησις
- Transliteration: Paraklesis
- Phonetic: par-ak'-lay-sis
- Definition:
1. a calling near, summons, (esp. for help)
2. importation, supplication, entreaty
3. exhortation, admonition, encouragement
4. consolation, comfort, solace; that which affords comfort or refreshment
a. thus of the messianic salvation (so the Rabbis call the messiah the consoler, the comforter)
5. persuasive discourse, stirring address
a. instructive, admonitory, conciliatory, powerful hortatory discourse

I was used to the corporate prophesying by The Holy Spirit, but up to that point had refused any personal "words" from anyone. In fact, The Lord had to sort of trick me into receiving it, otherwise I wouldn't have.

From your posts it seems like you are trying to use the gift in this particular fashion, and if so, then it would seem proper given what The Holy Spirit showed me.
Absolutely. It is a bit of a relief to me that we are not in conflict about it. When I give a prophetic word to someone (only on request, and not repeated requests from the same person) I never give guidance, because that is the role of the person's indwelling Holy Spirit, and I am not prepared to usurp His role in exclusively guiding that person. But confirmation for guidance already given is okay. Also, I never predict fame or wealth, because that would give a false expectation that the Holy Spirit would never promise.
 
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It's not difficult at all. An apostle is a witness (more likely an eyewitness) of Jesus. A prophet knows how to get a message from God with no ambiguity. "God puts words to the mouth of a prophet" to a certain extent means the prophet can know without ambiguity about a message to be delivered. That's why they can be very much sure that the message is from God. Paul may set a typical example. Paul doesn't prophesy publicly (correct me if I am wrong). He however knows for sure that his messages are from Jesus.
What he got directly for Jesus is written in his New Testament letters. But what about all the prophecies that he gave as part of his ministry in the churches he founded and visited? If he advocated prophecy as the best gift in the church, it stands to reason that he would have prophesied himself. And yet, none of these prophecies were every recorded and made part of the New Testament. Does that mean that his inspired letters were different than the prophecies he gave in the churches?

Also, there were prophets in the early church. If their words were directly from Jesus (dictated). why were they not written down and added to the New Testament as, for example, "The Book of Agabus" containing all his prophecies? Does this mean that the prophecies of New Testament prophets were not the same as those of Old Testament prophets (whose prophecies were recorded as Scripture)?

A prophecy on the other hand, is more of a side product. It is because humans don't have the ability to tell a future. So if God told a prophet about a future and that future comes to pass, the prophet thus knows for sure that whatever message given is from God. Miracles to prophets may work in a similar fashion. Humans can't break our own physics laws. If God confirms His own message by performing a miracle in front of a prophet, the prophet thus knows that the message is from God.
But was it the role of the New Testament prophet to tell the future? I know that Agabus did, but that was only two recorded examples. Paul was prophetic in 1 and 2 Thessalonians when he predicted the Second Coming of Christ, but he was an Apostle, not a prophet. We actually don't have the recorded prophecies of any other New Testament prophets, so we don't really know what the prophesied.

Acts 14:3 (NIV2011)
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.
This reference doesn't seem to mention prophets or prophecy. It says that the preaching of Paul and Barnabas was confirmed with signs and wonders. But no mention of the prophecy of prophets confirmed in the same way. You might need to find a more accurate Scriptural reference to support your opinion.
 
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What he got directly for Jesus is written in his New Testament letters. But what about all the prophecies that he gave as part of his ministry in the churches he founded and visited? If he advocated prophecy as the best gift in the church, it stands to reason that he would have prophesied himself. And yet, none of these prophecies were every recorded and made part of the New Testament. Does that mean that his inspired letters were different than the prophecies he gave in the churches?

Also, there were prophets in the early church. If their words were directly from Jesus (dictated). why were they not written down and added to the New Testament as, for example, "The Book of Agabus" containing all his prophecies? Does this mean that the prophecies of New Testament prophets were not the same as those of Old Testament prophets (whose prophecies were recorded as Scripture)?

Has GOD changed Oscarr?

Could GOD raise up a prophet nowadays for that purpose?
 
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Has GOD changed Oscarr?

Could GOD raise up a prophet nowadays for that purpose?
He could, because the Scripture does say that God has placed prophets in the church. And Agabus' example shows that a New Testament prophet can predict the future, especially if the Holy Spirit tells him what God has planned for the future. But as you have implied, predictive prophecy isn't guess work, it has to come with full assurance from the Holy Spirit. We have prophets (so called) giving predictive prophecies "in faith", hoping or presuming they might come to pass; for example, the Trump prophecies which didn't come to pass because God didn't plan it that way (I don't are what the anti-Biden fellows are spouting about the election being rigged).
 
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ARBITER01

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He could, because the Scripture does say that God has placed prophets in the church. And Agabus' example shows that a New Testament prophet can predict the future, especially if the Holy Spirit tells him what God has planned for the future. But as you have implied, predictive prophecy isn't guess work, it has to come with full assurance from the Holy Spirit. We have prophets (so called) giving predictive prophecies "in faith", hoping or presuming they might come to pass; for example, the Trump prophecies which didn't come to pass because God didn't plan it that way (I don't are what the anti-Biden fellows are spouting about the election being rigged).

Correct.

I view those folks speaking such things to be frauds. True prophets are concerned about the things of GOD, not the things of the world.
 
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There is also a growing scholarship view that Jesus was not a real historical person, that Paul did not exist, God is not a real person, the virgin birth didn't happen, and there was no resurrection. So, one must pick the meat from the bones with any scholarship view.
Agreed
 
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