Do These Verses Disprove Original Sin?

Dale

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You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20: 5-6 NIV

This verse implies that God’s punishment will never extend beyond the third or fourth generation. How can this be reconciled with the notion that the entire human race is still being punished for the sins of Eve and Adam? I don’t see how it fits.

These verses are not only in the same chapter as the Ten Commandments, they are part of the Ten Commandments. This isn’t taken from an obscure part of the Bible.

The same words are repeated later, when the Ten Commandments are repeated in Deuteronomy chapter five.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10 NIV

The fifth chapter of Deuteronomy repeats the Ten Commandments, and statement that God’s punishment will not last beyond the fourth generation is repeated without change. The same thought appears again in Numbers.

‘The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving
sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty
unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers
to the third and fourth generation.’
Numbers 14:18 NIV

In the first books of the Bible there is no concept of God punishing or rejecting all people forever for the sins of the first woman and the first man. It looks like Original Sin is something the theologians made up later. It doesn’t seem to be in the first books of the Bible, which is where we would expect to find it.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I don't know what the formal doctrine of Original Sin states. But I feel that when direct communion with God was broken in the garden of Eden sin gained power. For without obedience, and connection to God we can not be righteous. It is only through reigniting that connection that we gain a measure of power over sin.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

So basically we are sin prone, the flesh has dominance. But by joining and partnering with Christ we gain the power to sin less.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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In the first books of the Bible there is no concept of God punishing or rejecting all people forever for the sins of the first woman and the first man. It looks like Original Sin is something the theologians made up later. It doesn’t seem to be in the first books of the Bible, which is where we would expect to find it.

If the above is the definition of original sin then, no, it is not a true doctrine. People are not punished for the sin of Adam and Eve, we are punished for our own acceptance:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Or rejection of God.

2Th 2:10-12 Lost people will be fooled by his evil deeds. They could be saved, but they will refuse to love the truth and accept it. So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie. All of them will be punished, because they would rather do evil than believe the truth.

It is man's choice to either love and obey the truth (Jesus), or reject it (Him), that determines man's fate.
 
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com7fy8

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This verse implies that God’s punishment will never extend beyond the third or fourth generation. How can this be reconciled with the notion that the entire human race is still being punished for the sins of Eve and Adam? I don’t see how it fits.
Well, our Apostle Paul says >

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned---" (Romans 5:12)

My opinion > sin is a spiritual condition of a person's character. It involves being effected by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2. This evil spirit of Satan can spread from parents to their children, through conception.

And this spirit is selfish > being love-dead . . . not in the love which is God's love. And so is the death which is in all who have not trusted in Jesus.

This is not a punishment, but a consequence . . . the effect of Satan's spirit deadening people. And all have sinned > all have done selfish things in the effect of this selfish spirit which degrades people from how we can share as family with God in His own beautiful and kind and sweet and tender love which has almighty power to protect us from nasty and negative and dictatorial emotions and mental chaos and confusion. Many are in the deadness which makes them weak to give in to such stuff. It is a consequence of character, not really a punishment.
 
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BobRyan

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This verse implies that God’s punishment will never extend beyond the third or fourth generation. How can this be reconciled with the notion that the entire human race is still being punished for the sins of Eve and Adam? I don’t see how it fits. .

1. the world is not being "punished" for Eve's sin.
2. A man gets drunk and driving his family to a birthday party gets them into a wreck. The Police come and arrest the man for drunk driving. The family members have cuts and bruises, wounds. But are they "being punished" for the sin of the father of that family? That is not the right way to view it.

Read Ezek 18 - God does not punish the sin of the father on the children. Rather the influence of a sinful father extends to the children.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

Ezek 18:
9 if he walks in My statutes and keeps My ordinances so as to deal faithfully—he is righteous and will certainly live,” declares the Lord God.

10 “However, he may father a violent son who sheds blood, and does any one of these things to a brother 11 (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but raises his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, 13 lends money at interest and takes interest; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he shall certainly be put to death; his blood will be on himself.

14 “Now behold, he has fathered a son who saw all his father’s sins which he committed, but he has seen them and does not do likewise. 15 He does not eat at the mountain shrines or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; he has not defiled his neighbor’s wife, 16 nor oppressed anyone, nor retained a pledge, nor committed robbery; instead, he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing, 17 he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take any kind of interest on loans, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s guilt, he will certainly live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his guilt.

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21 “But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and does according to all the abominations that the wicked person does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness, commits injustice and dies because of it, for his injustice which he has committed he dies. 27 But when a wicked person turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 Since he understood and turned away from all his offenses which he had committed, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 29 But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”
 
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You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20: 5-6 NIV

This verse implies that God’s punishment will never extend beyond the third or fourth generation. How can this be reconciled with the notion that the entire human race is still being punished for the sins of Eve and Adam? I don’t see how it fits.

These verses are not only in the same chapter as the Ten Commandments, they are part of the Ten Commandments. This isn’t taken from an obscure part of the Bible.

The same words are repeated later, when the Ten Commandments are repeated in Deuteronomy chapter five.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10 NIV

The fifth chapter of Deuteronomy repeats the Ten Commandments, and statement that God’s punishment will not last beyond the fourth generation is repeated without change. The same thought appears again in Numbers.

‘The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving
sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty
unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers
to the third and fourth generation.’
Numbers 14:18 NIV

In the first books of the Bible there is no concept of God punishing or rejecting all people forever for the sins of the first woman and the first man. It looks like Original Sin is something the theologians made up later. It doesn’t seem to be in the first books of the Bible, which is where we would expect to find it.

I think there is a difference between Original Sin vs. breaking certain commands of God with consequences that can run into the various generations of one's offspring (For example: If one is a drunk, they can potentially spread the curse of their addiction to their offspring). For the breaking of God's moral commands (like murder, theft, idolatry, etc.) is a far cry from the difference of Adam's one time sin separating the human race from God with them being inclined to sin and with their bodies stained by the sin of Adam.

For in Original Sin: The Bible says sin (or transgression of the Law) from Adam passed down upon all men so that all have sinned. Men are born into sin via the male seed. This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin (i.e. by the seed of a woman and not of the seed of the male). Babies were deserving of death by Adam's sin, but Jesus Christ reversed the curse of Adam. Fortunately, God is aware of the future with pinpoint precision (without having to be in the future) and He could declare that Jesus was the Promised Messiah and that His sacrifice was a guarantee for the salvation of men (long before Christ was physically sacrificed). For he is the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world. So while a baby's body is condemned to death by Adam's sin, their soul is saved by Jesus Christ and they will one day be resurrected physically by the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In fact, the best way to comprehend Original Sin is to properly understand the doctrine of “Federal Headship.” One of the top passages that helps us to grasp "Federal Headship" is Hebrews 7:8-10. It says,

8 "Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives.
9 We can say that through Abraham even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes,
10 for he was yet in the body of his father when Melchizedek met him." (Hebrews 7:8-10) (New Heart English Bible).​

Levi paid tithes in Abraham even before Levi was born. This is Federal Headship.

Three reasons why Federal Headship is true.

#1. The Virgin Birth. While it is true that a good reason Jesus was born of only a woman so that God the Father can be exclusively his true father, but this is not the only reason. When Eve sinned, nothing happened. It was only when Adam sinned when both of their eyes were opened to the after effects of sin. So sin is passed down by the male seed. This is one of the reasons why Jesus was born of a virgin. Hebrews 7:26 says, "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

#2. The moment we accept Christ as our Savior (for real) we are forgiven of our past sins and we are associating with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Jesus took on the sins of the entire world in his body in the Garden of Gethsemane from the cup that the Father gave to Him. Jesus was then later wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripes (whip marks) we are healed. Jesus was literally taking our place. Romans 3:25 says "God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,"; This is the blood or sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice is applied to us when we become born again spiritually just as Adam's sin was once applied to us when we were born into this world by the flesh of Adam. 1 John 1:7 talks about our continued salvation in Christ. If we walk in the light [i.e. keep God's commandments abiding in God the Father] as He [Christ] is in the light [God the Father], we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (cf. John 14:23). So Christ's sacrifice is applied to our lives when we repent of our sins and we then obey Him.

#3. If we are truly 100% innocent at birth, then there would have been no need for a Savior. God could have just taken our lives before we reached the age of accountability before we could sin in God's eyes.​

Romans 5:12 is probably the best verse in defending Original Sin. The word "for" (KJB) can be translated as the word "in" within Romans 5:12.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one human being, and death through sin, and in that way death spread to all humans, in that all sinned" (Romans 5:12) (NTE).​

1. Sin came into the world through one human being.
2. Death came through sin.
3. In this way death (sin) spread to all humans.
4. In that all sinned (in the fact that sin (death) spread to all humans by the fact that sin came into the world by one man, Adam).

It's why God sent a Savior.

For we see this same Greek word translated as the word "in" (instead of as "for) within other parts of the Bible:

G1909 - epi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

This fits the context because verse 19 says,

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:19).

"Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18).

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22).​

When we come to Jesus, we have the promise that we will one day have a new resurrected body that will live forever. The opposite is true when we were born into this world with a body that is condemned by death because of the sin of Adam.

John 3:6 - “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”
  • 1 John 2:16 - "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
  • Genesis 8:21 - The Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
  • Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
  • Job 5:7 - Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.
  • Proverbs 22:15 - "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child;"
  • Job 15:14-16 - "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"
  • Romans 7:24 - "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
  • Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
  • Matthew 26:41 - "...The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
  • Ephesians 2:2-3 - "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:3-4 says we are sinners by nature because it says by nature we were children of wrath and we were once called the "children of disobedience." This means that while it is true that sin is the breaking of the Law (1 Jhn 3:4), sin is not just something we do alone, it is something in who a person is (i.e. a sinner). So while Adam and Eve were originally formed by God to be morally good, they had free will to sin and their failure to obey God had led their descendants to be born with a sinful nature (whereby their hearts would be desperately wicked). This is why all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Because if we were born 100% innocent, then by sheer mathematical probability, at least one person in the human history would have not sinned (Not counting Jesus Christ of course because He is holy and separate from sinners - See Hebrews 7:26).

We are born in the image of Adam (who is earthy).

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

The second man is the Lord from heaven and we (believers) are to bear the image of the heavenly. This means we were not originally born to be spiritual or to be heavenly. It's why we need to be born again spiritually by Jesus Christ (the second man or the last Adam). Granted, this does not mean babies are not saved. Babies are simply unaware of knowing how to sin. Sin is not imputed where there is no Law (Romans 5:13). Babies do not know about any law, so sin cannot be imputed to them. So while babies do carry the sin of Adam (or the sin nature of Adam), they have not put forth any kind of sin or evil works to be judged. But yet, they do carry the sin of Adam within them (Which proves itself true by the fact they will sin later when they grow up). Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. So this very act by Jesus saves babies. If Jesus did not go to the cross, not even babies would have been saved. All of humanity would have been condemned. For Jesus Christ is our Savior; It is not our own own innocence or goodness alone that saves us!

Important Note:

While doing good is a part of God's Kingdom (i.e. Sanctification by the Holy Spirit), it is good deeds that the Lord does through the believer after they come to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith (seeking His forgiveness over their sin with Him). For we are first saved by God's grace and the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and we continue in God's plan of salvation by walking in the Spirit and putting away the misdeeds of the body (See: Romans 8:13, and Galatians 5:16). But make no mistake, man is not born into being completely innocent. The stain of Adam's sin is definitely upon his offspring. Just look at the world around you.
 
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fhansen

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You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20: 5-6 NIV

This verse implies that God’s punishment will never extend beyond the third or fourth generation. How can this be reconciled with the notion that the entire human race is still being punished for the sins of Eve and Adam? I don’t see how it fits.

These verses are not only in the same chapter as the Ten Commandments, they are part of the Ten Commandments. This isn’t taken from an obscure part of the Bible.

The same words are repeated later, when the Ten Commandments are repeated in Deuteronomy chapter five.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10 NIV

The fifth chapter of Deuteronomy repeats the Ten Commandments, and statement that God’s punishment will not last beyond the fourth generation is repeated without change. The same thought appears again in Numbers.

‘The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving
sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty
unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers
to the third and fourth generation.’
Numbers 14:18 NIV

In the first books of the Bible there is no concept of God punishing or rejecting all people forever for the sins of the first woman and the first man. It looks like Original Sin is something the theologians made up later. It doesn’t seem to be in the first books of the Bible, which is where we would expect to find it.
The chief aspect of the state known as original sin is spiritual separation from God, to no longer know Him, to be dead to God. This is sometimes referred to as the “death of the soul”. Man was made for communion with God; we’re lost, sick, dead, and lacking full moral integrity without Him. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5.

Adam had thought otherwise, and according to the teaching, all humans fell with him. And, sure enough, all inevitably sin now, even though we were never created to sin. All have an over abundance of pride and self righteousness, certainly not “God-righteousness”. All are born without a direct and intimate knowledge of God. And this is a gross anomaly in creation, an injustice, a disorder, which Jesus came to rectify.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

We only need to read/watch/hear the news-or even just look at ourselves-to know that something is off, and not as it "should be" in our world.
 
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disciple Clint

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You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20: 5-6 NIV

This verse implies that God’s punishment will never extend beyond the third or fourth generation. How can this be reconciled with the notion that the entire human race is still being punished for the sins of Eve and Adam? I don’t see how it fits.

These verses are not only in the same chapter as the Ten Commandments, they are part of the Ten Commandments. This isn’t taken from an obscure part of the Bible.

The same words are repeated later, when the Ten Commandments are repeated in Deuteronomy chapter five.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10 NIV

The fifth chapter of Deuteronomy repeats the Ten Commandments, and statement that God’s punishment will not last beyond the fourth generation is repeated without change. The same thought appears again in Numbers.

‘The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving
sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty
unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers
to the third and fourth generation.’
Numbers 14:18 NIV

In the first books of the Bible there is no concept of God punishing or rejecting all people forever for the sins of the first woman and the first man. It looks like Original Sin is something the theologians made up later. It doesn’t seem to be in the first books of the Bible, which is where we would expect to find it.
The death of Jesus paid for our sins, God is not going to punish those who accept Jesus.
 
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Butterball1

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You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20: 5-6 NIV

"of those who hate Me" shows the children were continuing in sin as their fathers (see Acts of the Apostles 7:51) therefore each person is condemned for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20). Therefore sin is not just an idea or substance that is UNconditionally passed from person to person. Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4 for sin to even exist and a person be a sinner requires there be a law and a person must transgress that law.
Children can suffer the consequence of their parent's sin but children never inherit sin or guilt of sin from their parents. We all physically die as a consequence of Adam's sinning but none of us physically (or spiritually) die because we inherit his sin or the guilt of his sin. Hence infants physically die as a consequence of Adam sinning not because they inherited sin/guilt from Adam. A drunk driver can crash into another vehicle, the victims suffer as a consequence of the drunk driver's sin but they do not inherit the drunk driver's sin or guilt of his sin.

As far as "3rd and 4th generation" versus "thousand generations", it is my opinion these should not be taken strickly literal but the contrast is to show God's mercy and grace is of longer persistence (1000 generations) compared to the shorter persistence of God's punishment (3 or 4 generations). God's punishment upon the wicked, why stop after the 4th generation? God's judgement persists as long as wickedness persists even if for 5 or 50 generations.


If man were born with original sin/sin nature/total depravity then that puts God in the position to UNJUSTLY condemn man for a natural inability man was born with against his will. It would be like condemning a man born without legs for not walking. But since man is born innocent, without a nature causing him to sin against his will but becomes a sinner for freely choosing to sin, then God can JUSTLY hold men accountable for those moral choices men make of their own free will. Original sin makes man a passive, innocent victim of sin rather than the guilty, willful perpertator of sin that he is.
 
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Davy

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You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20: 5-6 NIV

This verse implies that God’s punishment will never extend beyond the third or fourth generation. How can this be reconciled with the notion that the entire human race is still being punished for the sins of Eve and Adam? I don’t see how it fits.
....

The actual idea is punishment to the children that continue in the sin...

And the sin there is NOT loving God and NOT keeping His commandments.
 
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You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20: 5-6 NIV

This verse implies that God’s punishment will never extend beyond the third or fourth generation. How can this be reconciled with the notion that the entire human race is still being punished for the sins of Eve and Adam? I don’t see how it fits.

These verses are not only in the same chapter as the Ten Commandments, they are part of the Ten Commandments. This isn’t taken from an obscure part of the Bible.

The same words are repeated later, when the Ten Commandments are repeated in Deuteronomy chapter five.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them [idols]; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children
for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of
those who hate me,
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10 NIV

The fifth chapter of Deuteronomy repeats the Ten Commandments, and statement that God’s punishment will not last beyond the fourth generation is repeated without change. The same thought appears again in Numbers.

‘The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving
sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty
unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the fathers
to the third and fourth generation.’
Numbers 14:18 NIV

In the first books of the Bible there is no concept of God punishing or rejecting all people forever for the sins of the first woman and the first man. It looks like Original Sin is something the theologians made up later. It doesn’t seem to be in the first books of the Bible, which is where we would expect to find it.

The original sin .... explains how sin was introduced into the world and thereby causing death. Because of this we have a "sin nature" (inherited) ... that is ... we have a natural tendency more towards sinning than not.

Romans 5:12

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all people, because all sinned.

Each are accountable for their own sin. Adam & Eve for theirs and you, me and everyone else for theirs.

Romans 14:12
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We aren't being punished Adam and Eve's sin ... however ... we experience the consequences of it .... whether committed by us and/or by others.
 
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bling

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The original sin .... explains how sin was introduced into the world and thereby causing death. Because of this we have a "sin nature" (inherited) ... that is ... we have a natural tendency more towards sinning than not.
I am not fully in agreement with you here. Original sin shows me that the very best all humans (raised /programmed to adult hood by God), given only one way to sin, would sin before fulfilling their earthly objective. I do not read that the human “nature” changed (seeing that Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had), but knowledge of Good and Evil was given providing a ton more ways to sin (but is knowledge bad?). Death came about, but is death really a “punishment”, Paul did not look upon death as a punishment, so why should we? The fact that we all will die, unless Christ comes before we die, help or hurt us in fulfilling our earthly objective?
 
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bling

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That notion is not what original sin is.
How do you explain original sin?
I just got through saying:
I am not fully in agreement with you here. Original sin shows me that the very best all humans (raised /programmed to adult hood by God), given only one way to sin, would sin before fulfilling their earthly objective. I do not read that the human “nature” changed (seeing that Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had), but knowledge of Good and Evil was given providing a ton more ways to sin (but is knowledge bad?). Death came about, but is death really a “punishment”, Paul did not look upon death as a punishment, so why should we? The fact that we all will die, unless Christ comes before we die, help or hurt us in fulfilling our earthly objective?
 
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chilehed

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bling

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eleos1954

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I am not fully in agreement with you here. Original sin shows me that the very best all humans (raised /programmed to adult hood by God), given only one way to sin, would sin before fulfilling their earthly objective. I do not read that the human “nature” changed (seeing that Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had), but knowledge of Good and Evil was given providing a ton more ways to sin (but is knowledge bad?). Death came about, but is death really a “punishment”, Paul did not look upon death as a punishment, so why should we? The fact that we all will die, unless Christ comes before we die, help or hurt us in fulfilling our earthly objective?

I am Talking about eternal death (2nd death is for eternity) ..... ie .... cease to exist for eternity. We die the "earthly death" (described biblically as sleep) .... and when Jesus returns the 1st resurrection (of the saved) happens. Later the 2nd resurrection happens (of the lost)

At earthly death, all consciousness ends. The dead person does not know anything and does not do anything (Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10). Jesus and the apostles (as well as writers in the Old Testament) frequently referred to death as sleep (e.g., Matt. 9:24; Mark 5:39; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 2 Peter 3:4; Dan. 12:2; Job 14:10-12; Ps. 13:3). The image of sleep emphasizes that earthly death is not the end, but is rather an unconscious state prior to the resurrection(s) (note in this regard the resurrection of Lazarus in John 11:11-14, 23-25, 43).

The punishment of the unrepentant is called the second death: After the final judgment the unrepentant receive their punishment. This punishment is called the second death. “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14, 15; see also 21:8). The Bible also uses words such as “perishing” and “destruction” in speaking of the ultimate fate of the unrepentant (e.g., 
2 Peter 3:7, 9; John 3:16; Heb. 10:28; Mal. 4:1). These descriptions confirm that the second death refers to annihilation (or extinction) of the unrepentant, rather than a continual and eternal conscious torment.

To cease to exist for eternity is one's punishment ... they die the second death.
 
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Dale

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I think there is a difference between Original Sin vs. breaking certain commands of God with consequences that can run into the various generations of one's offspring (For example: If one is a drunk, they can potentially spread the curse of their addiction to their offspring). For the breaking of God's moral commands (like murder, theft, idolatry, etc.) is a far cry from the difference of Adam's one time sin separating the human race from God with them being inclined to sin and with their bodies stained by the sin of Adam.

For in Original Sin: The Bible says sin (or transgression of the Law) from Adam passed down upon all men so that all have sinned. Men are born into sin via the male seed. This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin (i.e. by the seed of a woman and not of the seed of the male). Babies were deserving of death by Adam's sin, but Jesus Christ reversed the curse of Adam. Fortunately, God is aware of the future with pinpoint precision (without having to be in the future) and He could declare that Jesus was the Promised Messiah and that His sacrifice was a guarantee for the salvation of men (long before Christ was physically sacrificed). For he is the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world. So while a baby's body is condemned to death by Adam's sin, their soul is saved by Jesus Christ and they will one day be resurrected physically by the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In fact, the best way to comprehend Original Sin is to properly understand the doctrine of “Federal Headship.” One of the top passages that helps us to grasp "Federal Headship" is Hebrews 7:8-10. It says,

8 "Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives.
9 We can say that through Abraham even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes,
10 for he was yet in the body of his father when Melchizedek met him." (Hebrews 7:8-10) (New Heart English Bible).​

Levi paid tithes in Abraham even before Levi was born. This is Federal Headship.

Three reasons why Federal Headship is true.

#1. The Virgin Birth. While it is true that a good reason Jesus was born of only a woman so that God the Father can be exclusively his true father, but this is not the only reason. When Eve sinned, nothing happened. It was only when Adam sinned when both of their eyes were opened to the after effects of sin. So sin is passed down by the male seed. This is one of the reasons why Jesus was born of a virgin. Hebrews 7:26 says, "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

#2. The moment we accept Christ as our Savior (for real) we are forgiven of our past sins and we are associating with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Jesus took on the sins of the entire world in his body in the Garden of Gethsemane from the cup that the Father gave to Him. Jesus was then later wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripes (whip marks) we are healed. Jesus was literally taking our place. Romans 3:25 says "God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,"; This is the blood or sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice is applied to us when we become born again spiritually just as Adam's sin was once applied to us when we were born into this world by the flesh of Adam. 1 John 1:7 talks about our continued salvation in Christ. If we walk in the light [i.e. keep God's commandments abiding in God the Father] as He [Christ] is in the light [God the Father], we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (cf. John 14:23). So Christ's sacrifice is applied to our lives when we repent of our sins and we then obey Him.

#3. If we are truly 100% innocent at birth, then there would have been no need for a Savior. God could have just taken our lives before we reached the age of accountability before we could sin in God's eyes.​

Romans 5:12 is probably the best verse in defending Original Sin. The word "for" (KJB) can be translated as the word "in" within Romans 5:12.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one human being, and death through sin, and in that way death spread to all humans, in that all sinned" (Romans 5:12) (NTE).​

1. Sin came into the world through one human being.
2. Death came through sin.
3. In this way death (sin) spread to all humans.
4. In that all sinned (in the fact that sin (death) spread to all humans by the fact that sin came into the world by one man, Adam).

It's why God sent a Savior.

For we see this same Greek word translated as the word "in" (instead of as "for) within other parts of the Bible:

G1909 - epi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

This fits the context because verse 19 says,

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:19).

"Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18).

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22).​

When we come to Jesus, we have the promise that we will one day have a new resurrected body that will live forever. The opposite is true when we were born into this world with a body that is condemned by death because of the sin of Adam.

John 3:6 - “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”
  • 1 John 2:16 - "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
  • Genesis 8:21 - The Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
  • Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
  • Job 5:7 - Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.
  • Proverbs 22:15 - "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child;"
  • Job 15:14-16 - "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"
  • Romans 7:24 - "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
  • Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
  • Matthew 26:41 - "...The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
  • Ephesians 2:2-3 - "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:3-4 says we are sinners by nature because it says by nature we were children of wrath and we were once called the "children of disobedience." This means that while it is true that sin is the breaking of the Law (1 Jhn 3:4), sin is not just something we do alone, it is something in who a person is (i.e. a sinner). So while Adam and Eve were originally formed by God to be morally good, they had free will to sin and their failure to obey God had led their descendants to be born with a sinful nature (whereby their hearts would be desperately wicked). This is why all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Because if we were born 100% innocent, then by sheer mathematical probability, at least one person in the human history would have not sinned (Not counting Jesus Christ of course because He is holy and separate from sinners - See Hebrews 7:26).

We are born in the image of Adam (who is earthy).

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

The second man is the Lord from heaven and we (believers) are to bear the image of the heavenly. This means we were not originally born to be spiritual or to be heavenly. It's why we need to be born again spiritually by Jesus Christ (the second man or the last Adam). Granted, this does not mean babies are not saved. Babies are simply unaware of knowing how to sin. Sin is not imputed where there is no Law (Romans 5:13). Babies do not know about any law, so sin cannot be imputed to them. So while babies do carry the sin of Adam (or the sin nature of Adam), they have not put forth any kind of sin or evil works to be judged. But yet, they do carry the sin of Adam within them (Which proves itself true by the fact they will sin later when they grow up). Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. So this very act by Jesus saves babies. If Jesus did not go to the cross, not even babies would have been saved. All of humanity would have been condemned. For Jesus Christ is our Savior; It is not our own own innocence or goodness alone that saves us!

Important Note:

While doing good is a part of God's Kingdom (i.e. Sanctification by the Holy Spirit), it is good deeds that the Lord does through the believer after they come to the Lord Jesus Christ by faith (seeking His forgiveness over their sin with Him). For we are first saved by God's grace and the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and we continue in God's plan of salvation by walking in the Spirit and putting away the misdeeds of the body (See: Romans 8:13, and Galatians 5:16). But make no mistake, man is not born into being completely innocent. The stain of Adam's sin is definitely upon his offspring. Just look at the world around you.



Bible Highlighter: “Three reasons why Federal Headship is true.”

If Federal Headship is a religious doctrine, I’ve never heard of it. What church believes this?



Bible Highlighter: “This is why Jesus had to be born via a virgin (i.e. by the seed of a woman and not of the seed of the male). Babies were deserving of death by Adam's sin, but Jesus Christ reversed the curse of Adam.”

It is odd that in Genesis, Adam and Eve sin together, and Eve actually sinned first. Yet in theology we hear only about inheriting the sin of Adam. This could only make sense from a legalistic point of view, arguing from the Jewish law, which sets up a completely male-dominated society. I don’t see how it can make sense to us.

There is no doubt that physical heredity comes from both mother and father. In that light, I don’t see how being born of a woman without being conceived of a man would have anything to do with transmission of original sin.
 
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Dale

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I don't know what the formal doctrine of Original Sin states. But I feel that when direct communion with God was broken in the garden of Eden sin gained power. For without obedience, and connection to God we can not be righteous. It is only through reigniting that connection that we gain a measure of power over sin.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

So basically we are sin prone, the flesh has dominance. But by joining and partnering with Christ we gain the power to sin less.

That notion is not what original sin is.



I didn’t realize that the definition of original sin was going to be a problem.

I’ll start with the most obvious sources.

The Sage

Original Sin: A sin said to be inherited by all descendants of Adam.

Also: Adam and Eve committed the original sin when they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.



Dictionary.com

Original Sin : Theology

a. A depravity, or tendency to evil, held to be innate in humankind and transmitted from Adam to all humans in consequence of his sin.

b. Inclination to evil, inherent in human nature.

Roman Catholic Theology: The privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam.
 
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