Warden_of_the_Storm

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Sterile waters <> astrobiology

Was Ptolemyqualified to say what science is?

How do you know that the waters are sterile? And also, just by the fact that there is water, a fundamental life support on Earth, means that there is the possibility of life in those waters. But we won't know until we look.

And for Ptolemy... why does that matter? I mean, unless you're trying to say that you're on the same level as Ptolemy or something else, I don't see how an ancient Roman scholar is of relevance.
 
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mindlight

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How do you know that the waters are sterile? And also, just by the fact that there is water, a fundamental life support on Earth, means that there is the possibility of life in those waters. But we won't know until we look.

And for Ptolemy... why does that matter? I mean, unless you're trying to say that you're on the same level as Ptolemy or something else, I don't see how an ancient Roman scholar is of relevance.

I am actually quite keen on space exploration. I just think it should be realistic about what we find and should serve a human purpose. Loading spacecraft with life experiments when the existence of ET life in our solar system remains incredible is really due to scientific theories of our origins being projected onto the exploration activity. The mainstream view is that life spontaneously emerges so we must look for it and expect to find it. That assumption adds unnecessary costs. Human space flight should be the focus of space exploration and using space to serve human purposes not looking for something that is not there to justify models that are in effect just guesses. I notice that none of the scientists here are defending abiogenesis as anything more than a theoretical possibility held to tentatively. But in effect, the complete lack of evidence for it is a major challenge to naturalistic and probabilistic models built on guesses and incomplete evidence trails.
 
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mindlight

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How do you know that the waters are sterile? And also, just by the fact that there is water, a fundamental life support on Earth, means that there is the possibility of life in those waters. But we won't know until we look.

And for Ptolemy... why does that matter? I mean, unless you're trying to say that you're on the same level as Ptolemy or something else, I don't see how an ancient Roman scholar is of relevance.

I would like to send a human crew to check that out and indeed turn humankind into a spacefaring civilization bringing life to the barren wastelands of empty space.

Ptolemy was the mainstream scientist on which scientists based their views until Copernicus and Gallileo overthrew him. In the wake of the Black Death, the scientific understanding of the causation of the plague was a planetary alignment. Medical science-based a lot of its conclusions on Galen. Take a historical perspective on science and you can see that again and again they dismiss their opponents in terms of ignorance and nonmembership. However, all of these guys would be regarded as fools by modern scientists.

Similarly, scientists that speculate on an extraterrestrial origin of life today do so on the basis of abiogenesis which is a tentative and unproven guess, and on an equation whose blanks can be filled in according to personal preference as there are no hard facts to support that process.

On this matter, however many degrees you possess from whichever university and however many years of experience of doing science, it matters little - this is not something you can demonstrate with anything approaching scientific methodology. If that is not so share the link.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I am actually quite keen on space exploration. I just think it should be realistic about what we find and should serve a human purpose. Loading spacecraft with life experiments when the existence of ET life in our solar system remains incredible is really due to scientific theories of our origins being projected onto the exploration activity. The mainstream view is that life spontaneously emerges so we must look for it and expect to find it. That assumption adds unnecessary costs. Human space flight should be the focus of space exploration and using space to serve human purposes not looking for something that is not there to justify models that are in effect just guesses. I notice that none of the scientists here are defending abiogenesis as anything more than a theoretical possibility held to tentatively. But in effect, the complete lack of evidence for it is a major challenge to naturalistic and probabilistic models built on guesses and incomplete evidence trails.

I would like to send a human crew to check that out and indeed turn humankind into a spacefaring civilization bringing life to the barren wastelands of empty space.

Ptolemy was the mainstream scientist on which scientists based their views until Copernicus and Gallileo overthrew him. In the wake of the Black Death, the scientific understanding of the causation of the plague was a planetary alignment. Medical science-based a lot of its conclusions on Galen. Take a historical perspective on science and you can see that again and again they dismiss their opponents in terms of ignorance and nonmembership. However, all of these guys would be regarded as fools by modern scientists.

Similarly, scientists that speculate on an extraterrestrial origin of life today do so on the basis of abiogenesis which is a tentative and unproven guess, and on an equation whose blanks can be filled in according to personal preference as there are no hard facts to support that process.

On this matter, however many degrees you possess from whichever university and however many years of experience of doing science, it matters little - this is not something you can demonstrate with anything approaching scientific methodology. If that is not so share the link.

Ptolemy aside (I really have no idea why you decided to bring him up and I still do not understand what your point is with him), while your comments in what should be done with science in space is something I do fundamentally agree with (we should focus on getting people in space safely and should also focus more on sorting that out before we go galivanting off to find out if there's other life forms out there), I do not understand your logic against the idea that life could be out there and we should be able to find it.

Find me a scientist that says "Oh, life exists out there because abiogenesis could be correct". The fact that your main fundamental problem with anything really just reads down to you just railing against the idea of abiogenesis does not lead me to believe that you are here to have this debate in good faith.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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There is no evidence that life spontaneously arose on earth beyond the fact that we exist.
Not just 'we', but a vast variety of life. The evidence we have is that at one time conditions on Earth were inimical to life as we know it. Shortly (in geological timescales) after conditions on Earth became compatible with life as we know it, very simple life appeared and spread rapidly. We also have evidence that many of the complex molecules on which life relies (the 'building blocks' of life) were available in the environment.

Our own lab experiments have shown that many of the reaction cycles of simple metabolic pathways, some of the more complex molecules of life, cell-like vesicles, and other cellular structures, can all spontaneously appear in conditions believed to be very similar to those when the first evidence of life appeared.

We have a good thermodynamic explanation for why spontaneous self-assembly of complex systems occurs under those conditions, and a number of plausible hypotheses being tested for how life might have arisen using those processes.

Creation would be a better explanation for a great many reasons.
Well, I don't know how you judge a good explanation, but for me (and many scientists & philosophers), a good explanation should make testable predictions (so you can find out if it's wrong); it should have specificity, so it gives an insight into and understanding of the particular phenomenon it explains; it should preferably have some scope so that insight & understanding can be seen to apply to other phenomena; it should be parsimonious so that it introduces no unnecessary or unknown entities (Occam's razor); it should not raise more questions than it answers, particularly unanswerable questions, and it should preferably be consistent with our existing body of knowledge; finally, an explanation that can directly explain anything is not really an explanation at all.

Now, not all explanations can satisfy all of those criteria, but creation (if that means invoking some kind of 'creator'), is interesting in that it satisfies none of them. As I have said many times in these forums, I don't see how it is any better than saying it was 'Magic!'.

If you can make a reasonable argument for why the criteria above are not good ways to judge an explanation, or show how your creation explanation is a better explanation than the 'Magic!' explanation, then we can discuss the merits of the creation explanation.

Since the process cannot be duplicated it cannot be proven by the scientific method.
The scientific method does not prove things, it can provide evidence to increase or decrease confidence in an explanation; at best, it can disprove an explanation by showing that its predictions are false.

We don't have to duplicate the exact process by which life arose - we'll probably never know the exact process. We don't even have to demonstrate the whole process in one go; we only have to demonstrate that every step of a process to produce simple life can occur, and that they can plausibly link together.

Since the estimate is flexible and a plugin to the equation it is meaningless.
I'm inclined to agree with you on that - many people have taken it seriously and put in estimates that support their views of the incidence of life of various levels of complexity. The answers vary by many orders of magnitude.

We may have reasonable estimates for a few of the terms, but I see it more as a warning of the futility of making numerical estimates with multiple dependent unknowns.
 
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Inkfingers

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If it (life) happened once, it could happen again, and given the sheer enormity of the universe it seems highly light that have done so. Heck if it is found on Enceladus or Titan it means that there are probably countless places it has occurred.
 
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Tolworth John

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Looking it up, the actual quote is "When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.”

However, I can't find the source, so I can't say what the context could have been. I don't see how it can equate to people believing that aliens exist.

You are right it has nothing to do with just aliens, but everything to do with the nonsence that non christians belief instead of Christianity.
 
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Tolworth John

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"Speaks" of if that is what one chooses
to look for.
I think people misrepresent the issues
and confuse themselves with making it out
that "random undirected chance" is remotely
as accurate as it is redundant.

My personal take on the "wonder" is
that it is much diminished in every way
the less informed it is.
And ftm, if a person is in awe of
something they merely imagine.

I have no idea what you mean.

as far as I am concerned creation tells me there is a creator and any other belief is pure fantasy.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You are right it has nothing to do with just aliens, but everything to do with the nonsence that non christians belief instead of Christianity.

I... no, I don't follow that logic.
 
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Ophiolite

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The probability of life emerging spontaneously is empirically 0.
Unsupported assertion.
You and I stem from created life.
Unsupported assertion.
It is a matter of belief whether you accept creation or abiogenesis as there is no way to demonstrate either scientifically
  • I don't believe anything.
  • I lean to towards abiogenesis since it is supported by observations in many pertinent fields.
  • I downplay creation since it is faith based not evidence based.
  • Your assertion that abiogenesis cannot be demonstrated scientifically is void of support. That it has not been demonstrated does not preclude its future demonstration.
We may disagree on Big Bang and Macroevolution but that was not the focus of this thread.
I agree it was not the focus of the thread. Keep that in mind next time you are tempted to introduce irrelevancies.
 
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Ophiolite

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Your problem is to explain biogenesis
Biogenesis is quite well understood, even by fundametalists as reflected in their mantra "Life only comes from life". Perhaps you misspoke.

And, assuming you meant abiogenesis, I doubt the problem of explanation resides with @Tinker Grey. Perhaps you meant the responsibility for answering the question of abiogenesis lies with science. If so, that might be well why so many scientists are at work addressing the problem.

And so, I am left with a question, why would you spend time stating the obvious?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Excluding earth only 2 of those variables N* and FO are greater than 0 which makes the equation rather pointless.

Nope.

As SelfSim noted, observations can determine what fraction are not active. And we have early estimates of the rocky planet count, e.g.,

List of potentially habitable exoplanets - Wikipedia

Only the two factors specifically about life are unknown to be positive beyond our own atmosphere.
 
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Oneiric1975

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Why is the idea that aliens exist so deeply entrenched in the modern mind?

Given the size of the universe and a lack of need to be the center of said universe, some people assume we are not alone in the cosmos.
 
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Oneiric1975

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Suppose that the same amount of effort was expended to find out if God exists,

I rather assume that indeed there has been MORE effort expended to find out if God exists by humans.

It is kind of what humans have always done.
 
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SelfSim

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Nope.

As SelfSim noted, observations can determine what fraction are not active. And we have early estimates of the rocky planet count, e.g.,

List of potentially habitable exoplanets - Wikipedia

Only the two factors specifically about life are unknown to be positive beyond our own atmosphere.
'Habitable' is a tricky one (IMO) .. Its meaning depends its specific intended purpose, I think(?)
It also leads to 'Superhabitable', where specific physicochemical parameters for living organisms fall under consideration.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Science makes a great many bold assertions including the Big Bang, Macro Evolution, and Abiogenesis none of which can be demonstrated using the scientific method. So is the existence of aliens just another one of these theories based on consistent guesses designed to color our expectations to the extent of exclusion of all other possibilities

Sorry, but those are not "bold assertions". If you do not understand something ask questions. Don't make obviously false claims.

Well, the empirical evidence can be listed thus far:

1) A proof for the chemical evolution of life from inorganics actually happening: none can be demonstrated

Oh my, you failed a high school level of science literacy. Science does not do "proofs" science is evidence based and there is quite a bit of evidence for abiogenesis.

2) SETI: We have heard nothing

Correct. So what?

3) Buz Aldrin eyewitness testimony from the moon: "Magnificent desolation"

Correct, except for your spelling. So what?

4) Various robotic surveyors: No conclusive proof of ET found.


Correct. So what?

So I guess any model that predicts the existence of aliens is as authoritative is asking for blind faith.

Incorrect. Aliens probably exist. Or have existed. You do not understand the limitations of SETI. It was not a well thought out project. Not finding evidence that way only "proves" that there are no near by aliens using the same technology that we use.

My own opinion is that this is just marketing for robot research. The existence of aliens is a motivating factor to pay for boring space science which otherwise would never get finance. If we had human space flight programs the public would be more engaged with the research and the budget would be higher.

I disagree. Aliens probably exist. But it is foolish to expect to find them here. Interstellar travel may be impossible. The more we learn of physics that more difficult it appears to accomplish. The universe is incredibly large. We can only test a very small part of our galaxy. And think of it, it took over 4.5 billion years for intelligent life to evolve on our planet. Though that is a sample size of only one it indicates that intelligence, if it exists elsewhere, is incredibly rare. But life should not be. Life is a natural result of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It probably exists on many planets. Do not conflate alien life with alien intelligence. But even that probably exists elsewhere in the universe. The problem is that signals of that life are unlikely to travel to us.
 
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Tolworth John

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I... no, I don't follow that logic.
Chesterton said if people stop believing in an almighty creator God, they will start believing in anything other than that God.

Look around you, most people do not believe in the God as revealed in the Bible, instead they believe in just about anything.
 
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