Should we be supporting Israel in all of their endeavors?

Good topic thanks,

Quite a good read is the little book "Israel in the News" by Derick Prince.

Israel is God's chosen people and the Old Testament tells us without doubt that God wants Israel to live in that region. Opposing God and His chosen people is a dangerous thing, I would never do that.

Hvizsgyak said:

Thanks for the book suggestion. I looked on amazon but did not see that book by derick prince but there were numerous others. I've been watching a youtube video by derick prince called "israel and the end times. I haven't gotten through all of it yet but I sense he supports the jewish people establishing the state of israel again. He says the jews are God's chosen people and who are we or anybody to take the land away from them when God gave it to them. The scripture mr. prince used alot was jeremiah so i'm going to jump back into reading that book.

There was a book called "israel in the headlines" by derick prince could that have been book? Thanks again for some direction. God bless.

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Yep, that will be it - sorry for the inaccuracy of title.

In the archeology digs, they've found numerous items including new Dead Sea scroll fragments, "Christ, born of Mary ' inscription, First Temple Mount artifacts, ritual bath from the Second Temple period, a fortress from the time of King David, and a city wall from the First Temple period.

Sometimes it causes those of other faiths to take notice.

Hvizsgyak said:

I have supported Israel in their right to protect their citizens and their right to establish the state of Israel. A lot of times though, I admit I don't know what's REALLY happening there. I mainly felt that that country was given to them by God Himself. Recently though a friend was talking about the Book of Revelation and the End Times and He said the enemy are the Zionist because there should be no Israel until the Messiah returns. The Messiah will establish the New Israel (New Jerusalem?)

Now I know alot of Christians support Israel and help them so possibly to usher in the Messianic age sooner. I felt I should dig in more to find out what my friend was talking about. I've watched a few documentaries of Israel, Orthodox Judaism for Israel and against Israel, Palestinians (who they are and where they came from). I've watched debates between Zionists and Anti-Zionists and I must say this topic is fascinating and yet very sad. Sad because many innocent people are being killed on both sides. I don't know how anybody can come at this problem without a religious mind.

So to be truthful, I looking for answers, guidance, thoughts on the subject or good places to gather good reliable information. Finally the reason I would like to learn more is because there are many views on this subject and I couldn't tell you yea or nay as to whether they are good, bad or meaningless views. One view in point is how long have the Palestinians actually been there. I've heard that the whole region was pretty desolate until 1930 or so. Then some Jewish people started slowly coming back. They bought land from some wealthy Arabs who sold the the worthless land for large sums of money. The Jewish people started fixing up the land into a prosperous area. The Arabs weren't too happy. Tensions grew to what they are today. What do you think?

Thanks for anyone input; I appreciate it. God bless.

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NO

Israel as God refers to it and Israel the political state formed by people have always been two different things - from 1 Samuel 8 onward.

Israel the political state is an important ally of the U.S., so we have political reasons for supporting them. But that is different than God's calling for his people Israel, to which we belong.

J_B_ said:

Israel as God refers to it and Israel the political state formed by people have always been two different things - from 1 Samuel 8 onward.

Israel the political state is an important ally of the U.S., so we have political reasons for supporting them. But that is different than God's calling for his people Israel, to which we belong.

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Interesting perspective thanks...

Carl Emerson said:

Interesting perspective thanks...

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It's not my perspective alone, but the perspective of the Lutheran Church (and probably other traditional churches).

"What is a nation?" is a major historical topic, and different cultures see it in different ways. For some it is embodied in a person, for some in an institution (a monarchy). It can be the land, the language, an ethnic category. It can be a religion or an idea.

That was one of the things that originally made the U.S. unique. It's nation status was supposedly embodied in ideas, which made it possible to accept all people and expand into any new territory. It would seem that has largely faded away (which isn't all bad).

Anyway, for Israel it was their calling from God and his promises to them - though like the U.S. that later disappeared to be replaced by other things. You should take a look at Zionism, which is a late idea from the 19th and 20th centuries that replaced Judaism for many Jews. It was the appropriation of Jewish symbols to the idea of a Jewish race/nation - it was the secularization of the Jews, replacing religion with the state. It was a very common & deliberate movement, much the same as what the Progressives did to Christianity in the U.S. And it is Zionism that evangelicals cling to now with such a passion, not God's original call.

J_B_ said:

It's not my perspective alone, but the perspective of the Lutheran Church (and probably other traditional churches).

"What is a nation?" is a major historical topic, and different cultures see it in different ways. For some it is embodied in a person, for some in an institution (a monarchy). It can be the land, the language, an ethnic category. It can be a religion or an idea.

That was one of the things that originally made the U.S. unique, was that it's nation status was supposedly embodied in ideas, which made it possible to accept all people and expand into any new territory. It would seem that has largely faded away (which isn't all bad).

Anyway, for Israel it was their calling from God and his promises to them - though like the U.S. that later disappeared to be replaced by other things. You should take a look at Zionism, which is a late idea from the 19th and 20th centuries that replaced Judaism for many Jews. It was the appropriation of Jewish symbols to the idea of a Jewish race/nation - it was the secularization of the Jews, replacing religion with the state. It was a very common & deliberate movement, much the same as what the Progressives did to Christianity in the U.S. And it is Zionism that evangelicals cling to now with such a passion, not God's original call.

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So how does your thesis gel with the following scripture that referred to the then Nation of Israel?

Romans 11
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Carl Emerson said:

So how does your thesis gel with the following scripture that referred to the then Nation of Israel?

Romans 8
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

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I'm not sure what you refer to. The word "nation" never appears in that verse, so to interpret the reference to Israel as your idea of a nation is unfounded. I'm also not sure why you didn't quote other passages where the word "nation" is actually used, such as Genesis 12 or Exodus 19.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you expect me to get from that passage, because Romans is one of the best places to support what I'm saying. I'm sure you agree one can't simply take a single passage as the end of the matter. Instead, consider Romans 2:28-29, which says a Jew is not determined outwardly, but inwardly by the Spirit. This follows with talking about Abraham's justification by faith, not by flesh or works (Romans 4). From there it speaks of how the branch of the Jews has been cut from this root and the Gentiles grafted in their place - the new Israel.

If you're familiar with that idea, I'm sure you've already built your case to dismiss what I'm saying. If you're not familiar with it, Google "the Church as the New Israel" and you'll get hundreds of hits referring to Romans 9-11 as the justification for that idea.

Hvizsgyak said:

I have supported Israel in their right to protect their citizens and their right to establish the state of Israel. A lot of times though, I admit I don't know what's REALLY happening there. I mainly felt that that country was given to them by God Himself. Recently though a friend was talking about the Book of Revelation and the End Times and He said the enemy are the Zionist because there should be no Israel until the Messiah returns. The Messiah will establish the New Israel (New Jerusalem?)

Now I know alot of Christians support Israel and help them so possibly to usher in the Messianic age sooner. I felt I should dig in more to find out what my friend was talking about. I've watched a few documentaries of Israel, Orthodox Judaism for Israel and against Israel, Palestinians (who they are and where they came from). I've watched debates between Zionists and Anti-Zionists and I must say this topic is fascinating and yet very sad. Sad because many innocent people are being killed on both sides. I don't know how anybody can come at this problem without a religious mind.

So to be truthful, I looking for answers, guidance, thoughts on the subject or good places to gather good reliable information. Finally the reason I would like to learn more is because there are many views on this subject and I couldn't tell you yea or nay as to whether they are good, bad or meaningless views. One view in point is how long have the Palestinians actually been there. I've heard that the whole region was pretty desolate until 1930 or so. Then some Jewish people started slowly coming back. They bought land from some wealthy Arabs who sold the the worthless land for large sums of money. The Jewish people started fixing up the land into a prosperous area. The Arabs weren't too happy. Tensions grew to what they are today. What do you think?

Thanks for anyone input; I appreciate it. God bless.

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Try this article. It may not be precisely what your looking for but it will certainly clear up a lot of misconceptions.
Bible Symbolism in Genesis

J_B_ said:

I'm not sure what you refer to. The word "nation" never appears in that verse, so to interpret the reference to Israel as your idea of a nation is unfounded. I'm also not sure why you didn't quote other passages where the word "nation" is actually used, such as Genesis 12 or Exodus 19.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you expect me to get from that passage, because Romans is one of the best places to support what I'm saying. I'm sure you agree one can't simply take a single passage as the end of the matter. Instead, consider Romans 2:28-29, which says a Jew is not determined outwardly, but inwardly by the Spirit. This follows with talking about Abraham's justification by faith, not by flesh or works (Romans 4). From there it speaks of how the branch of the Jews has been cut from this root and the Gentiles grafted in their place - the new Israel.

If you're familiar with that idea, I'm sure you've already built your case to dismiss what I'm saying. If you're not familiar with it, Google "the Church as the New Israel" and you'll get hundreds of hits referring to Romans 9-11 as the justification for that idea.

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Sorry - I meant Rom 11:25

This is clearly not addressed to believers, but Pauls kin, the Jews. "All Israel" in this case is definitely not a reference to the church.

Unless you can point to a time in history when all Jews were saved, this has to be an event yet to come.

And the last verse refers to the gifts and callings of the Lord are irrevocable - is also a reference to Israel meaning the Jews.

So I would not be so quick to dismiss Israel and insist that their callings are transferred to the church... This is exactly what Paul is not saying in this passage.

Carl Emerson said:

Sorry - I meant Rom 11:25

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It doesn't matter. The point remains that one verse in isolation does not make a case. You must consider the surrounding context. In my previous post I already acknowledged there are passages referring to the nation of Israel. But what is Israel in this context?

First, Paul is Paul - the academic and the crafter of words. He straight out says Israel has a double meaning - both the ethnic Jews and the assembly of believers (Romans 9:6).

I've already indicated Romans 2:28-29. Then Romans 9:6 emphasizes the point - not all who descend from Israel are Israel, and Romans 11:5 - only a remnant will be saved. How will they be saved? By grace, just like us. That's 3 times in the book of Romans alone that Paul emphasizes Israel is not about blood relation or belonging to a political state. It's an inward thing - a matter of faith and spirit.

Carl Emerson said:

Unless you can point to a time in history when all Jews were saved, this has to be an event yet to come.

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Again, as Paul states, only a remnant will be saved, not an entire political nation. What you speak of is Zionism - that Israel's destiny lies not in God but in it's ethnicity and the power of its culture, it's political rights regarding a specific piece of land.

If God's promise was to save ALL Israel, he has failed. the OT lists any number of Israelites who were lost along the way.

Carl Emerson said:

So I would not be so quick to dismiss Israel and insist that their callings are transferred to the church.

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It's not a transfer. It's a continuation of the faithful. As Paul says, it's those who are justified by faith as it was with Abraham and as it will always be. Again context. The Jews were objecting to admitting Gentiles to the Church because they didn't circumcise and keep kosher. It is in this context that Paul emphasizes Israel is not those who circumcise, but those who are called to faith, whether they be Jew or Gentile. So, yes, a remnant of Jews will be saved, but more in a "Jews for Jesus" sense than a nation-state sense.

And that has always been the case. God did not call Israel to save Israel alone. It was always his purpose to call them to be his instrument for saving the world. God has always told the faithful to evangelize all nations. Jonah was sent to Nineveh. Daniel was sent to Babylon. etc. etc.

The matter of US support for the State of Israel is complicated. But if we leave all the religious thinking about it aside, this still is the only democracy in the Middle East and the only ally of the United States in the region (even if there are a few chinks in that armor).

Isn't this, and common decency, sufficient to justify our support for Israel in view of the vows that have been made by various other Middle Eastern nations to obliterate Israel?

Hvizsgyak said:

This is very interesting. Zionism was started and promoted in the late 19th century by Theodor Herzl. He was more a nationalist for a Jewish state than an Orthodox Jew. He has even been labeled a Reformed Jew (religiously not Jewish but culturally Jewish ) by some.

Theodor Herzl wasn’t Jewish, according to Israeli minister – Mondoweiss

This is what makes supporting or not supporting present day Israel so difficult to decide. The current prime minister of Israel is Benjamin Netanyahu and I believe he is a Conservative Jew. So the Reformed Jewish people basically started up the country of Israel in 1948 but the Conservative Jewish people have been slowly gaining control of the country. So much so, that some of the Orthodox Jewish people are convinced that this is the Israel again that God had promised Abraham and his descendants. But there are a group of Orthodox Jewish people that still believe that Israel will not be whole again until the Messiah returns. And then you have all sorts of of people confusing the pot such as "who are the Palestinians"? Wow!

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Again, it's not a religious matter. Supporting Israel is a purely political decision based on the interests of the U.S. That doesn't make it bad, but it's a completely different thing.

Luther battled the same problem regarding Crusades & fighting off the Ottoman Empire. You can read his response here, but in short he tells the Pope it's fine for kings to fight the Ottomans in defense of their people & property, but in religious terms the Pope should be evangelizing the Turks, not killing them.

So, I guess evangelicals share at least that in common with the medieval Roman church - a desire for a crusade to recover Palestine.

Albion said:

The matter of US support for the State of Israel is complicated. But if we leave all the religious thinking about it aside, this still is the only democracy in the Middle East and the only ally of the United States in the region (even if there are a few chinks in that armor).

Isn't this, and common decency, sufficient to justify our support for Israel in view of the vows that have been made by various other Middle Eastern nations to obliterate Israel?

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Modern Israel is not an innocent among the wolves, and let's not idolize democracy. But yes, there are definite political reasons for supporting Israel.

J_B_ said:

Modern Israel is not an innocent among the wolves, and let's not idolize democracy. But yes, there are definite political reasons for supporting Israel.

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Supporting other free countries that are under attack has always been a policy of the United States.

I made mention of the fact that our relations with Israel have not always been flawless, but there is no question about which nation(s) in that region want to live in peace with their neighbors and have free elections...and which do not.

It also is to our own benefit to support those nations that are friendly and cooperative towards the West.