Hello again, It becomes apparent when your really having a conversation with a wall. Maybe he will consider what we said and be open to meditation on the possiblity that he interprets scripture through TULIP colored glasses.
Oh I can prove 100% that a person believes before they receive the Holy Spirit. Did this one last week.
This is exactly how I interpret Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. Did Jesus forget to mention baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these verses? BELIEVES.
I am.
I certainly do believe what Jesus taught and I do not lack faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Your faith is in baptism and not exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. So guess who lacks faith? Your faith is in the wrong object.
Absolutely false and this also demonstrates that you don't truly understand what it means to believe in Christ unto salvation. There have been many people who attend various false religions and cults who have been water baptized, but DON'T TRULY BELIEVE. Such people may believe "mental assent" that Jesus exists and in certain historical facts about Jesus, yet they don't believe in/trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, but instead trust in works for salvation. I used to be one of those people prior to my conversion several years ago.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Are you calling me condemned? I believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. I am trusting in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation, yet you call me an unbeliever because I'm not trusting in water baptism as a supplemental means to my salvation? You trust in water baptism (a work) for salvation. I trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
I believe in Jesus' Word, just not according to your misinterpretation of Jesus Word. I also believe in His death, burial and resurrection. I not only believe that His death, burial and resurrection "happened," but I am also trusting in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16) Instead of trusting in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, you trust in baptism. Guess who doesn't believe in Christ alone for salvation?
It's the lack of belief that causes condemnation in Mark 16:16 and not the lack of baptism. It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe the gospel, but if you are on your death bed and cannot get baptized before your death, you are still saved because you BELIEVE (Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but he who does not believe will be condemned. *NOWHERE does the Bible mention "water baptized or condemned." Period.
My baptism was for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins received upon repentance/faith (Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 20:21; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) so my baptism was according to Jesus' gospel and Peter's gospel and Paul's gospel. There is only one gospel. Do you attend the church of Christ?
You proved me correct. You do not believe Jesus when He said that faith and baptism saves us. Therefore you do not believe Jesus' words, His gospel. No one that has never heard the gospel or ever had Mark 16:15-16. Read to them comes to the conclusion after reading it, that "well I don't believe Jesus said I need to be baptized to be saved" No one! Only those who have been taught first that Jesus didn't mean what He said in Mark 16:16. This false gospel of only belief saves. Puts the bias in the mind to think water baptism cannot be what Jesus is saying saves us. Problem with your teaching is nowhere does Jesus teach that ONLY or ALONE saves anybody.
That's incorrect.
Since it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism, (Mark 16:16(b) then baptism is not what actually saves us. Jesus saves us through belief/faith. If water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises salvation/eternal life to those who simply BELIEVE/place FAITH in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). *What happened to baptism?
I believe Jesus' words, His gospel. I just don't believe the gospel according to Campbellism. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, (oops what happened to baptism?) for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
It sounds to me like you are throughly indoctrinated into Campbellism. Roman Catholics and Mormons and other works-salvationists would also agree with your false gospel. Mark 16:16(b) - But he who does not believe will be condemned remains your achilles heel to your false gospel of salvation by water baptism. The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
Saving belief/faith goes beyond mere mental assent and involves trust and reliance. Example: I believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." That would be mere mental assent belief and even the demons believe that. Saving belief not only believes that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" but is also trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of salvation. That's not only believing with our head, but also with our heart.
Action which "follows" believing the gospel is works and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
Hmm.. Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?
Water baptism "follows" remission of sins and conversion to Christ. (Acts 10:43-47) You seem to have more faith in baptism than you do in Christ to save you. Who is your Savior?
The thief on the cross. If someone is truly converted, then why would they refuse to be water baptized? I can't think of one Christian that I know who refused to be baptized.
That is false. *NOWHERE does God say "baptized or condemned." See John 3:18. You are indoctrinated!
Believers are commanded to be water baptized and I could not wait to get baptized after my conversion, so refusing to be baptized after my conversion was unfathomable for me. Yet I knew without a doubt that I had been born again/saved the moment I placed my faith in Jesus Christ for salvation on a Saturday night several years ago prior to receiving water baptism on Sunday morning. Baptism was not a must or else situation and if I died in my sleep before Sunday morning I was still saved because I believed the gospel. (Romans 1:16) Praise God!
I did not explain it away. You ignored the second half of Mark 16:16 and inserted your eisegesis into the text. I also properly harmonized scripture with scripture (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, which you failed to do. You simply isolated one half of one verse, built your biased doctrine on it, then ignored the rest.
I did not explain away Acts 22:16, but properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, which you once again failed to do.
Roman Catholics like to use that bogus argument as well. Before that time period we read:
Actually, I'm correct. Those in the church of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing on Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
People in the church of Christ often misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."
We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This does not mean that it's not by God's grace that we are saved through faith or that we did not repent prior to placing our faith in Christ for salvation etc.. We are still saved by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. We are not saved by water and works. You just don't get it because you don't truly believe.
In regards to Acts 22:16, as Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ, but it does not literally wash away our sins, contrary to your conclusion. In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47).
Your interpretation of Jesus' gospel : He who believes and is NOT baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. You need to tell Jesus on judgment day that," Lord I only need to believe and NOT be baptized to be saved" And you know what Jesus will say to you? He who believes and IS baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned Your faith is a lack of trust in Jesus. If you truly trusted Him you would have put your trust in doing what He commands you to do. Fact: Baptism is commanded by Jesus in His great commission. Proving it is essential not optional. You cannot get around this fact by saying "I could not wait to be baptized" BUT, According to your false teaching on Mark 16:16. You could just as well NOT be baptized and be saved. Even though baptism is a MUST, direct command, you are saying it is non-essential. You should also tell Jesus on judgment that baptism is a direct command that I do not have to obey because it is non-essential to my salvation. The latter part of Mark 16:16 includes a lack of belief in thinking as you do, that I do not need to be baptized. You do not believe Jesus' teaching or His commandments. Tell me if you can seperate this coordinating conjunction AND as you do with Jesus' words in Mark 16:16. " He that eateth and digesteth his food shall live; but he that eateth not shall die.
No you did not put your trust in Him, for you deny the essentiality of His direct command to be water baptized to be saved.
You keep using a poor argument by using verses that only mention Belief/Faith that supposedly nullify the entirety of Jesus' gospel unto salvation.
what happened to baptism? You cherry picked verses in John to try and prove your false faith alone gospel by EXCLUDING Jesus' gospel in Mark 16:16. THATS WHERE BAPTISM WENT!!
You are falsely accusing me. I never in my life believed or have been taught salvation can be earned. The Holy scriptures nowhere teach this false doctrine, Ephesians 2:8-9 Is what I believe.
What happened to CONTEXT?
AT Robertson is a southern Baptist. He is teaching his sects interpretation of scripture. He needs to just read all of the book of Acts and let the Word form his doctrine, instead of what he is doing, letting his personal doctrines influence his exegesis.
Absolutely not gospel teaching Danthemailman.
I already explained this multiple times and my faith is in the person and finished work of Jesus for salvation and is not in water and works for salvation and I will be more than happy to tell Jesus on judgment day that I trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. You can tell Jesus on judgment day that His finished work of redemption was IN-sufficient to save so you turned to supplements (water and works) in order to help Jesus save you and see how that turns out. It's your faith that lacks complete trust in Jesus for salvation.
I already have. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) I BELIEVE in Him for salvation. In John 3:36, notice - "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".
I already refuted this numerous times. You are just going in circular rants.
It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, yet Jesus clarified the second clause with, "but he who does not believe will be condemned." Nothing there about a lack of baptism causing condemnation. It's like saying, "he who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well." Of course, it's not the washing it down with water part that makes a person well. It's the medication, but if water is not available and the person takes the medication dry (been there, done that) they will still be made well "because of the medication."
The entire gospel? You pervert the gospel by "adding" water and works to it. Christ is an IN-sufficient Savior according to your gospel. Those numerous verses that only mention Belief/Faith clearly refute your argument, but since you don't understand what it means to believe in/place faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, you remain confused and frustrated. Water baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.
So you reject the words of Jesus in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? Are these verses incomplete verses to you? What about Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Also incomplete verses? You would rather distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.
I presented a concrete argument for salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone, but you just don't have ears to hear. It's you who is guilty of FLAWED HERMENEUTICS.
Did the disciples preach the death, burial and resurrection of Christ before the cross?
I never forget the gospel and I was saved by believing the gospel. (Romans 1:16) You have a "different" gospel. A "works based" gospel.
What are you ranting about now? I already shared what the gospel is to you multiple times. Your so called whole gospel is a "different" gospel of salvation by "water and works."
Mark 16:16 is not in context with those passages of scripture that I cited. You are stuck on your pet verse while ignoring the second half of Mark 16:16 and the verses I cited. Flawed Hermeneutics!
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not need to spell out repentance because those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel. Confession does not need to be spelled out either because faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together, (Romans 10:8-10) as I already explained in my previous post.
If performing a work stands between us and salvation, then salvation is earned or merited (at least in part). Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways
You teach salvation by faith + works, so you don't believe Ephesians 2:8,9.
The second half of Mark 16:16 remains your achilles heel. Your church indoctrination runs very deep.
Jesus did not say that whoever is not baptized will not be saved, so baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation, but since you have placed your faith in water baptism + other works, you have not put your trust in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, so guess where that leaves you?
Your flawed logic is getting old. Unbelievers, those who merely believe "mental assent" in Jesus, but do not trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation get baptized all the time in various false religions and cults. Jesus certainly needed to include baptism in the latter part of the verse in order to make water baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. You just don't get it.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying these new converts did not get water baptized after they believed the gospel and were saved. I'm simply stating the fact that salvation precedes water baptism. In regards to obeying the gospel, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
I'm surprised it took you this long to mention Acts 2:38, which is typically the favorite pet verse of the church of Christ. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
What about the disciples before the cross? Did they believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ? So what was the content of what they believed about Jesus before the cross?
I'm very familiar with this argument. Certain member of the church of Christ use it quite regularly, yet others simply argue, well how do we know the thief on the cross was not already baptized? Just to cover all the bases I suppose.
Yes, repentance precedes saving faith in Christ, yet you reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith, which demonstrates that you don't fully understand what repentance is or what faith is, as I already previously explained.
Another ridiculous angry rant. Now calm down and pay attention. The point of this passage was not whether or not this took place before or after the cross. The point was to show you that repent precedes believe him (John the baptist). Repent and believe him. You were so busy getting carried away with your angry rant that you missed my simple point.
Repentance is before faith in Christ. We must first change our mind before we can place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. What is the scriptural order in here? Believe him and repent or repent and believe him?
Did Jesus say believe the gospel then afterwards repent, OR repent and believe the gospel? Stop being dishonest.
So your definition of repentance is baptism? No wonder you are so confused!
Regardless of your accusations, the scriptural order here is repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order. This is not difficult, yet you seem determined to make this out to be more complicated than it really is.
Bottom line. *Notice the order and spare me the rant.
Yet both faith and belief "apart from additions or modifications" are in connection with salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). So we are not talking about mere "mental assent" belief, like the belief of demons. (James 2:19)
Jesus commands or the commands of your church? There is a difference between obeying a command in order to become saved and obeying a command after we are saved. You put the cart before the horse.
Just like other works-salvationists, James chapter 2 trips you up. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
Faith that demonstrates it's alive by works and not a bare profession of faith. When James says "faith alone" he is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." Saving faith in Christ is alive and results in producing works.
We are not saved by obedience/works, yet obedience/works demonstrates that our faith is alive in Christ.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
I didn't twist Acts 20:21. I simply pointed out to you the scriptural order of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Do you have a translation which reverses that order? Then accept the verse as it reads and enough with your angry rants. You post a lot of exclamation marks. Try not to have a melt down!
Danthemailman, I never said the baptism of repentance was for in order to obtain repentance.In Matthew 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water "for" repentance.. *Now was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? OR was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? Getting water baptized "in order to obtain" repentance makes no sense at all. Repentance precedes water baptism. Are you seeing the light yet?
Hello! Good question. Most that have been taught the false gospel of sola fide teach Romans as works being a negative towards salvation. Paul never taught that All works were not in the gospel unto salvation. Paul is speaking of WORKS OF THE LAW in Romans. Which works is that? The keeping of the ordinances and laws of Moses. So, of coarse in Romans Paul speaks against works, for he is teaching about the works of the old covenant with Moses. The old law of Moses cannot save anyone. Not even those that died in faith before Jesus accomplished His work to never sin and die for our salvation. Romans 4:5 ...but to him that worketh not...
