Are there any references in the OT that resolve the premise "The Son of God = God"

AdamjEdgar · May 28, 2021

For example,
if one was to ask a Jew in the first century (prior to 100 A.D) if the Son of God = God...

and, knowing that the Jew would have used old testament scriptures for their doctrine, did they believe this doctrine as a religious movement?

I would like biblical references or even any known early writings that may shed light on this.

New testament scriptures may not be used unless they directly answer this question...ie a new testament writer directly says, the Jews knew that the Son of God = God.

Jews who converted to Christianity are not relevant to this question unless they claim to have believed the Son of God = God prior to their conversion.

I can think of an Old Testament gem that perhaps answers this question...

Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

If Jews followed this scripture and based doctrine on it, then all Jews would have in fact been trinitarian.

disciple Clint · May 28, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
For example,
if one was to ask a Jew in the first century (prior to 100 A.D) if the Son of God = God...

and, knowing that the Jew would have used old testament scriptures for their doctrine, did they believe this doctrine as a religious movement?

I would like biblical references or even any known early writings that may shed light on this.

New testament scriptures may not be used unless they directly answer this question...ie a new testament writer directly says, the Jews knew that the Son of God = God.

Jews who converted to Christianity are not relevant to this question unless they claim to have believed the Son of God = God prior to their conversion.

I can think of an Old Testament gem that perhaps answers this question...

Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

If Jews followed this scripture and based doctrine on it, then all Jews would have in fact been trinitarian.

The question that comes to my mind is if a Jew believed that Jesus was God he would have converted you have excluded those who converted so what are we to do?

HTacianas · May 28, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
For example,
if one was to ask a Jew in the first century (prior to 100 A.D) if the Son of God = God...

and, knowing that the Jew would have used old testament scriptures for their doctrine, did they believe this doctrine as a religious movement?

I would like biblical references or even any known early writings that may shed light on this.

New testament scriptures may not be used unless they directly answer this question...ie a new testament writer directly says, the Jews knew that the Son of God = God.

Jews who converted to Christianity are not relevant to this question unless they claim to have believed the Son of God = God prior to their conversion.

I can think of an Old Testament gem that perhaps answers this question...

Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

If Jews followed this scripture and based doctrine on it, then all Jews would have in fact been trinitarian.

What you looking for is found in the writings of Philo of Alexandria. You can read about Philo's idea of the first-born Son of God here:

Philo of Alexandria | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Sabertooth · May 28, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
Are there any references in the OT that resolve the premise "The Son of God = God"

"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called

Wonderful,
Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 NKJV

Handel: Messiah, For Unto Us A Child Is Born

disciple Clint · May 28, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
For example,
if one was to ask a Jew in the first century (prior to 100 A.D) if the Son of God = God...

and, knowing that the Jew would have used old testament scriptures for their doctrine, did they believe this doctrine as a religious movement?

I would like biblical references or even any known early writings that may shed light on this.

New testament scriptures may not be used unless they directly answer this question...ie a new testament writer directly says, the Jews knew that the Son of God = God.

Jews who converted to Christianity are not relevant to this question unless they claim to have believed the Son of God = God prior to their conversion.

I can think of an Old Testament gem that perhaps answers this question...

Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

If Jews followed this scripture and based doctrine on it, then all Jews would have in fact been trinitarian.

Old Testament Parallels Prove Jesus Is God
A comparison of the Old and New Testaments provides powerful testimony to Jesus’s identity as God. For example, a study of the Old Testament indicates that it is only God who saves. In Isaiah 43:11, God asserts: “I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.” This verse indicates that (1) a claim to be Savior is, in itself, a claim to deity; and (2) there is only one Savior—the Lord God. It is thus highly revealing of Christ’s divine nature that the New Testament refers to Jesus as “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13). Is Jesus God?

BobRyan · May 28, 2021

disciple Clint said:
The question that comes to my mind is if a Jew believed that Jesus was God he would have converted you have excluded those who converted so what are we to do?

They needed to believe He was the Messiah as John the baptizer told them He was - and some did believe that.

But believing He was "God" is a tougher one. His enemies were always trying to argue He was evil and their "proof" was any statement He made that might even remotely imply - He was God. That was enough to condemn Him for all. It is a pretty hard sell to say that someone in Nazareth "is God". Today we get it from scripture and hind-site is 20/20. But for them it was a bit more difficult.

Sabertooth said:
"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called

Wonderful,

Counselor,

Mighty God,

Everlasting Father,

Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 NKJV

So "yeah" - pushing the idea that carpenter from Nazareth is "mighty God" and "Everlasting Father" would be a hard sell then , or even today with a modern carpenter.

So what we take for granted reading scripture with 20/20 hindsight, was much more of a challenge for them at the time.

John 1:12 "to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

com7fy8 · May 28, 2021

Hebrews 1:8 says >

"Your throne, O God", and claims this is speaking to "the Son".

And in Psalm 45:6-7 we have >

"Your throne, O God",

and then it says, "God, Your God, has anointed You".

Clare73 · May 28, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
For example,
if one was to ask a Jew in the first century (prior to 100 A.D) if the Son of God = God...

and, knowing that the Jew would have used old testament scriptures for their doctrine, did they believe this doctrine as a religious movement?

I would like biblical references or even any known early writings that may shed light on this.

New testament scriptures may not be used unless they directly answer this question...ie a new testament writer directly says, the Jews knew that the Son of God = God.

Jews who converted to Christianity are not relevant to this question unless they claim to have believed the Son of God = God prior to their conversion.

I can think of an Old Testament gem that perhaps answers this question...

Isaiah 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

If Jews followed this scripture and based doctrine on it, then all Jews would have in fact been trinitarian.

How many times must God say it before it is true?

Jeremiah 31:22 - The LORD will create a new thing on earth--a woman will encompass the Mighty One (be with male child).

Clare73 · May 28, 2021

com7fy8 said:
Hebrews 1:8 says >

"Your throne, O God", and claims this is speaking to "the Son".

This is Psalms 45:6-7 where God is speaking (Hebrews 1:8).

And in Psalm 45:6-7 we have >

"Your throne, O God",

and then it says, "God, Your God, has anointed You".

Davy · May 30, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
For example,
if one was to ask a Jew in the first century (prior to 100 A.D) if the Son of God = God...

and, knowing that the Jew would have used old testament scriptures for their doctrine, did they believe this doctrine as a religious movement?
....

You cannot omit The New Testament Scriptures as an answer to that, especially in the timeframe during Christ's Ministry and thereafter. The Book of Acts, and especially with Saul (Paul) hunting down Christians as a Pharisee reveal the belief on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ of The Old Testament, as Jesus said He revealed what was written concerning Himself to His disciples. By the time of Saul hunting Christians, they were a well-known religious sect.

AdamjEdgar · May 30, 2021

Davy said:
You cannot omit The New Testament Scriptures as an answer to that, especially in the timeframe during Christ's Ministry and thereafter. The Book of Acts, and especially with Saul (Paul) hunting down Christians as a Pharisee reveal the belief on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ of The Old Testament, as Jesus said He revealed what was written concerning Himself to His disciples. By the time of Saul hunting Christians, they were a well-known religious sect.

Most Jews did not believe in the Messiah. Exactly why would they then believe writings that were not compiled until centuries later?
The Bible cannon was not established during the first century. Much of the new New testament had not been written until very late and considering the Jewish tradition did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, that argument simply doesn't stand the stink test.

AdamjEdgar · May 30, 2021

HTacianas said:
What you looking for is found in the writings of Philo of Alexandria. You can read about Philo's idea of the first-born Son of God here:

Philo of Alexandria | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Excellent reference...exactly what I was looking for. Thank the triune God for Philo.

I particularly like the phrase in the referenced article where Philo describes the future Messiah as..."born from eternity". This is possibly the bridge between the JW belief that Jesus was a created being, and the Trinitarian belief that He is God.

Clare73 · May 30, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
Excellent reference...exactly what I was looking for. Thank the triune God for Philo.

I particularly like the phrase in the referenced article where Philo describes the future Messiah as..."born from eternity". This is possibly the bridge between the JW belief that Jesus was a created being, and the Trinitarian belief that He is God.

Jesus of Nazareth was created, and with his fully human nature, he has a fully divine nature, making him God.

God is three persons in one.
Jesus is two natures in one, one created and the other eternal.

Davy · Jun 2, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
Most Jews did not believe in the Messiah. Exactly why would they then believe writings that were not compiled until centuries later?
The Bible cannon was not established during the first century. Much of the new New testament had not been written until very late and considering the Jewish tradition did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, that argument simply doesn't stand the stink test.

You simply do not understand. How did the unbelieving Pharisee Jews know 'how' to recognize Christians to hunt them down and try them in Jerusalem? Through their doctrine of Jesus Christ of course. Your idea just has no basis in historical fact at all.

disciple Clint · Jun 2, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
Most Jews did not believe in the Messiah. Exactly why would they then believe writings that were not compiled until centuries later?
The Bible cannon was not established during the first century. Much of the new New testament had not been written until very late and considering the Jewish tradition did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, that argument simply doesn't stand the stink test.

The N.T. was completed prior to 90AD

AdamjEdgar · Jun 2, 2021

disciple Clint said:
The N.T. was completed prior to 90AD

you make the assumption by this that throughout the then known world the canon of the New Testament was collated and known.

Unfortunately, the flaw in your statement is that most Jews did not know anything about those writings...indeed the canon wasnt established until considerably later. They did not have a Bible in the first century...only fragmented random letters that probably didnt even get far beyond the churches they were written to. The would have been almost no consistent consensus on doctrines beyond that already established in Old Testament scriptures.

That is why i say, traditional Jews did not have any NT references on which to base such a doctrine.

disciple Clint · Jun 2, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
you make the assumption by this that throughout the then known world the canon of the New Testament was collated and known.

Unfortunately, the flaw in your statement is that most Jews did not know anything about those writings...indeed the canon wasnt established until considerably later. They did not have a Bible in the first century...only fragmented random letters that probably didnt even get far beyond the churches they were written to. The would have been almost no consistent consensus on doctrines beyond that already established in Old Testament scriptures.

That is why i say, traditional Jews did not have any NT references on which to base such a doctrine.

I would disagree, all of Paul's letters were in circulation as was the rest of the N.T. Yes they had not yet been combined into the N.T. but they were copied and shared in the churches. There was an orginized Church structure COUNCIL OF JERUSALEM (συνέδριον, G5284; tr. “council” in every occurrence in the NT, RSV. Heb. סַנְהֶדְרִין), Biblical meaning: “an ecclesiastical assembly for deciding matters of doctrine or discipline” (RHD). Used in reference to the first general church Council recorded in Acts 15, where the word “council” per se does not occur; not to be confused with the Jewish Sanhedrin. Council of Jerusalem - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

AdamjEdgar · Jun 2, 2021

disciple Clint said:
I would disagree, all of Paul's letters were in circulation as was the rest of the N.T. Yes they had not yet been combined into the N.T. but they were copied and shared in the churches. There was an orginized Church structure COUNCIL OF JERUSALEM (συνέδριον, G5284; tr. “council” in every occurrence in the NT, RSV. Heb. סַנְהֶדְרִין), Biblical meaning: “an ecclesiastical assembly for deciding matters of doctrine or discipline” (RHD). Used in reference to the first general church Council recorded in Acts 15, where the word “council” per se does not occur; not to be confused with the Jewish Sanhedrin. Council of Jerusalem - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

they were shared in churches teaching the Gospel of Jesus. Jewish synagogues were still under the control of the Old System and did not consider any of what the early church apostles wrote as scripture.
For example, one sect (who had their own shortened version of the book of Matthew) considered Paul an apostate heretic well into the Second Century A.D.

You have to remember, the Jewish tradition still even today does not consider Jesus the Messiah. Why would such a tradition less than 50 years after his death be less likely to think the same thing?

Consider the following references...

Many pseudo-Messiahs arose throughout the long history of Judaism. There have been over 60 pseudo-Messiahs in Israel’s history. All met a very sad end. Some were imprisoned or killed, while others converted to various religions to escape punishment or death. None met the requirements of the Messiah. Christians believe Jesus met these standards, but the Jewish people continue to wait for their Messiah. What is the Jewish View of the Messiah? - The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry (foi.org)

More than 1,000 years after Jesus’ crucifixion, the medieval sage Maimonides (also known as Rambam) laid out in his Mishneh Torah specific things Jews believe the messiah must accomplish in order to confirm his identity — among them restoring the kingdom of David to its former glory, achieving victory in battle against Israel’s enemies, rebuilding the temple (which the Romans destroyed in 70 CE) and ingathering the exiles to the land of Israel. “And if he’s not successful with this, or if he is killed, it’s known that he is not the one that was promised by the Torah,” What Do Jews Believe About Jesus? | My Jewish Learning

Hundreds of years after the time of Jesus, a legend in the Talmud teaches that Jesus was a false Messiah, a sorcerer, who led the people of Israel astray and seduced them to idolatry. Contrary to the rabbinical explanation and according to the descriptions in the New Testament gospels, the actual reason why the Pharisees rejected Jesus as Messiah lies in the fact that the religious leaders of his time were corrupt. All they cared about was control, power and to make money at the expense of the people. Jesus threatened the exclusiveness of the sect which they had created. They knew that if the people of Israel accepted and followed Jesus, they’d lose their power, their influence, their control, their honored position and of course, their source of income. The untold reason why Jewish people do not believe Jesus is the Messiah! - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

Most Jewish people are taught that Jesus is only for Gentiles. Why Do Most Jewish People Not Believe in Jesus? - Jews for Jesus

disciple Clint · Jun 2, 2021

AdamjEdgar said:
they were shared in churches teaching the Gospel of Jesus. Jewish synagogues were still under the control of the Old System and did not consider any of what the early church apostles wrote as scripture.
For example, one sect (who had their own shortened version of the book of Matthew) considered Paul an apostate heretic well into the Second Century A.D.

You have to remember, the Jewish tradition still even today does not consider Jesus the Messiah. Why would such a tradition less than 50 years after his death be less likely to think the same thing?

Consider the following references...

Many pseudo-Messiahs arose throughout the long history of Judaism. There have been over 60 pseudo-Messiahs in Israel’s history. All met a very sad end. Some were imprisoned or killed, while others converted to various religions to escape punishment or death. None met the requirements of the Messiah. Christians believe Jesus met these standards, but the Jewish people continue to wait for their Messiah. What is the Jewish View of the Messiah? - The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry (foi.org)

More than 1,000 years after Jesus’ crucifixion, the medieval sage Maimonides (also known as Rambam) laid out in his Mishneh Torah specific things Jews believe the messiah must accomplish in order to confirm his identity — among them restoring the kingdom of David to its former glory, achieving victory in battle against Israel’s enemies, rebuilding the temple (which the Romans destroyed in 70 CE) and ingathering the exiles to the land of Israel. “And if he’s not successful with this, or if he is killed, it’s known that he is not the one that was promised by the Torah,” What Do Jews Believe About Jesus? | My Jewish Learning

Hundreds of years after the time of Jesus, a legend in the Talmud teaches that Jesus was a false Messiah, a sorcerer, who led the people of Israel astray and seduced them to idolatry. Contrary to the rabbinical explanation and according to the descriptions in the New Testament gospels, the actual reason why the Pharisees rejected Jesus as Messiah lies in the fact that the religious leaders of his time were corrupt. All they cared about was control, power and to make money at the expense of the people. Jesus threatened the exclusiveness of the sect which they had created. They knew that if the people of Israel accepted and followed Jesus, they’d lose their power, their influence, their control, their honored position and of course, their source of income. The untold reason why Jewish people do not believe Jesus is the Messiah! - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

Most Jewish people are taught that Jesus is only for Gentiles. Why Do Most Jewish People Not Believe in Jesus? - Jews for Jesus

AdamjEdgar said:
Why would such a tradition less than 50 years after his death be less likely to think the same thing?

Now that is the key question and the answer is they would believe because Jesus is the only Messiah that not only fits the 400+ O.T. prophesies but He is also the only one who had many reliable eye witnesses who were still alive testifying that He returned from the dead just as He said He would and ascended into heaven as they watched.

AdamjEdgar · Jun 2, 2021

disciple Clint said:
Now that is the key question and the answer is they would believe because Jesus is the only Messiah that not only fits the 400+ O.T. prophesies but He is also the only one who had many reliable eye witnesses who were still alive testifying that He returned from the dead just as He said He would and ascended into heaven as they watched.

you did not read any of the references/quotes in the latter part of my post. I suggest you go back and check it out as you will find the complete opposite of what you are saying are the facts.
My point is not that New Testament Christians did not believe in Jesus...these people were his converts (of course THEY would believe in Him).

The question actually does not focus on this point however, it asks if there are any OT scriptures that show that "The Son of God = God"

Are there any references in the OT that resolve the premise "The Son of God = God"

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