Anglican?

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Hoonbaba

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Hey guys,

I just stumbled upon something interesting:

According to the 1979 Book of Common Prayer, Anglicans (particularly Anglo-Catholics) believe in many Catholic doctrines like the seven sacraments.

I remember Jukes or someone else once quoted the BCP which says purgatory and transubstantiation is repugnant of the word of God, but that's from the 1926 version of the BCP.  The 1979 BCP says some really interesting things (read it for yourself!):

http://www.holycross-raleigh.org/bcp/859.html

http://www.holycross-raleigh.org/bcp/860.html

http://www.holycross-raleigh.org/bcp/862.html

I've been discussing some of this with an Anglo-Catholic.  While I don't know if he agrees with transubstantiation, he doesn't really care about that than the Real Presence.  Here's what he had to say about it:

Well, we don't agree totally 110% with transubstantiation. Then again, we don't disagree with it either. (I personally am a consubstantialist, but I know of Anglicans who are transubstantialists.) The particulars about how Christ makes himself present in the Eucharist is much akin to arguing about how many angels dance upon a pinhead, IMHO. The fact of the matter is that we receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. It ain't no symbol--we receive Christ in the Eucharist, eat his flesh, and drink his blood. And this is serious business, and should not be taken lightly. Eaten and drank properly--with due reverence--we do so rightfully and to our betterment. If done so improperly, we gamble with eating and drinking damnation upon ourselves. Regardless, one must have a prayerful consideration with the Holy Mysteries, as God would have us.

It almost seems as if the entire philosophy behind the 'mechanics' of the bread and wine becoming the flesh and blood is almost like trying to explain the trinity. LOL But I like how he said, "It ain't no symbol" :)

And concerning Marian doctrine, here's what he said:

Anglo-Catholics teach Assumption and Immaculate Conception. Other Anglicans may or may not. We don't hammer it as hard as Rome does, however. This doesn't bother me. God chose Mary, as she was "blessed above all women." How he did it by making her sinless, well, Immaculate Conception appears to be a totally acceptable explanation, even if it isn't directly in Scripture. (Hence, the three-legged stool.)

And his three-legged stool is understood this way:

Anglicans ascribe this to what Anglican theologian Richard Hooker referred to as the "Three-legged stool" of Scripture, Holy Tradition, and Reason. Scripture is primary in the way we view Holy Tradition, which is, in turn, how we are to use the Godly gift of reason. All three legs are attached to the same stool, although some legs are longer than others--Scripture being the longest, for obvious reasons.

heh, I think his third leg of the stool has a little problem there, but this definitely sounds Catholic.

With all this in mind, I'm beginning to believe that the Church of England may eventually be restored with Rome, as long as all the anglican heresies go away.  It just might take a really long time...

Thoughts?

-Jason
 

chelcb

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How can they do this when the bible teaches and mainstream Christianity and even non Christian religions know this to be a direct sin against God's commandments?

It’s like Murder, you can’t do it, it’s a sin. I know we have murder by abortion legal but I do not know of any mainstream Churches condoning it and pushing for it.

"the gates of hell..." I guess???
 
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Hoonbaba

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While I'm aware of these heresies running through the Church of England, there are some particular parishes that are very centered on sound doctrine.  This church for example does not teach heretical teachings like the ordination of women or same sex marriages.

Now if every Anglican parish were to remain steadfast to godly teaching, I seriously think that the Anglican Church may one day reunite with Rome.

Thoughts?

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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3rd April 2003 at 06:14 PM Gideon4God said this in Post #10

no they don't. it was declared in a papal bull around 1900.

What's a papal bull? And does that mean that EVERY Anglican parish (including the one's that are very 'catholic') does not have a valid priesthood and sacraments?

-Jason
 
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Gideon4God

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3rd April 2003 at 11:44 PM Hoonbaba said this in Post #11



What's a papal bull? And does that mean that EVERY Anglican parish (including the one's that are very 'catholic') does not have a valid priesthood and sacraments?

-Jason


In 1896 Pope Leo XIII declared Anglican Orders invalid with his Bull Apostolicae Curae. The Ecumenical Movement has now gained such momentum that determined efforts are being made to secure a reversal of Pope Leo's decision so that the orders of clergy belonging to the worldwide Anglican Communion, which includes the Episcopal Church in America, will be recognized as equivalent to the orders of Catholic clergy. Father Michael Clifton, an English priest and an authority on recusant history, shows in this article that the teaching of Apostolicae Curae cannot possibly be reversed. He also shows the manner in which the movement to recognize Anglican Orders is linked to the Agreed Statements of the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission which have not yet been rejected by the Vatican and that the new Catholic ordination rites have been influenced by ecumenical motives.
http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1979_June/Anglican_Orders.htm

 

Maybe these is still hope if catholics are willing to overrule Pope Leo?
 
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isshinwhat

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Apostolic Letter on Reserving Priestly Ordination to Men Alone

ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS

Pope John Paul II

May 22, 1994

Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate:

1.PRIESTLY ORDINATION, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to His apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.

When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church." {1}

But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration Inter Insigniores, which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published. {2}

2.The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."{3} To these fundamental reasons the document adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ's way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: "The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology - thereafter always followed by the Church's Tradition - Christ established things this way." {4}

In the Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, I myself wrote in this regard: "In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behaviour, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time." {5}

In fact, the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan: Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, "through the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,{6} the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rev 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers {7} who would succeed them in their ministry. {8} Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles' mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer. {9}

3.Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as a discrimination against them. Rather, it is to e seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the Wisdom of the Lord of the Universe. {10}

The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church." {11}

The New Testament and the whole history of the Church give ample evidence of the presence in the Church of women, true disciples, witnesses to Christ in the family and in society, as well as in total consecration to the service of God and of the Gospel. "By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honour and gratitude for those women who - faithful to the Gospel - have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins, and the mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church's faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel." {12}

Moreover, it is to the holiness of the faithful that the hierarchical structure of the Church is totally ordered. For this reason, the Declaration Inter Insigniores recalls: "the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. 1 Cor 12 and 13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints."

4.Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable Brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my Apostolic Blessing.

From the Vatican, on 22 May, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

Joannes Paulis pp. ii _______________

{1} PAUL VI, Response to the Letter of His Grace, the Most Reverend Dr. F.D. Coggan, Archbishop of Canterbury, concerning the Ordination of Women to the Priesthood (30 November 1975); AAS 68 (1976) 599.

{2} Cf. CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH, Declaration Inter Insigniores, on the Question of the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood (15 October 1976); AAS 69 (1977), 98-116.

{3} Ibid., 100.

{4} PAUL VI, Address on the Role of Women in the Plan of Salvation (30 January 1977); Insegnamenti, XV (1977), 111. Cf. also JOHN PAUL II, Apostolic Exhortation Christifideles Laici, (30 December 1988), 51; AAS 81 (1989), 393-521; Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 1577.

{5} Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem (15 August 1988), 26; AAS 80 (1988),

1715.

{6} Cf. Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 28; Decree Presbyterorum Ordinis, 2b.

{7} Cf. 1 Tim 3:1-13; 2 Tim 1:6; *** 1:5-9.

{8} Cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, no, 1577.

{9} Cf. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, 21, 21.

{10} CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH, Declaration Inter Insigniores, 6: AAS 69 (1977), 115-116.

{11} Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, 27: AAS 80 (1988), 1719.

{12} CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH, Declaration Inter Insigniores

6; AAS 69 (1977), 115.
 
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