Futurist Only Is Trumpet 6 the same as Bowl 6?
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I don't think that passage necessarily means all kings will be on the Antichrist's side. The Old Testament is clear that he will be a conquering antichrist, which is why the white horseman of seal 1 goes out to conquer. He won't be the ruler of the whole world, but only the 10 countries.
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While we definitely have some differences, I very much appreciate your charts and your incorporation of OT prophecies.
My question for you is regarding Daniel 11. If verse 44 is the battle of Armageddon, how does he then walk away from the battle to establish his base to the west of Jerusalem in verse 45?
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I think it's quite clear that the kings of the whole world are very willing to join him in war. It shows he is the ruler of the entire Earth.
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Well the book was addressed to 7 churches, but since 7 represents completeness, it could be taken to be to all churches in all ages. Maybe the 7 bowl judgments are indeed going to come to pass, but they aren't all of the judgments. In other words, the judgments listed in Revelation aren't an exhaustive list.Hi
I agree that the number 7 can represent completeness in the bible, but I don't understand it even being mentioned if it is not going to numerably quantify something? I can't follow the logic there, please explain
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Well we need to understand that whole world in that day simply meant Europe, the middle east, and north Africa. That's why in the first century, the gospel had already gone out to the whole world (Colossians 1:6).
Even if you want to argue that all of the nations of that part of the world join him, that doesn't occur until the 6th bowl. Before that, he clearly engages in war and even becomes frightened by other nations. You can't just ignore the Old Testament context here.
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John wasn't writing about that old world but a world in the future and it is speaking about the actual whole Earth.
They were a part of his whole global empire. At the 6th vial, he calls upon them to send their militaries.
Revelation is the newest prophecy so it is the rule to go by. Many OT prophecies simply don't exist in the NT. Many changes happened with the new covenant. Daniel saw the little horn uprooting 3 of the ten horns but that doesn't happen at all in John's vision. This is why it is a bad idea to try to force OT prophecies into NT ones. Many people agree that Daniel wrote of a 7 year Great Tribulation but Christ said no flesh would survive so for the elect's sake that time would be shortened and no surprise that in Revelation we do see a 42 month Great Tribulation instead of 7 years.
Just a couple examples where God changed older prophecy by giving new and different prophecy.
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Douggg
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v44 is not Armageddon, but right before Armageddon.
In Daniel 11:40-43, it is near the end of the 7 years. We don't know the exact point on the timeline, but it appears to be around 6 months from the end that the other countries (apart from the beast's kingdom of the Western nations) will have no other choice for reasons of survival to attack the beast - because he will be controlling all of the oil in the middle east, and directing it to the Western nations.
He will be attacked from the south first - the African nations. Then when the northern nations see that happening, they will jump in and attack him from the north.
The beast with his Western armies of the EU, and the United States and Canada - will actually be winning as those attacks on him take place. As it says in Daniel 8 that he cannot be broken by hand (human means).
When the kings of the east join in on the attack on the beast, that is what really troubles him because of the size of their armies.
But they never actually engage the beast because the sixth seal event takes place with the kings of the east army at the beast's doorstep - which is something none of the kings of the earth will be expecting.
The threat of Jesus's sudden appearing in heaven will terrorize the kings of the earth, and it will take the convincing of the beast, the false prophet, and Satan to convince them to unite and make war on Jesus.
That is when Armageddon takes place - the uniting of the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus. Over the course of 45 days they assemble at Armageddon, come down to Jerusalem, taking it as hostage hoping that will keep Jesus from executing judgment of them.
It will not work, and Jesus will descend and split the Mt. of Olives in half
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Yes, but john wrote to a first century audience, so it is by no means certain that whole world should be extended to the Americas, Russia, or China.
All of the arguments for the whole world following him are just arguments from silence. And since arguments from silence aren't good arguments, there is no reason to say that just because Revelation doesn't repeat what the Old Testament says, therefore the Old Testament is incorrect in its predictions.
Clearly the 3 horns will indeed be uprooted. Whether or not that is mentioned in Revelation is absolutely irrelevant. All scripture is true; old or new. Prophecy never changes, but it can be more clear. What is the more clear interpretation of the 3 horns?
As far as the tribulation, Daniel clearly says the Abomination of Desolation will occur in the middle of the 7 year period. This is why Jesus in the Olivet Discourse mentioned great tribulations that will occur before the Abomination of desolation. So clearly Jesus, affirmed the Daniel prophecy.
What specific passage in Revelation or anywhere else says that the entire world will follow him before the 6th bowl? You need evidence to back up this claim.
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Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I am still confused as to when Daniel 11:45 takes place. Does he set up his base to the west of Jerusalem before, during, or after the battle of Armageddon/splitting of the mount of Olives?
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Douggg
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Daniel 11:45 is when the sixth seal event takes place - the cosmos parting and the world seeing Jesus before the throne of God in the third heaven.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
"between the seas" is the sea of the Galilee to the north, the Dead Sea to the south, and the Great Sea (which we call the Mediterranean) to the west.
"in the glorious holy mountain", it is talking about Mt. Zion, i.e. Jerusalem, the temple mount. It will be where the false prophet and Satan will be also, which they and the beast will direct their Armageddon strategy* to make war on Jesus. And that is where he, the beast, meets his end, as I show on my pictorial.
* Psalms 2:
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
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You are not going to be able to understand revelation unless you understand that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 after the tribulation is the same coming of Jesus that is shown at the 6th seal.
Christ does not remain in heaven at the 6th seal, he comes to the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The wrath of God begins at the 7th seal with the blowing of the 1st trumpet. The wrath of God is over when the 7th angel begins to sound. That is why the mystery of God is finished. That is why the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord. That is why it is the time the dead are judged and rewards are given. As I said before, The vials are just a different view of the wrath of God.
After the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet, you get a different view of what happens in the seals in Rev 13 and 14. Then you see the same coming of Jesus that you saw in Matt 24 immediately after the tribulation, in Rev 14.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is the same coming of Jesus in Matt 24, is the same coming of Jesus that you see at the 6th seal.
If Armageddon doesn't happen until after the 7th trumpet has sounded how is the mystery of God over when the 7th trumpet sounds? How are the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our God? Why is the dead being judged and rewards given. Also note what is happening at the 6th trumpet, and most of all note that we are not told what is happening during the 7 thunders.
Rev 6:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
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He wrote to multiple generations but he wrote about the end of the world and the second coming so that is the context. Therefore, when he said, "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty" he did mean the literal whole world rather than the smaller limited "world" of his day.
All ten horns are in tact on the beast empire until it is destroyed according to John.
Prophecy has changed but that is a topic for another thread.
Christ also said that time would be shortened.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev_13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev_16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
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It speaks of the second coming, but the second coming is not happening when the 6th seal is opened. It's only showing what will happen in the future at the 7th trump.
That is incorrect. He remains in heaven to open the 7th seal and remains in heaven until the 7th trump.
Scripture tells us the wrath of God comes at the 7th trump:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
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I am sorry I am already busy for a long memory day weekend. I will respond when I get back. Have a good weekend, everyone.
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Douggg
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There is a slight distinction between after the tribulation of those days and the end of the great tribulation.
The tribulation of those days is 1290 days long. The great tribulation is 1335 days long. The 45 days difference is between the appearing of the Son of Man in heaven and Jesus descending down to earth to end the great tribulation.
The sixth seal event the sign of Son of Man in heaven > then 45 days* as the kings of the earth prepare to make war on Jesus > then Jesus descending down to earth to cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire. And Satan bound and cast into the bottomless pit.
*During the 45 days, Zechariah 14:2 takes place.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
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Actually the two are exactly the same time period and is strictly 42 months long, no more or less.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
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Douggg
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In the bible, Daniel 12:11-12, is where the 1335 days and 1290 days is spelled out in the text. Which is longer than 42 months.
As far as the 42 months, the 1260 days, the time/times/half times expressions used in Revelation - they are not "exact" equivalents.
Which is why in some passages it is 42 months, while in other passages it is 1260 days.
I made a You Tube video on that particular issue, below, which I break down the 1260 days, the 42 months, the time/times/half times, the 3 1/2 days. At minute 8:45 and minute 12:40, I note the common mistake of people doing conversions - as exact equivalents in Revelation.
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Timtofly
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That is the part, John does not explain. It could indicate that Paradise along with God on the throne are no longer what Paul called the third heaven. At the 6th Seal the firmament is gone. "How close" is the part never explained. Obviously not as close as the New Jerusalem.
How would you interpret that part of the Lord's Prayer when the 6th Seal is opened? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? No one seems to agree, if the church comes to earth, or returns to heaven. What about a middle solution? The church is now seen as an "army" hovering over earth? We do not know. We can only speculate.
The 7th Seal does not have to be opened in heaven. It is opened in the presence of God on the throne. Since earth is the metaphorical footstool, the throne is already metaphorically here. When the spiritual blindness is removed, it will no longer be metaphorical. No where does it claim God comes down. Humans just cannot see the throne now. Where and the size is not given, unless there is a mount zion to the north, on a sea of glass. The 6th Seal removes all spiritual blindness and spiritual metaphor. The 6th Seal changes heaven and earth. Since all will be brought back together to God on the throne all the continents will be brought back as one closer to the "sides" of the north. It does not seem they will be in what is known as the southern hemisphere any more.
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