A difference in values?

I have at least 15 oy-vey moments a day but that's neither here nor there. On the subject of taxes, I have a different opinion. I gladly pay my taxes even when they are used for things I don't necessary support. I have to be making money in order to pay taxes and the more taxes I pay, the more money I am making. Looking at my most current pay stub (LES), so far this year, I have already paid $6,663.72 in Federal taxes. No complaints here.

The Libertarian would argue that the state by using force to compel people to pay taxes, that yes, it is indeed a type of theft. Your justification for why this theft takes place would not to the libertarian be a justification for the original theft.

I don't view taxes as a means to alleviate the poor or make society better. I view it as a means to keep order and that a government is better than pure anarchy. Though I am sympathetic to the libertarian argument. Especially since none of these social programs and endless government spending seems to end the problems within society.

Tax money can help us to have roads and police; and higher-up politicians and FBI deal with very dirty and dangerous people. You can deal with them, yourself, if you don't want to pay taxes.

And government people can use taxes to help people I can not reach to help them. Again, some of these might be not ones you would want to relate with, in person. But they need some sort of help . . . including prisoners. Would you rather keep a few of these in your home?

I wouldn't characterize taxation as "stealing." There is in fact a constitutional motivation TO pay taxes - in particular FOR constitutionally recognized governmental purposes (c.f. Article 1, Section 8 of the the US Constitution):

Article I
Section 8

• Clause 1

• The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

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Where I think things get sticky is in how people define "general Welfare." Personally, I think the writers of the Constitution delineated their meaning of "general Welfare" in the detail they provided in the subsequent clauses of that Section. Others have taken a much broader view - some would argue a totally open-ended view of what "general Welfare" means and have consequently put forth and passed literally thousands of spending bills for just about anything one might imagine. And of course, whenever the federal government passes a spending bill, we, the taxpayer are responsible for funding it via the taxes the government levies upon us to pay for such spending. This is the crux of the matter - a whole host of differing opinions about the role and duties of the federal government.

Taxes are a necessary evil in any society - we need them to pay for defense (army, navy, etc.), fire, police, postal service, roads, etc. (Article 1, Section 8).

Now, whether the "general Welfare" necessarily includes paying for social concerns - "alleviating hunger", homelessness, etc. is certainly debatable. It's DEFINITELY debatable if such programs are the purview of the federal government over say, the state or local governments. Moreover, it's equally debatable whether such programs as alleviating hunger and homelessness are best done by governments at all - especially the federal government, whose record of alleviating anything "socially good" is pathetically dismal, at best (e.g. the "war on poverty").

So, I wouldn't expect debate on this particular issue to subside any time soon. But again, to characterize those who believe it is NOT the responsibility of the federal government to cure these ills, and by extension force all taxpayers to pay for such programs, as "stealing" is mis-characterizing their values - and frankly, in a fairly gargantuan way.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

The Libertarian would argue that the state by using force to compel people to pay taxes, that yes, it is indeed a type of theft. Your justification for why this theft takes place would not to the libertarian be a justification for the original theft.

I don't view taxes as a means to alleviate the poor or make society better. I view it as a means to keep order and that a government is better than pure anarchy. Though I am sympathetic to the libertarian argument. Especially since none of these social programs and endless government spending seems to end the problems within society.

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I agree with you about the government being responsible for the poor. But if I thought that the proportion of money that actually went to the poor and needy had any relevance to the amount of taxes, I might be more happy about paying. Last Covid relief trillions (yes, I know, that wasn't taxes --they aren't getting fat, rich enough, off taxes in Congress) went about 9% actual (supposed actual --I got my doubts about even that...) Coronavirus-related money, from what I hear.

Mark Quayle said:

I agree with you about the government being responsible for the poor. But if I thought that the proportion of money that actually went to the poor and needy had any relevance to the amount of taxes, I might be more happy about paying. Last Covid relief trillions (yes, I know, that wasn't taxes --they aren't getting fat, rich enough, off taxes in Congress) went about 9% actual (supposed actual --I got my doubts about even that...) Coronavirus-related money, from what I hear.

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The idea of the government giving money to the poor directly is repellant to me. Mainly because I've seen what welfare is like here in NZ.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

The idea of the government giving money to the poor directly is repellant to me. Mainly because I've seen what welfare is like here in NZ.

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Agreed. I have too many friends that no longer care to look for work.

Fantine said:

I am taking refuge from the political forum for a second.

My ethics and morals give priority to the common good.

I just had an a ha (more like an oy-vey) moment where I realized that for some taxation is "stealing" and no matter how urgent and heartbreaking a situation is, or how many people are suffering, some people's ethics will inform their consciences that taxation (stealing) is a greater moral evil than alleviating hunger, or homelessness, for example.

Just curious as to what the ethics of posters here are.

And if any of you could help me understand this point of view.

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I tend to get a tax refund so ...

However, I don't see much difference in paying taxes compared to paying protection money to a criminal organization.

There's no real reason to pay taxes, (since the sons are exempt) but we just do it so they are not offended as the gospel narrative goes.

I see citizenship as a kind of social contract with both benefits and obligations. So part of the contract or agreement I make with the state by accepting citizenship is that I contribute in various ways (notably taxes) and I benefit in various ways (educational support, healthcare, etc etc).

So I don't see it as stealing, because a person is free to renounce their citizenship and leave that country. I understand there are some countries which do not tax their citizens. I have no idea how easy it is to move there and become a citizen, though.

Fantine said:

I have seen conservatives describe taxation as "stealing" dozens of times over the years on these pages. Not every conservative, or even most...but a few here and there.

But I never quite realized until tonight that there are people who actually believe that taxation is actually more morally evil than the human suffering adequate funding could alleviate.

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I don't think you understand the Libertarian or Conservative mindset if that's what you've come away with. Taxes constitute one evil in society which it is either necessary to have or to abolish, depending on where you fall on the Right, Libertarian spectrum.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

The Libertarian would argue that the state by using force to compel people to pay taxes, that yes, it is indeed a type of theft. Your justification for why this theft takes place would not to the libertarian be a justification for the original theft.

I don't view taxes as a means to alleviate the poor or make society better. I view it as a means to keep order and that a government is better than pure anarchy. Though I am sympathetic to the libertarian argument. Especially since none of these social programs and endless government spending seems to end the problems within society.

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That's close to my position as well but I will actually go farther though, it's easy to make a case that the Great Society and its various programs of welfare public housing etc. actually hurt society especially minorities (The Social Engineering increased single parent families, which lead to an endless cycle of poverty for some).


I also think the theft analogy has merit when one considers how wastefully some law makers spend the publics money. Many times this is simply throwing wheel barrels of money to support the people that donated to their campaign, their friends and political allies rather than spending it on something that the country really needs.

.

thecolorsblend said:

One day, I hope to understand why the secular left is so shocked and scandalized when somebody has a different opinion from them.

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I'm generally not surprised that somebody has a different opinion to me. But I'm often shocked as to what that opinion actually is.

Not to be disparaging. But some of our very conservative friends seem to be living 200 years in the past. They still have this nostalgic idea of the hardy pioneer--staking his claim, clearing his land, digging his well, building his home, plowing his field, raising his livestock, and planting and harvesting his crops. He defends and takes care of his family and himself. He's self-assured, self-sufficient, and self-reliant. Of course, good neighbors help each other in hard times. And charity is righteous, but that's what churches do. The government is for protection from evil-doers. Handouts aren't wanted or expected. If this romanticized notion of society ever really existed, it's long gone. In the 21st century, we are an urbanized, multiracial, multiethnic, multicultural, technology-dependent country. We must have--at the very least--a reliable, adequately funded social safety net. Which can be only be done collectively. Without this, a modern society will descend into bedlam. Think of Dickensian London magnified 1,000 times.

I didn't really mind paying taxes until I started to work for various state government agencies. The waste of tax dollars and the constant increase in taxes above wages is disheartening. I think if there was more direct accountability of how the money was spent, people might feel better about it. My two nephews are a good example of how I feel. One just rashly spends whatever I give him and always needs more. The other seems to put the money toward things that will pay off in the long term. I always give them the same amount (they compare notes..) but feel much better giving it to the one who is careful with his money and feel like I'm throwing my money into a bottomless pit with the other.