Who are they who are condemned already ?

FaithWillDo said:

Dear FreeGrace2,
There is no sense in going round and round on this subject. Christ has not prepared your heart to receive what I am presenting.

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Wow, what an arrogant comment. How do you know what Christ has done in ANYONE'S heart? You don't. So please don't pretend that you know.

I have already shown you the verses. Your world view is so strong, that you can't accept what those verses teach.

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In fact, my world view is the biblical world view. I don't accept what YOU think the verses mean.

But because you specifically asked, I will post again the verses where Paul teaches on spiritual language.

1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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None of these, or any other verses, speak of "spiritual language". You have again misunderstood Scripture. These verses speak of spiritual discernment, which it appears that you may be rather short on.

Our salvation is His work and He will not fail us.

Joe

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Amen to that!

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"Please address the examples I cited and
show me how any of them were elected to salvation."
Interesting. You claim election is being chosen for salvation, yet you won't address any of the biblical examples I gave proving that none of the examples were chosen for salvation.
So, do you have ANY verses that specifically and clearly teach that salvation is by election.

These verses don't say that election is TO salvation. And the verses in Eph say we are elected TO adoption AS sons. If words mean things, and they do, the verse says believers are elected to adoption AS (already sons) sons.

Our election to adoption isn't a verse about salvation, as many erroneously think.

In fact, Paul wrote this, regarding adoption:

Rom 8:23 - Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

This verse very clearly states that believers "wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship". And the next phrase, "the redemption of our bodies" shows WHEN that adoption occurs; at the resurrection.

So, believers aren't adopted YET. But we "wait eagerly" for it.


No, rom 9:23 has no link to election.

If you want to understand the PURPOSE OF ELECTION, look no further than Romans 9.

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

It couldn't be more clear. Election is to service.

1 Tim 5:21 describes angels as "elect".

Heb 1:14 - 14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

That is their election. The Bible says NOTHING about saved angels.


I just proved your claim wrong.

To your question, of course I do. Aren't you familiar with your Bible? Every believer should easily be able to prove the Trinity even though the word doesn't exist in Scripture.

2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Here we have all 3 members of the Trinity. Plus, every member is described as God in the Bible.

So there's the proof that the 3 members are all God.

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Dear FreeGrace2,

You said:
"Please address the examples I cited and
show me how any of them were elected to salvation."

Here are the verses:

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The above verse clearly says that those who were "chosen" (election) were chosen to be "children". In other words, they were chosen to be saved and to become children of God (sons of God). By the end of the final age, all mankind will be sons of God.

The purpose of God's creation is to make new sons of God. The Elect are made children first and then everyone else at the end. At the time of the resurrection from the grave, the Elect will receive their new spiritual bodies and will be complete. They were chosen to be first to be saved and that is why they are called "firstfruits". Why do you believe that becoming a child of God is NOT salvation??? Your belief makes no sense. Do you not understand salvation??? We are physically born as children of the Devil and are later "born again" as a child of God - that is the fulfillment of the promise and that is our "salvation".

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Again, the above verse says that they "obtained an inheritance", they are heirs to the promise and the promise is salvation.

2 Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages

Again, the above verse say that they are saved because of God's "purpose and grace" and that it was decided BEFORE the "times of the ages".

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Again, they were "chosen" to bring forth fruit. A person can only bring forth spiritual fruit if they are saved.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Again, those who are predestinated are saved by Christ (called, justified and glorified).

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The above verse is how the Parable of the Wedding Feast ends. Those who are only "called" to salvation (the wedding) are not given the wedding garment (Holy Spirit, clothed in righteousness) and are not allowed to attend the wedding. This is referring to the Nation of Israel rejecting Christ. But the Nation of Israel is also a "type" for all those who are "called" but not "chosen". All the "called" are invited to the wedding but only those who are "chosen" (the Elect, the heirs) are given the wedding garment (Holy Spirit) and are allowed to stay. Those "called" only have the Early Rain. Those "chosen" have both the Early and Latter Rain. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is only given at the time of the Latter Rain.

Now to your example of Jacob and Esau. It is NOT teaching on the Elect who were chosen from the foundation of the world. It is teaching a more basic spiritual truth.

Rom 9: 6-11 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The above scripture is where Paul explains about election and the salvation of mankind. Jacob and Esau are spiritual "types".

Esau represents mankind from birth (Old Man). He is born first and legally should be the "heir". But because Esau is spiritually flawed, carnally minded and sinful, God rejects him. And just like Esau, the first born of mankind is also rejected by God. God hates Esau. Esau is the flawed vessel who will be destroyed.

Jacob represents the New Man in Christ who is elected to be the heir. Esau should be the heir because he was born first but because of "the purpose of God" is to create new children, God's election is that the second born (New Man in Christ) will be the heir instead of the first born. In other words, the "elder shall serve the younger". Jacob is the new vessel, heir to the promise and a child of God.

These verses have nothing to do with God choosing the Elect from the foundation of the world to be firstfruits of the harvest of mankind. They are teaching about a much more basic truth about mankind. The similar analogy is the flawed vessel being created first and since it is flawed, another vessel is created that pleases the potter.

Here is another similar teaching that is misunderstood:

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered
into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew chapter 24 is a great "end-time" chapter which is greatly misunderstood. It is not literal. It is presented in Christ's spiritual language just as is all His teachings are. Chapter 24 is teaching on the pathway to salvation/conversion. It is the "end-time" of our Old Man and the birth of the New Man.

In the above verses, it references Noah. The Noah's ark story (real events) is a "type" that represents the destruction of the Old Man and the birth of the New Man. Those lost in the flood are types for the Old Man who is destroyed. Noah and His family are types of the New Man who are protected and saved.

And as in the "days of Noah", there shall be two in the field, one shall be taken and the other left. The one "taken" is the Old Man and the one who is "left" is the New Man. This is not a teaching on the rapture as it is commonly thought. The rapture is a false teaching.

As I said before, chapter 24 is teaching on conversion. And because that is the subject, Christ said this:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation He was speaking to did not pass away before it was all fulfilled. It was fulfilled a short time later when the apostles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. And it has been fulfilled over and over again within the lives of all of God's Elect since that time.

Joe

FreeGrace2 said:

Wow, what an arrogant comment. How do you know what Christ has done in ANYONE'S heart? You don't. So please don't pretend that you know.


In fact, my world view is the biblical world view. I don't accept what YOU think the verses mean.


None of these, or any other verses, speak of "spiritual language". You have again misunderstood Scripture. These verses speak of spiritual discernment, which it appears that you may be rather short on.


Amen to that!

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Dear FreeGrace2,
I hope you read my last post carefully. It is my hope that Christ has prepared your heart to receive it.

Christ words are "spirit" and they carry a different meaning than what man's wisdom teaches. Until Christ comes to a person and heals their blindness at the time of the Latter Rain, they will not be able to understand scripture. Here is where Christ teaches this truth:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time, the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ Himself is the Word of God, Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.

FreeGrace2, are you starting to understand yet?

Joe

FreeGrace2 said:

I said:
"Please address the examples I cited and
show me how any of them were elected to salvation."
Interesting. You claim election is being chosen for salvation, yet you won't address any of the biblical examples I gave proving that none of the examples were chosen for salvation.
So, do you have ANY verses that specifically and clearly teach that salvation is by election.

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These verses don't say that election is TO salvation. And the verses in Eph say we are elected TO adoption AS sons. If words mean things, and they do, the verse says believers are elected to adoption AS (already sons) sons.

Our election to adoption isn't a verse about salvation, as many erroneously think.

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So unsaved unbelievers are adopted sons of God?

In fact, Paul wrote this, regarding adoption:

Rom 8:23 - Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly

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And do unbelievers have the firstfruits of the Spirit, or are believers the ones who are elected to the adoption of sonship via their salvation through faith?

as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

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And to what is Paul referring here?
To the resurrection, when our salvation and the full realization of our inheritance in Christ
as already adopted sons (Romans 8:14-16) is completed.

This verse very clearly states that believers "wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship". And the next phrase, "the redemption of our bodies" shows WHEN that adoption occurs; at the resurrection.

So, believers aren't adopted YET.

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Incorrect. See Romans 8:14-16.

But we "wait eagerly" for it.
No, rom 9:23 has no link to election.

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And is the election only to service and not to salvation of "God's elect" in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; Romans 11:7; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10, etc., etc.?

And Peter's and Paul's letters (1 Peter 1:1; Titus 1:1) were to those elected for service rather than to those elected to salvation? Really?

If you want to understand the PURPOSE OF ELECTION, look no further than Romans 9.
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
It couldn't be more clear. Election is to service.

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Well, yes it can, and it is.

So you think election in Romans 9 is of Esau, whom God hated, rather than of Jacob, whom God loved and in whom "God's purpose of election might stand" that he be the one to receive the promises to Abraham (Genesis 35:9-12) rather than Esau? . . .Interesting.

1 Tim 5:21 describes angels as "elect".

Heb 1:14 - 14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

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Yes, the elect sons of God do serve, but their election is to sonship which serves.

That is their election. The Bible says NOTHING about saved angels.

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The elect angels are sons of God (Job 38:7) and are in the church (Hebrews 12:22-23), the body of Christ. That is as "saved" as it gets.

I just proved your claim wrong.

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You might want to rethink that.

To your question, of course I do. Aren't you familiar with your Bible? Every believer should easily be able to prove the Trinity even though the word doesn't exist in Scripture.
2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Here we have all 3 members of the Trinity. Plus, every member is described as God in the Bible.
So there's the proof that the 3 members are all God.

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Precisely. . .without Scriptire explicitly stating "There are three persons in one God," you have shown that it still teaches such in light of other Scripture correctly understood.

Which is my point regarding your notion of election. Without Scripture explicitly stating "election is to salvation," Scripture still teaches election to salvation in light of other Scriptures correctly understood.

So there's the proof that election is to salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:

This statement is the myth. Of course it exists. It just takes objectivity and an open mind.

So, if those are in short supply, then of course, eisegesis will rule the day.

There are lexicons, etc, with which to find out the meaning of words, and websites that can show every use of the specific word everywhere else.

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1. This makes the worldly view stronger as these are their tools. A spiritual person need not depend upon wordly tools to understand GOD.

2. It also suggest our intellect does not need the leading of the Holy Spirit ... a pagan Greek idolatry of philosophy. Are not teachers without the Holy Spirit suspect?

Clare73 said:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

It's not about free will, it's about ability.

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To interject:
IF we have free will here on earth, and
IF none are righteous none seek GOD,
THEN this being enabled or being drawn is against our will...

Do we believe HE goes against the free will of some (but not all for no reason) who all want to remain in their sins? Free will means nothing to this age, sigh.

FaithWillDo said:

Dear FreeGrace2,

You said:
"Please address the examples I cited and
show me how any of them were elected to salvation."

Here are the verses:

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You certainly have a lot of verses, but NONE of them say that salvation is by election, or that election is to salvation.

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The above verse clearly says that those who were "chosen" (election) were chosen to be "children".

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Please read them again. They do NOT say that. v.4 is very clear "God chose US...to be holy and blameless". I assume you are fluent in English.

The purpose of this election is stated in the words "to be".

Also, ther word "us" in v.4 is clearly defined or described by Paul in v.19 as "US who believe". So you can substitute the word "us" in v.4 with the word "believers".

So, the verse says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless. This proves that election isn't to salvation.

Believers are already saved.

v.5 isn't about salvation. It's about predestination about adoption. And do you know WHEN that adoption occurs?

I'll let you answer before I give the biblical answer.

The purpose of God's creation is to make new sons of God.

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If true, then please share the verse that teaches this.

The Elect are made children first and then everyone else at the end.

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Are you a universalist? I strongly reject that piece of work.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Again, the above verse says that they "obtained an inheritance", they are heirs to the promise and the promise is salvation.

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Nope again. The "we" here is the same as the "us" in v.4. Believers have obtasined an inheritance. That's God's own purpose. Nothing about election here.

2 Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages

Again, the above verse say that they are saved because of God's "purpose and grace" and that it was decided BEFORE the "times of the ages".

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Sure. Do you know what "God's purpose" in saving people is?

1 Corz 1:21 tells us in very plain words.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I highlighted the key words. So again, Paul is describing believers throughout Ephesians.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Again, they were "chosen" to bring forth fruit. A person can only bring forth spiritual fruit if they are saved.

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Nice try at this huge stretch. Your first sentence says it all. The election here is STILL about service. Unless you want to argue that fruit bearing isn't service.

What the verse doesn't say is the disciples were chosen for salvation.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Again, those who are predestinated are saved by Christ (called, justified and glorified).

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Where is any mention about "election" here? Nowhere.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The above verse is how the Parable of the Wedding Feast ends. Those who are only "called" to salvation (the wedding) are not given the wedding garment (Holy Spirit, clothed in righteousness) and are not allowed to attend the wedding. This is referring to the Nation of Israel rejecting Christ. But the Nation of Israel is also a "type" for all those who are "called" but not "chosen". All the "called" are invited to the wedding but only those who are "chosen" (the Elect, the heirs) are given the wedding garment (Holy Spirit) and are allowed to stay. Those "called" only have the Early Rain. Those "chosen" have both the Early and Latter Rain. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is only given at the time of the Latter Rain.

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This is a mess. Just a bunch of "spiritualizing". Jesus was teaching about eternal rewards. And the "friend" who came inappropriately dressed had no excuse. In Jesus' day, it was customary for the groom's father to provide wedding clothes for the guests. So the "frient" showed up not bothering to put on the garments he was given. This speaks to the fact that God has given the believer everything they need for life and godliness. That is the Holy Spirit. But the "frient" didn't make use of what was given him. And he gets removed from the wedding, which is a loss of a reward.

Now to your example of Jacob and Esau. It is NOT teaching on the Elect who were chosen from the foundation of the world. It is teaching a more basic spiritual truth.

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I've already shattered your opinion about Eph 1:4. The "us" refers to "believers" and they are already saved, so you CAN'T use Eph 1:4 as teaching salvation by election.

Rom 9: 6-11 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

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v.11 and 12 are very clear and address God's purpose of election. That kind of wording shows the GENERAL PRINCIPLE.

The above scripture is where Paul explains about election and the salvation of mankind.

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Nope. No mention of salvation here.

Jacob and Esau are spiritual "types".

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No, they are human beings, brothers, in fact. And God had a purpose each of them.

Esau represents mankind from birth (Old Man). He is born first and legally should be the "heir". But because Esau is spiritually flawed, carnally minded and sinful, God rejects him. And just like Esau, the first born of mankind is also rejected by God. God hates Esau. Esau is the flawed vessel who will be destroyed.

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Your "spiritualizing" only allows you to make up whatever you want.

Here is another similar teaching that is misunderstood:

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered
into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew chapter 24 is a great "end-time" chapter which is greatly misunderstood. It is not literal. It is presented in Christ's spiritual language just as is all His teachings are.

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No, you are just making up more stuff, which is called spiritualizing.

Chapter 24 is teaching on the pathway to salvation/conversion. It is the "end-time" of our Old Man and the birth of the New Man.

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Nope. It's literal.

In the above verses, it references Noah.

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No, in fact it references the DAYS of Noah. iow, how life was during his life just before he entered the ark.

The Noah's ark story (real events)

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lol. So this story IS literal. lol

As I said before, chapter 24 is teaching on conversion. And because that is the subject, Christ said this:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation He was speaking to did not pass away before it was all fulfilled.

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It seems you don't even understand what Jesus meant by "generation". Have you ever studied the Greek word for it?

Strong's Concordance
genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Definition: race, family, generation
Usage: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

Jesus was speaking of humanity as a whole. Not just the people of His time.

Did you notice that I commented on EVERY verse you quoted and explained them.

You seem to just ignore all my points and verses as if you didn't hear any of them.

FaithWillDo said:

Dear FreeGrace2,
I hope you read my last post carefully. It is my hope that Christ has prepared your heart to receive it.

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Stop patronizing me. It demeans you. I did read your last post carefully, and thoroughly refuted all of it.

My hope for you is that you read my response to that post carefully with eyes that see and ears that hear.

Christ words are "spirit" and they carry a different meaning than what man's wisdom teaches.

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Jesus' words are different because His message is different. Not because of your made uo "spiritual words", as if they carry a diffrerent meaning than how man uses them.

Until Christ comes to a person and heals their blindness at the time of the Latter Rain, they will not be able to understand scripture. Here is where Christ teaches this truth:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language.

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Just more made up stuff. Jesus was teaching against false doctrines, which is what the Pharisees taught. Such as salvation by keeping the Law. And many more things.

FreeGrace2, are you starting to understand yet?

Joe

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I certainly AM understanding where you have gone off the rails, biblically speaking.

Your constant spiritualizing has led you astray.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This statement is the myth. Of course it exists. It just takes objectivity and an open mind.

So, if those are in short supply, then of course, eisegesis will rule the day.

There are lexicons, etc, with which to find out the meaning of words, and websites that can show every use of the specific word everywhere else.

TedT said:

1. This makes the worldly view stronger as these are their tools. A spiritual person need not depend upon wordly tools to understand GOD.

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This is quite wrong. Godly scholars who study the original languages USE these tools that you have denigrated. They aren't tools of the world. They are simply tools. As are guns. It's the one who uses the tool that determines how it is used.

2. It also suggest our intellect does not need the leading of the Holy Spirit ... a pagan Greek idolatry of philosophy. Are not teachers without the Holy Spirit suspect?

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What I posted may seem to be "suggesting" something, but I assure you your conclusion is flat out wrong.

We absolutely do need the Holy Spirit guiding us.

So, please explain to me how one is filled with the Holy Spirit, since Paul directly COMMANDS believers to be filled with the Spirit. Eph 5:18

TedT said:

To interject:
IF we have free will here on earth, and
IF none are righteous none seek GOD,
THEN this being enabled or being drawn is against our will...

Do we believe HE goes against the free will of some (but not all for no reason) who all want to remain in their sins? Free will means nothing to this age, sigh.

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Have I not explained to you before that "free will" is a red herring,
that the real issue is disposition--preferences, likes--which govern the will, and
that God does not violate our free will but rather uses it to bring men to himself,
by working in their disposition, giving them to prefer the things of God, which they then willingly and freely choose, no forcing against free will, sigh?