Your God does not merit praise!

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JAL

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So you see Jesus as a skilled person like a magician, who had the fish stored and hidden away and very quickly would taken them out for whoever need a fish.
Jesus? No. The Third Person is sent to do the Father's work. And why stored away? There is plenty of matter at His disposal, for Him to shape into bread and fish at any moment. Last I checked, He has at least 100 billion galaxies worth of available matter, not to mention the possibility of additional matter outside our universe, hidden from us if it exists. Do you think that might be enough matter for the Third Person to quickly feed 5,000 humans? Gee. I'm not really sure. That's a tough one!
 
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JAL

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That's not what you said. Jesus multiplied the food. He didn't turn into the flash.
Not what I said the first time around? Then you misunderstood me. I have NEVER believed or stated that Jesus Himself directly performed this miracle. I've always credited it to the Third Person.

BTW, I don't recall that Scripture specifically says "multiplied" and, even if it does, it's still a matter of interpretation as to precisely how the Third Person performed the miracle. Given that creation ex nihilo is a logically incoherent gibberish, the most cogent interpretation of the text is that Yahweh manipulated matter.
 
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JAL

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-​

No doubt in this day and age you will find an audience for your teachings. But one person that it will not be, is me.
Sure. Like I said, if you prefer incoherent gibberish-doctrines over the perfectly straightforward, perfectly coherent teachings of Scripture, that is your prerogative. Certainly nothing I can do about it.
 
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Carl Emerson

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How can intangible hands mold clay? And why bother mold it? If God magically creates things ex nihilo, why didn't He simply pop the earth into existence fully molded already?

My reading makes a lot more sense.

Job 38:
2 “Who is this who darkens the divine plan
By words without knowledge?
3 Now tighten the belt on your waist like a man,
And I shall ask you, and you inform Me!
4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding...
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the measuring line over it?
6 On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When it went out from the womb, bursting forth;
9 When I made a cloud its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling bands,
10 And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11 And I said, ‘As far as this point you shall come, but no farther;
And here your proud waves shall stop’?

God initiated the physical beginnings from outside the created order in His eternal spiritual state along with the Son and the Spirit. This was not done physically but simply at His bidding - the intent of His will is supreme and He alone has the ability to create something out of nothing.

It is worth noting that true believers are given this same faith in the Spirit as sons and daughters of Abraham.

This is indeed is why true believers believe that Jesus was raised in the flesh. A corpse has no hope, no future, Nada...

But God's Spirit acted from outside the created order and raised Him from the dead.

It is worth noting that Jesus in His resurrected body was able to transition from being physical to spiritual at will. But to suggest that He is unable to affect the physical unless He Himself is physical makes no sense - the wind and the waves obeyed Him long before He was physically in the boat with the disciples.
 
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JAL

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God initiated the physical beginnings from outside the created order in His eternal spiritual state along with the Son and the Spirit. This was not done physically but simply at His bidding - the intent of His will is supreme and He alone has the ability to create something out of nothing.
This gibberish claim is pure assertion. Why should anyone believe it? Look, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - you haven't met that burden of proof. Nor can you. I myself bear no burden of proof, because simple material claims are not extraordinary claims.

This is indeed is why true believers believe that Jesus was raised in the flesh. A corpse has no hope, no future, Nada...But God's Spirit acted from outside the created order and raised Him from the dead.
Relevance? Where have I denied the bodily resurrection of Christ by the instrumentality of the Third Person?

It is worth noting that Jesus in His resurrected body was able to transition from being physical to spiritual at will.
Nonsense. Gibberish claim. Doesn't even make sense to say some like this, "I can't sit on my chair today because today it is immaterial." A material object is BY DEFINITION material. If it ceases to be that, it no longer exists.

But to suggest that He is unable to affect the physical unless He Himself is physical makes no sense - the wind and the waves obeyed Him long before He was physically in the boat with the disciples.
Let me get this straight. In your view, the inanimate winds and waves literally heard His command, understood what it meant, decided to obey it, and then somehow ambulated themselves accordingly, or desisted therefrom. I'll entertain that possibility only if YOU entertain the possibility that the storm consisted of either material angels or the divine Wind/Breath (the Third Person).

But I don't think we need to go that far. The disciples PERCEIVED the event as the winds and waves obeying God. Their perception doesn't necessarily prove that's literally what happened. More likely the Third Person simply manipulated matter.
 
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JAL

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So Jesus no longer exists?
You don't seem to get me. I don't believe in anything supernatural, immaterial/spiritual, magical.

I only believe in eternal matter, which has free will by the way. None of it will ever cease to exist. Matter is neither created nor destroyed.
 
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d taylor

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You don't seem to get me. I don't believe in anything supernatural, immaterial/spiritual, magical.

I only believe in eternal matter, which has free will by the way. None of it will ever cease to exist. Matter is neither created nor destroyed.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man
 
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JAL

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So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man
Relevance? The term translated spiritual is pneumatic. Have you ever seen pneumatic tools? Are they powered by immaterial spirits? Or by physical air/wind/breath?

Moreover, Gordon Fee, one of the foremost Pauline experts of the past century, insists that Paul never uses the term pneumatic to convey "spiritual/immaterial". Rather, says Fee, Paul is simply conveying "powered by the Third Person".

Thus a pneumatic gift, for example, is not really a "spiritual gift" but rather a gift powered by the Holy Pneuma (the Third Person).

The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Again, the English term spirit is never an exegetically justifiable translation of the Hebrew and Greek. This is for reasons fully covered on another thread. I can't repeat all that info here.
 
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renniks

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Not what I said the first time around? Then you misunderstood me. I have NEVER believed or stated that Jesus Himself directly performed this miracle. I've always credited it to the Third Person.

BTW, I don't recall that Scripture specifically says "multiplied" and, even if it does, it's still a matter of interpretation as to precisely how the Third Person performed the miracle. Given that creation ex nihilo is a logically incoherent gibberish, the most cogent interpretation of the text is that Yahweh manipulated matter.
Why is it gibberish? Obviously God can create anyway he wants to. So he may have manipulated what was available. Why does the how even matter?
 
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renniks

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You don't seem to get me. I don't believe in anything supernatural, immaterial/spiritual, magical.

I only believe in eternal matter, which has free will by the way. None of it will ever cease to exist. Matter is neither created nor destroyed.
The spirit exists. The spirit realm isn't far off. How can God hear Silent prayers and answer them if matter is already exists?
 
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JAL

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Why is it gibberish? Obviously God can create anyway he wants to. So he may have manipulated what was available. Why does the how even matter?
Can God make 2 + 2 = 5? Some claims are gibberish claims. Creation ex nihilo is one of them. It's certainly an extraordinary claim, just like the claim, "Use the force Luke!"
Extraordinary claims require extraordinarily compelling evidence, and you don't have any, neither biblical nor philosophical.

Ever hear of Occam's Razor? It's a sound principle of reasoning dictating that the simplest possible explanation is usually the correct one - don't further embellish it with possible fairlytales.
 
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JAL

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The spirit exists. The spirit realm isn't far off. How can God hear Silent prayers and answer them if matter is already exists?
There is no "spirit" realm. Angels are material beings. Example:

"There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow." (Mat 28).

Only tangible hands, and a tangible body, could roll back a stone, sit on it, and be garbed in white clothing.

How can God hear Silent prayers and answer them if matter is already exists?
Yahweh knows our thoughts because He listens to our cerebral impulses (brain waves) - electrochemical streams - just like you and I listen to ordinary sound waves.
 
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JAL

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The spirit exists.
Again, the English term "spirit" is never a valid translation of ruach/pneuma meaning physical breath/wind. Example:

"He [physically] breathed on them, and said, 'Receive the Holy [Breath]'" (Jn 20:22).
 
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Der Alte

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Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mark 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
 
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renniks

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Can God make 2 + 2 = 5? Some claims are gibberish claims. Creation ex nihilo is one of them. It's certainly an extraordinary claim, just like the claim, "Use the force Luke!"
Extraordinary claims require extraordinarily compelling evidence, and you don't have any, neither biblical nor philosophical.

Ever hear of Occam's Razor? It's a sound principle of reasoning dictating that the simplest possible explanation is usually the correct one - don't further embellish it with possible fairlytales.
You have a tiny god.
 
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