Who are they who are condemned already ?

FreeGrace2 · May 25, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear FreeGrace2,

You said:
The Bible says clearly that Christ's death DID pay that debt. And it's a debt of SIN, not a debt of DEATH, as you suppose. The RESULT of the sin debt is death. That's why Christ died on our behalf. That is HOW He paid the debt that we owed.

But now that He died in our place, there is NO MORE DEBT. Now God is free to offer salvation to mankind.

Where are your scriptures? There are none.

So you say. I ask, where are YOUR verses that say what you claim?

Christ did not die so that we would not have to die.

The Bible refers to the "second death". By Christ's death, no one has to die spiritually. All of us will die physically. So says Heb 9:27.

Christ died to purchase our debt to sin which is DEATH and to earn the keys to death and hell so that we could be resurrected from DEATH.

Now you're making sense.

We must be "born again" and for our new birth to occur, our old spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition must die.

OK, verse please. Since you seem to not know, our "carnally minded condition" is already death. Spiritual death.

This is not a complex principle to understand.

I don't think so. I'm not sure about you.

Since Christ's “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

Ooh, a red flag alert! Sounds like "spiritualizing" here. Those who do that are just finding a way to make up whatever they want.

Jesus spoke literally most of the time.

Our "corruptible seed" is destroyed by the Sword (Word of God) and from this destruction, we are born again with an incorruptible seed and this also happens by the Word of God just as Mat 26:52 states.

Nope. Our "corruptible seed" refers to our physical bodies. At physical death, the soul leaves the body, and that's when our "corruptible seed" is destroyed.

I could go on and on with more verses but if you don't believe these verses that I have presented to you, you won't believe any others.

It isn't any verses that I don't believe, it's your spiritualizing of them that I don't believe. There's a difference.

You said:

There is nothing in the list of verses (6) that says that man cannot make a free choice.

Maybe you misunderstand what free will is. It is nothing but opportunity. An opportunity to make a free choice between available options (choices).

When the gospel is presented, that creates a choice. To believe or not to believe.

The verses I presented all say that mankind does not have a free will.

Not ANY of them say that. You are merely "reading into" the verses what you want them to say. That is eisegesis.

"Opportunity" is NOT free will.

I didn't say that. I said free will is the opportunity to make a choice between available options. Is this clear, or do I need to explain further?

We all have a "will" and can make choices BUT the choices we make are CAUSED by God.

Every sin is a choice. So you just now charged God with causing sin. That is blasphemy.

James 1-
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.

I think you may be deceived.

Opportunity has nothing to do with it.

So says you. Were Adam and the woman given an opportunity to eat the forbidden fruit? Or did God CAUSE them to eat of it?

You said:
The Bible teaches quite the opposite.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It would be weird to offer a gift that cannot be refused. If any gift cannot be refused, then it isn't really a gift, but just a forced item on an unwilling person.

God does not operate that way.

This is correct. And is why Christ was judged on our behalf.

Here is the proper translation of that verse:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that brings salvation to all people.

I'm not sure where you found any translation that says "offers". It is not in the original text.

OK, let's try to clear this up. When God's grace brings salvation, to whom does He bring it to? "all people", "everyone", "all".

So, they mean the same thing. If I bring something to give to someone, that means I am offering it to someone.

And just as I have been saying, Christ BRINGS salvation to "all people". We do not ask Him to bring it. If we did, our carnally minded condition would never ask and no one would be saved.

And everyone, all people have the opportunity to receive the gift.

Why do you say that if a gift cannot be refused, it is no longer a gift???

When a gift is refused, the person doesn't have it.

You said:
No, the judgment was on ALL of humanity when Jesus Christ died on the cross for the whole world. btw, election isn't about salvation, but about service.

God chooses for service, including Judas, per John 6:70,71. And Judas was never saved.

In this present age, only the ELECT will be saved.

And where is YOUR verse to support all that you claim?

Eph 1:4 says "God chose us in Him from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless". So, who are the us? Believers. Paul specifically defines "us" that way in v.19- "us who believe". And the purpose of God choosing believers is "to be holy and blameless", which is service.

We can't serve God UNLESS we are holy and blameless.

They are chosen from the foundation of the world.

Right. This speaks to when God made the choice to choose believers to serve Him.

Where does your definition of "election" come from?

Straight from the Bible. EVERY example of those described as "elect" were chosen for service, and NOT salvation.

Jesus Christ, the ELECT ONE. Was He chosen for salvation? No.
Nation of Israel, God's chosen nation. Was the whole nation saved? No. The nation of Israel was chosen to serve God, by protecting His Word.
Angels. 1 Tim 5:21 And Heb 1:14 tells us what His angels do: serving those who inherit salvation.
NT believers. Eph 1:4
Judas. John 6:70,71 He was chosen as the betrayer.

Now, it's your turn. Please quote any verse that plainly teaches that God chooses unilaterally and unconditionally to save anyone.

Election is what God calls His choice on who will be saved as a Firstfruits in this present age.

I need a verse before I will believe this.

FaithWillDo · May 25, 2021

TedT said:
Well Joe,

how about: Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee. If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.

We must be careful to not mix up knowing and knowing about as they are two different things. For example, Christians know Jesus, demons know about Jesus. This difference is also brought out in Matthew 25:12 where Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not... to the five foolish virgins. He obviously knew all about them, He just did not know them. Mighty big difference! Well this also means that there is a mighty big difference between GOD knowing Jeremiah and GOD knowing about Jeremiah.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible sums it up well:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,.... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; implying a personal relationship with not knowledge about as per:
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Obviously He knew all about them but He did not have a personal relationship with them as GOD suggests HE had with Jeremiah.

Since I believe that GOD knows about this difference then when GOD says to me that HE knew Jeremiah before his conception, I believe that GOD is sort of telling me that Jeremiah existed before his conception. If GOD was not bearing witness to Jeremiah's pre-conception existence in this verse, would you please tell me what HE was revealing? Was it HIS omniscience, that is, was HE telling Jeremiah that HE knew all about him before HE made him in the womb, that is, before he was created?

But Jeremiah needed no revelation of GOD's omniscience. Jeremiah was a priest. He was trained in the Scriptures and the Jews knew about GOD's omniscience long before his time. Well, anything but his pre-conception existence eh!!!

Let me ask you this. In your opinion, just what would GOD have to say to Jeremiah to reveal that he existed before he was made in the womb? What would HE have to say so that Jeremiah could put it in the Book in such a way that it would not give away any secrets for 2600 years?

So, is all this eisegesis or exegesis, hmmm?

Dear TedT,
Exegesis is a myth and does not exist in this world. No one can put aside their bias and world view (paradigm) when trying to understand scripture. Mankind is carnally minded and can only understand God from this carnally minded point of view. To understand God and scripture, a person must have the mind of Christ via God's Spirit. When a person has the mind of Christ, their paradigm changes and so does the meaning of scripture. Consider the meaning of "swords" in Matt 26:52. The carnal mind wants to understand a sword as a physical object. But with God, He uses the physical to explain the spiritual. With God, Swords represent the Word of God and the Word of God is Christ.

In other words:
1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

No amount of "exegesis" can help a spiritually blind person see. Christ is the great healer and He is the only one who can heal mankind's blindness. We CANNOT heal ourselves and no amount of Exegesis can help one see the truth of God.

Do you understand the verses you quoted and their significance?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you who work lawlessness!’

To understand what Christ is really teaching here requires a person to have "eyes that can see" and a great deal of true scriptural knowledge. These verses apply:

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

In the verses from Matthew, for Christ to "know" them, His meaning of "know" is from a relationship point of view. Christ is telling them that He does not have a relationship with them even though they call Him "Lord". Why? Because they "work lawlessness". In other words, our relationship with Christ is only achieved by faith and not by our "works". When we try to make ourselves worthy of our relationship with Christ by our own works (even taking credit for making the "right" choice to accept Him as Lord), He will reject us and we will remain under Law. The believers to whom Christ is speaking are "called out" Christians commonly called the "church". They have ONLY received the Early Rain of the Spirit and remain spiritually blind and under the Law. How do I know this? Because the truth of scripture is taught "line upon line, here a little and there a little". Context is not even very important. Because this is the way truth is taught in scripture, exegesis is of no help.

Here are a few sections of scripture that explain why I know these believers have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit and why I know they are spiritually blind and remain under the Law:

1). I know they are blind because of:

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.

2). I know that they remain under the Law because of:

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife. All who are “in Adam” will be “called” to be God’s wife.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak, spiritually blind & carnal. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth, it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts. It is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out” by Christ to be restored to the Father by faith. However, Satan quickly comes to us and deceives us because we remain spiritually blind. Because of his deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works. This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law can no longer accuse us. After this change from Law to faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

As James said, it takes the Early and Latter Rain before we are saved:

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.

Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age. They are the only ones who are receiving the Early and Latter Rain and finding salvation.

As I said, Exegesis does not work.

Joe

Clare73 · May 25, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The word condemned here krinó means:

I judge, whether in a law-court or privately: sometimes with cognate nouns emphasizing the notion of the verb, (b) I decide, I think (it) good.

Here in this context the word means :

used specifically of the act of condemning and decreeing (or inflicting) penalty on one !

Its the decreed penalty of God against those ones because of their sins.

Now, who are they that have a penalty of any kind lodged against them by God ?

Its all for whom Christ did not die. You see, all for whom He did die, He took their penalty and condemnation upon Himself, this is so much the Truth that those whom He died for are born into this world as sinners and enemies, already reconciled to God Rom 5:10, already declared righteous Rom 5:19, so it cannot be anyone Christ died for without it being a miscarrying of Divine Justice ! Everyone Christ died for, for them He hath obtained for them Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The word redemption here is the greek word lutrósis and means:

(in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release.

the payment of the full ransom-price to free a slave – particularly the redemption of an individual.

Its a having paid a full ransom price,

redemption from the penalty of sin:

So all for whom Christ died, even though they are as other men and women born by nature into the world as filthy sinners, they are nevertheless free from any condemnation from God, and redeemed from any and all penalties due to any and all sin and wrongdoing against God, so much so, that they are born into this World already Reconciled to Him through Christ's Death Rom 5:10 !

Actually, they are not reconciled until they are born again of the Holy Spirit, and believe on and trust in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty, all of which is guaranteed by Christ's death for them.

So in conclusion, Who are they who are condemned already in Jn 3:18 ? Its simple, anyone for whom Christ did not die !

All mankind (Romans 5:18) from birth (Ephesians 2:3), until one is born again of the Holy Spirit.

FreeGrace2 · May 25, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear TedT,
Exegesis is a myth and does not exist in this world.

This statement is the myth. Of course it exists. It just takes objectivity and an open mind.

So, if those are in short supply, then of course, eisegesis will rule the day.

There are lexicons, etc, with which to find out the meaning of words, and websites that can show every use of the specific word everywhere else.

No one can put aside their bias and world view (paradigm) when trying to understand scripture.

If that depressing idea were true, then we should just all give up.

James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.

Oh oh, here comes "spiritualizing". Those who spiritualize get to say whatever they want about verses and the "spiritualizing" can neither be proven or refuted.

As I said, Exegesis does not work.

Like I said, that statement is a myth.

FaithWillDo · May 25, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
So you say. I ask, where are YOUR verses that say what you claim?

Exegesis

Now you're making sense.

OK, verse please. Since you seem to not know, our "carnally minded condition" is already death. Spiritual death.

I don't think so. I'm not sure about you.

Ooh, a red flag alert! Sounds like "spiritualizing" here. Those who do that are just finding a way to make up whatever they want.

Jesus spoke literally most of the time.

Nope. Our "corruptible seed" refers to our physical bodies. At physical death, the soul leaves the body, and that's when our "corruptible seed" is destroyed.

It isn't any verses that I don't believe, it's your spiritualizing of them that I don't believe. There's a difference.

Not ANY of them say that. You are merely "reading into" the verses what you want them to say. That is eisegesis.

I didn't say that. I said free will is the opportunity to make a choice between available options. Is this clear, or do I need to explain further?

Every sin is a choice. So you just now charged God with causing sin. That is blasphemy.

James 1-
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.

I think you may be deceived.

So says you. Were Adam and the woman given an opportunity to eat the forbidden fruit? Or did God CAUSE them to eat of it?

OK, let's try to clear this up. When God's grace brings salvation, to whom does He bring it to? "all people", "everyone", "all".

So, they mean the same thing. If I bring something to give to someone, that means I am offering it to someone.

And everyone, all people have the opportunity to receive the gift.

When a gift is refused, the person doesn't have it.

And where is YOUR verse to support all that you claim?

Eph 1:4 says "God chose us in Him from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless". So, who are the us? Believers. Paul specifically defines "us" that way in v.19- "us who believe". And the purpose of God choosing believers is "to be holy and blameless", which is service.

We can't serve God UNLESS we are holy and blameless.

Right. This speaks to when God made the choice to choose believers to serve Him.

Straight from the Bible. EVERY example of those described as "elect" were chosen for service, and NOT salvation.

Jesus Christ, the ELECT ONE. Was He chosen for salvation? No.
Nation of Israel, God's chosen nation. Was the whole nation saved? No. The nation of Israel was chosen to serve God, by protecting His Word.
Angels. 1 Tim 5:21 And Heb 1:14 tells us what His angels do: serving those who inherit salvation.
NT believers. Eph 1:4
Judas. John 6:70,71 He was chosen as the betrayer.

Now, it's your turn. Please quote any verse that plainly teaches that God chooses unilaterally and unconditionally to save anyone.

I need a verse before I will believe this.

Dear FreeGrace2,

You said:
The Bible refers to the "second death". By Christ's death, no one has to die spiritually. All of us will die physically. So says Heb 9:27.

The penalty of sin is death, not just a physical death but also a spiritual death. Christ made us spiritually flawed which produced our carnal nature within us. Because of our carnal nature, we sin. Unless our flawed spiritual condition is destroyed, we will go on sinning even after we are resurrected from our physical death. Our flawed spiritual condition must be destroyed, too. But because of God's Grace and Christ's work on the cross, Christ earned the right to give us a new birth with HIS perfect spiritual makeup (Holy Spirit). Only then will be never sin again and therefore, never die again. Our relationship with the Father is restored.

As for the "second death", it is referring to the destruction of the Old Man of those who are cast into the Lake of Fire in the final age. The "first death", though it is not called by that name in scripture, is referring to the Firstfruits in this age. They are "first" to have their Old Man destroyed through judgment. Because their Old Man has already been destroyed, the "second death" of the Lake of Fire does not apply to them. It only applies to the lost of the final age.

You said:
OK, verse please. Since you seem to not know, our "carnally minded condition" is already death. Spiritual death.

Here are four:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The old vessel is destroyed in order for the new vessel to be made.

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Christ is the stone. We fall on the stone after we receive the Early Rain and are broken (lose our relationship with Christ, He no longer knows us). But when the Latter Rain comes, the stone grind us to powder and our flawed spiritual condition is destroyed.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

We are the seed of wheat. We must die in order to be "born again" and produce spiritual fruit. It takes the Early and Latter Rain as James said.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

The broad way that leads to destruction is the destruction of our flawed spiritual condition. It is broad because all mankind must experience it. We cannot be saved otherwise.

You said:
Ooh, a red flag alert! Sounds like "spiritualizing" here. Those who do that are just finding a way to make up whatever they want.

Jesus spoke literally most of the time.

Christ's words are "spirit". To understand spiritual words, one must have spiritual understanding. Also, Jesus NEVER taught in a literal fashion. He taught as this verse prophesied He would:

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Also, parables are not literal and He ONLY taught in parables. But since He is the Word of God, many of the things He did, also taught a spiritual message.

Matt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

For this reason, those who remain spiritual blind (those having only the Early Rain) cannot understand the truth of scripture and find the knowledge of God. This spiritually blind condition manifests itself in the world by the numerous (around 2000) different church denominations.

You said:
Nope. Our "corruptible seed" refers to our physical bodies. At physical death, the soul leaves the body, and that's when our "corruptible seed" is destroyed.

Mankind's sin problem comes from our flawed spiritual condition. Christ came in a physical body and never sinned. Why? Because He was spiritually perfect. Our physical bodies are not the problem that must be corrected. I can't stress this enough!

You said:
I didn't say that. I said free will is the opportunity to make a choice between available options. Is this clear, or do I need to explain further?

It is clear and it is also clearly unscriptural. Mankind has no ability to seek or understand God in our carnal state. Why don't you believe the verses that teach this concept? We have no ability to "choose" Christ as we are created. Something has to change BEFORE we will "choose" Him. Scripture says that we can ONLY call Jesus Lord if we have the Holy Spirit. Did you call Him Lord from your flawed and carnally minded condition OR did Christ come to you and give you the Spirit FIRST so that you called Him Lord? Scripture teaches the latter.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Why don't you believe these verses? Does your beliefs come from some place other than scripture? Like maybe the traditions of man?

You said:
Every sin is a choice. So you just now charged God with causing sin. That is blasphemy.

God purposely created us in such a way that it is easy and common for mankind to sin. To believe He made a mistake in our creation is blasphemy. God never makes mistakes. God is responsible for our sin problem and because He is, He sent Christ to make us into a new creature who does not sin. But since the knowledge of "good and evil" is required by God to be one of His children, it was necessary to make us "flawed" so that we would sin and experience evil.

Have you never read these verses:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Also, God does not tempt man. He made Satan do to it. Satan was created for this purpose:

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

You said:
So says you. Were Adam and the woman given an opportunity to eat the forbidden fruit? Or did God CAUSE them to eat of it?

Yes, God gave Adam and Eve the opportunity to eat or not eat the forbidden fruit. But it was God's plan for them to eat it and sin. God even sent Satan to tempt them. And He knew that in their created spiritually flawed condition, they would become carnally minded. And becoming carnally minded happened BEFORE they sinned and was the reason they sinned. Sin did not cause them to become carnally minded.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve displayed her carnal condition before she sinned and could make no other choice. She displayed the Lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and pride of life before she made her decision to sin. If she could have chosen not to sin, then some people could be saved by trying to follow the Law. But of course, that is not possible in our carnally minded condition. The Law was given to make mankind aware of our spiritually flawed condition that causes us to sin and to lead us to Christ. Christ will destroy this flawed spiritual condition and make us into a new creature with a perfect spiritual condition just as Christ has. Then God will have many new children who know good and evil, just has He knows.

I will continue my response in a second post.

Joe

Clare73 · May 25, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
In your comments to another poster:
Then you posted these:

The Bible says clearly that Christ's death DID pay that debt. And it's a debt of SIN, not a debt of DEATH, as you suppose. The RESULT of the sin debt is death. That's why Christ died on our behalf. That is HOW He paid the debt that we owed.
But now that He died in our place, there is NO MORE DEBT. Now God is free to offer salvation to mankind.

There is nothing in the list of verses (6) that says that man cannot make a free choice.
Maybe you misunderstand what free will is. It is nothing but opportunity. An opportunity to make a free choice between available options (choices).
When the gospel is presented, that creates a choice. To believe or not to believe.
The Bible teaches quite the opposite.

There is one more important factor to add to the equation, which makes free will not the issue.

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

It's not about free will, it's about ability.

The issue is not man's free will, it is man's disposition--his preferences, likes, which govern the will.
God works in the disposition of men giving them to like the things of God, which their wills then freely and willingly choose.
God uses man's will to bring men to himself, he does not violate it.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It would be weird to offer a gift that cannot be refused. If any gift cannot be refused, then it isn't really a gift, but just a forced item on an unwilling person.
God does not operate that way.
This is correct. And is why Christ was judged on our behalf.
No, the judgment was on ALL of humanity when Jesus Christ died on the cross for the whole world.

btw, election isn't about salvation, but about service.

Not according to the NT.

In the context of salvation (Romans 11:11), Paul refers to the elect (Romans 11:7),
who are elected to adoption as sons of God through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5),
wherein through this election we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 5:1-7), made heirs to God (Ephesians 1:11) and to eternal glory (Romans 9:23),
the reasons for which we were chosen (elected).

There should now be no further misrepresentation by you regarding election to salvation.

God chooses for service, including Judas, per John 6:70,71. And Judas was never saved.

FaithWillDo · May 25, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
So you say. I ask, where are YOUR verses that say what you claim?

The Bible refers to the "second death". By Christ's death, no one has to die spiritually. All of us will die physically. So says Heb 9:27.

Now you're making sense.

OK, verse please. Since you seem to not know, our "carnally minded condition" is already death. Spiritual death.

I don't think so. I'm not sure about you.

Ooh, a red flag alert! Sounds like "spiritualizing" here. Those who do that are just finding a way to make up whatever they want.

Jesus spoke literally most of the time.

Nope. Our "corruptible seed" refers to our physical bodies. At physical death, the soul leaves the body, and that's when our "corruptible seed" is destroyed.

It isn't any verses that I don't believe, it's your spiritualizing of them that I don't believe. There's a difference.

Not ANY of them say that. You are merely "reading into" the verses what you want them to say. That is eisegesis.

I didn't say that. I said free will is the opportunity to make a choice between available options. Is this clear, or do I need to explain further?

Every sin is a choice. So you just now charged God with causing sin. That is blasphemy.

James 1-
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.

I think you may be deceived.

So says you. Were Adam and the woman given an opportunity to eat the forbidden fruit? Or did God CAUSE them to eat of it?

OK, let's try to clear this up. When God's grace brings salvation, to whom does He bring it to? "all people", "everyone", "all".

So, they mean the same thing. If I bring something to give to someone, that means I am offering it to someone.

And everyone, all people have the opportunity to receive the gift.

When a gift is refused, the person doesn't have it.

And where is YOUR verse to support all that you claim?

Eph 1:4 says "God chose us in Him from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless". So, who are the us? Believers. Paul specifically defines "us" that way in v.19- "us who believe". And the purpose of God choosing believers is "to be holy and blameless", which is service.

We can't serve God UNLESS we are holy and blameless.

Right. This speaks to when God made the choice to choose believers to serve Him.

Straight from the Bible. EVERY example of those described as "elect" were chosen for service, and NOT salvation.

Jesus Christ, the ELECT ONE. Was He chosen for salvation? No.
Nation of Israel, God's chosen nation. Was the whole nation saved? No. The nation of Israel was chosen to serve God, by protecting His Word.
Angels. 1 Tim 5:21 And Heb 1:14 tells us what His angels do: serving those who inherit salvation.
NT believers. Eph 1:4
Judas. John 6:70,71 He was chosen as the betrayer.

Now, it's your turn. Please quote any verse that plainly teaches that God chooses unilaterally and unconditionally to save anyone.

I need a verse before I will believe this.

Dear FreeGrace2,

Continued...

You said:
OK, let's try to clear this up. When God's grace brings salvation, to whom does He bring it to? "all people", "everyone", "all".

So, they mean the same thing. If I bring something to give to someone, that means I am offering it to someone.

And everyone, all people have the opportunity to receive the gift.

When a gift is refused, the person doesn't have it.

This thinking comes from your world view which is produced by your carnal nature. There are no scriptures that teach what you are saying. Christ does not "offer" us a choice on salvation. He came to save us and that is what He will do. He knows from our carnally minded condition that it is not within mankind to "choose" Him. We won't even seek God nor can we understand Him. The only way Christ can save us is to come to us and give us the Holy Spirit. Once we have the Holy Spirit, we call Him "Lord". Our salvation is 100% His work and His work is spiritual (happens within us). We are saved because it is His "will" for it to happen, our salvation does not come from our "will".

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There is no sense in restating this over and over to you if you have no ability to accept it.

You said:
Eph 1:4 says "God chose us in Him from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless". So, who are the us? Believers. Paul specifically defines "us" that way in v.19- "us who believe". And the purpose of God choosing believers is "to be holy and blameless", which is service.

The "us" Paul is referring to are the Elect, the Firstfruits, the heirs, the overcomers, etc. They are saved and the reason they are saved is because they were chosen. Christ made them into a vessel of honor not because of any "choice" they made but only because it suited God's purposes.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul is speaking about those who are saved in this age. And because they are saved, they will be witnesses for Christ. They were not chosen to be "witnesses" because they made the right choice to accept Christ. They were chosen to be saved and to be witnesses. Where is the free will "choice" you claim to have made in the verse above??? 100% of the work of our salvation is from Christ. He is the one who chooses when He will come to His Elect and save them. Scripture says that we are "nothing" and that He will do as He pleases:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

You said:
Straight from the Bible. EVERY example of those described as "elect" were chosen for service, and NOT salvation.

Everyone who is saved in this present age is one of God's chosen Elect. He chose them, called them, justified them and glorified them. It was all His work.

You said:
Nation of Israel, God's chosen nation. Was the whole nation saved? No. The nation of Israel was chosen to serve God, by protecting His Word.

None of the nation of Israel is saved. It was not possible with them being under the Law. John the Baptist is stated to be the greatest "born of women" but even the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he. John the Baptist was not saved. Paul said this:

Heb 11:38-40 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in the deserts, and in the mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

None of the Old Testament saints are saved yet. They have not received the Holy Spirit nor have they been judged. But with the help of God's Elect in the final age, they will be made perfect.

You said:
Now, it's your turn. Please quote any verse that plainly teaches that God chooses unilaterally and unconditionally to save anyone.

Here are several verses:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Most people try to say that Christ only "desires" to save all men but even if that was the correct translation (which it is not), then mankind's salvation would still be assured:

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Here are more:

Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Restated by Paul:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

More:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

And more:

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. (Darby)

Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Col 1:16-20 For by him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, BY HIM TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.

Christ is the Savior of all men but He is "specially" the Savior of the Elect because they will receive the blessings of being the "heir" and the firstfruits of His harvest.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Who can this leave out?

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive "in Christ". Then the end comes and God will be "all in all". How can God be "all in all" if most of His creation are being tormented in literal fire for all eternity for no redeeming or loving purpose?

Joe

FreeGrace2 · May 25, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear FreeGrace2,

You said:
The Bible refers to the "second death". By Christ's death, no one has to die spiritually. All of us will die physically. So says Heb 9:27.

The penalty of sin is death, not just a physical death but also a spiritual death.

Christ made us spiritually flawed which produced our carnal nature within us.

Please quote any verse that says "Christ made us spiritually flawed". That's pretty close to blasphemy. Aren't you aware of James 1?

Do you really believe that God causes sin? Seems so.

Because of our carnal nature, we sin. Unless our flawed spiritual condition

is destroyed, we will go on sinning even after we are resurrected from our physical death. Our flawed spiritual condition must be destroyed, too. But because of God's Grace and Christ's work on the cross, Christ earned the right to give us a new birth with HIS perfect spiritual makeup (Holy Spirit). Only then will be never sin again and therefore, never die again. Our relationship with the Father is restored.

I already refuted all this.

You said:
OK, verse please. Since you seem to not know, our "carnally minded condition" is already death. Spiritual death.

Here are four:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The old vessel is destroyed in order for the new vessel to be made.

The verse says NOTHING about "the old vessel was destroyed". What is the context of the verse anyway?

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Christ is the stone.

I suppose anyone can claim nearly anything about this verse.

[QUOTE]John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

We are the seed of wheat. We must die in order to be "born again" and produce spiritual fruit. It takes the Early and Latter Rain as James said.[/QUOTE]
Again, spiritualizing verses allows one to say almost anything which can't be either proven or refuted.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

The broad way that leads to destruction is the destruction of our flawed spiritual condition. It is broad because all mankind must experience it. We cannot be saved otherwise.

Let's get real. 7:13 is about the fact that there are many ways to end up in hell but only 1 way to heaven. Real simple.

You said:

Ooh, a red flag alert! Sounds like "spiritualizing" here. Those who do that are just finding a way to make up whatever they want.

Jesus spoke literally most of the time.

Christ's words are "spirit".

And you have taken the liberTy to "spiritualize" them.

To understand spiritual words, one must have spiritual understanding.

There's a huge difference between spiritual understanding and spiritualizing.

Also, parables are not literal and He ONLY taught in parables.

Do you know WHY He spoke in parables? Even His own disciples didn't understand them, and needed to have them explained to them.

Matt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

And yet, He still had to explain the parables to them.

But nice example of cherry picking here.

You said:

Nope. Our "corruptible seed" refers to our physical bodies. At physical death, the soul leaves the body, and that's when our "corruptible seed" is destroyed.

Mankind's sin problem comes from our flawed spiritual condition.

Do you understand where that condition came from?

Christ came in a physical body and never sinned. Why? Because He was spiritually perfect.

He was not only spiritually but physically perfect.

It seems you are not aware of WHY Jesus was born of a virgin.

Our physical bodies are not the problem that must be corrected. I can't stress this enough!

So the Bible calls our bodies "bodies of corruption". Why? For nothing?

You said:

I didn't say that. I said free will is the opportunity to make a choice between available options. Is this clear, or do I need to explain further?

It is clear and it is also clearly unscriptural.

No. Rather, it is just something you don't believe. It is Scriptural. It's OBVIOUS.

Titus 2:11 tells us that God's grace brings salvation. No verse says God forces Himself on anyone, or forces salvation. It's a choice.

Mankind has no ability to seek or understand God in our carnal state.

Could you tell that to Cornelius?

Acts 10-
1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment.
2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

Yet, this is what Cornelius told Peter what the angel told him:

Acts 11-
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

So, please explain how an UNSAVED Gentile was devout, feared God and gave generously to those in need, oh, and prayed to God regularly.

Why don't you believe the verses that teach this concept?

I haven't found any verses that teach what you claim. I would believe them if they existed.

We have no ability to "choose" Christ as we are created.

Why can't you point to any verse that actually teaches this opinion? The issue isn't "choosing" here, but simply trusting, which is what "belief" is.

Something has to change BEFORE we will "choose" Him.

Nope. Man was born able to understand the gospel. That's why we have Titus 2:11.

And you have no verses to the contrary.

Scripture says that we can ONLY call Jesus Lord if we have the Holy Spirit.

This has nothing to do with your calvinist doctrine of unconditional election.

Did you call Him Lord from your flawed and carnally minded condition OR did Christ come to you and give you the Spirit FIRST so that you called Him Lord? Scripture teaches the latter.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Why don't you believe these verses?[/QUOTE]
Of course I believe them. I don't believe your spin on them.

Speaking of calling Jesus "Lord", maybe you just aren't aware of 1 Peter 3:15.

But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Note that Peter was writing to "the elect"; saved people. And he admonishes them to sanctify Christ AS LORD.

So it should be obvious that believers are commanded to make Christ Lord.

Does your beliefs come from some place other than scripture? Like maybe the traditions of man?

From Scripture. Unlike your calvinist leanings. Those are the traditions of man.

You said:

Every sin is a choice. So you just now charged God with causing sin. That is blasphemy.

God purposely created us in such a way that it is easy and common for mankind to sin.

Just your own opinion. You have NO evidence from Scripture. God created man and called His creation "good". But you have orther ideas, apparently.

Then God set up just one prohibition for Adam and the woman. Of course He knew they would fail but to claim God "purposely created us so it's easy to sin" is just over the top. This isn't even close to Scripture, sadly.

To believe He made a mistake in our creation is blasphemy.

To say what you just did is blasphemy.

God never makes mistakes.

Correct.

God is responsible for our sin problem

This couldn't be more in error. No, we are. That's why Christ died for OUR sins.

We have the problem. And we are responsible. I think you are very confused.

Have you never read these verses:

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Of course. And I believe them and reject your opinion about them.

Also, God does not tempt man. He made Satan do to it.

OK, more unsubstantiated opinion. You have no evidence from Scripture to support your opinions.

Satan was created for this purpose:

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

What you completely miss is that the verses say that God created the angel who became Satan. Neither verse says that God created sin or a sinning angel.

You said:
So says you. Were Adam and the woman given an opportunity to eat the forbidden fruit? Or did God CAUSE them to eat of it?

Yes, God gave Adam and Eve the opportunity to eat or not eat the forbidden fruit. But it was God's plan for them to eat it and sin.

Again what you DON'T have is any verse that says what you claim.

God even sent Satan to tempt them.

Another blatantly unbiblical claim.

And He knew that in their created spiritually flawed condition, they would become carnally minded.

Unbelievable. No, God didn't create anyone "spiritually flawed". Adam and the woman died spiritually when THEY chose to rebel.

I will continue my response in a second post
Joe

<sigh>

FreeGrace2 · May 25, 2021

I said:
btw, election isn't about salvation, but about service.

Clare73 said:
Not according to the NT.

In the context of salvation (Romans 11:11), Paul refers to the elect (Romans 11:7),
who are elected to adoption as sons of God through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5),
wherein through this election we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 5:1-7), made heirs to God (Ephesians 1:11) and to eternal glory (Romans 9:23),
the reasons for which we were chosen (elected).

None of these verses show that salvation is by election.

Please address the examples I cited and show me how any of them were elected to salvation.

There should now be no further misrepresentation by you regarding election to salvation.

lol. Unless you can prove your own theory that election is to salvation, I'll just keep defending the truth of Scripture.

FreeGrace2 · May 25, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear FreeGrace2,
Continued...

You said:
OK, let's try to clear this up. When God's grace brings salvation, to whom does He bring it to? "all people", "everyone", "all".

So, they mean the same thing. If I bring something to give to someone, that means I am offering it to someone.

And everyone, all people have the opportunity to receive the gift.

When a gift is refused, the person doesn't have it.

This thinking comes from your world view which is produced by your carnal nature.

You easily make a lot of claims. But you haven't backed up any of them. Can you?

Take my points above and prove me wrong if you disagree with them.

in the meantime, I'll take a pass on the rest of your post. You don't interact with anything. Just more and more opinions without any clear Scripture to back up the opinions.

There are no scriptures that teach what you are saying.

That's what I've been telling you. I reject the claims of calvinism because they are not found in Scripture.

Clare73 · May 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
In the context of salvation (Romans 11:11), Paul refers to the elect (Romans 11:7),
who are elected to adoption as sons of God through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5),
wherein through this election we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 5:1-7), made heirs to God (Ephesians 1:11) and to eternal glory (Romans 9:23),the reasons for which we were chosen (elected).
Election to sons of God is election to salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:
None of these verses show that salvation is by election.

I guess I gave you too much credit.

Please address the examples I cited and

show me how any of them were elected to salvation.

They weren't. Who said they were?

FaithWillDo · May 25, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
This statement is the myth. Of course it exists. It just takes objectivity and an open mind.

So, if those are in short supply, then of course, eisegesis will rule the day.

There are lexicons, etc, with which to find out the meaning of words, and websites that can show every use of the specific word everywhere else.

If that depressing idea were true, then we should just all give up.

Oh oh, here comes "spiritualizing". Those who spiritualize get to say whatever they want about verses and the "spiritualizing" can neither be proven or refuted.

Like I said, that statement is a myth.

Dear FreeGrace2,

You said:
If that depressing idea were true, then we should just all give up.

We are all born spiritually blind and remain so until we receive the Latter Rain. Our only hope is for Christ to "come again" to us and heal us. Scripture says that He is the giver of good gifts. Pray for Him to come again to you and give you those good gifts. Christ is our only hope to know God and be saved. You need to put aside your false belief that you contribute to your own salvation. You have no such power. Mankind is utterly carnal, sinful and blind. In that condition, we cannot know or seek God.

Here is Paul's advice:

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Why fear and trembling? Paul answers that in the next verse:

13 BECAUSE it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Christ is the one who decides if you are going to be saved now or later. We do not get to decided nor do we even get to know in advance if we are "chosen" or not. If you think that is "depressing" then you need to pray for more faith to trust God's plan for you. He loves you more than you can know at this time and He will do everything He needs to do to save you. However, we must wait on the Lord to do His work in us.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

This verse above is talking about conversion. We must be "killed with the sword" in order to be "born again". Christ's plan of saving mankind takes two ages of time which is quite a long time. This is the patience of the saints. But in the end, God will be "all in all". What a glorious future all of mankind has thanks to the love and work of Christ!

You said:
Oh oh, here comes "spiritualizing". Those who spiritualize get to say whatever they want about verses and the "spiritualizing" can neither be proven or refuted.

We are told by Paul to compare spiritual words with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can learn the meaning of those words. My example of the "sword" being a symbol for the Word of God is one of the easiest to understand. But since all of Christ's words are spirit, all of His teachings (along with the other NT writers) are in this same spiritual language. Scripture is written this way to HIDE its meaning from all but those Christ has chosen. I have quoted those verses before so I won't present them again.

Joe

FaithWillDo · May 25, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
You easily make a lot of claims. But you haven't backed up any of them. Can you?

Take my points above and prove me wrong if you disagree with them.

in the meantime, I'll take a pass on the rest of your post. You don't interact with anything. Just more and more opinions without any clear Scripture to back up the opinions.

That's what I've been telling you. I reject the claims of calvinism because they are not found in Scripture.

Dear FreeGrace2,
I have presented many, many verses that support my statements. You just won't accept them. Also, what I believe is not Calvinism by any stretch of the imagination. If you think they are, then you either have not carefully read my posts or you are not very familiar with Calvinism. Calvinism is a just another false belief system.
Joe

FreeGrace2 · May 25, 2021

I said:
"Please address the examples I cited and
show me how any of them were elected to salvation."

Clare73 said:
They weren't. Who said they were?

Interesting. You claim election is being chosen for salvation, yet you won't address any of the biblical examples I gave proving that none of the examples were chosen for salvation.

So, do you have ANY verses that specifically and clearly teach that salvation is by election.

FreeGrace2 · May 25, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear FreeGrace2,

You said:
If that depressing idea were true, then we should just all give up.

We are all born spiritually blind and remain so until we receive the Latter Rain.

No one gets saved by "latter rain". Are you a poet, by chance?

Our only hope is for Christ to "come again" to us and heal us.

More unbiblical flowery language. Our only hope is for Christ to save us. And I use the word "hope" in the Greek sense of the word. A confident expectation.

Scripture says that He is the giver of good gifts. Pray for Him to come again to you and give you those good gifts.

I received all the gifts He gives when I believed in Him for salvation a very long time ago.

Is this just an insinuation that I am not saved?

Christ is our only hope to know God and be saved. You need to put aside your false belief that you contribute to your own salvation.

You aren't reading so well. I never said that nor suggested that.

I NEVER helped God save me. How ludicrous. Here is what the Bible teaches: God saves those who believe. You want proof?

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Please don't make the mistake of reading this verse as "God was pleased WITH the foolishness..." It says God was pleased... to save those who believe.

You have no such power.

Of course I don't. Again, how ludicrous to think such nonsense.

Mankind is utterly carnal, sinful and blind. In that condition, we cannot know or seek God.

I'm waiting for your explanation of Cornelius. Do you have one?

Here is Paul's advice:

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Why fear and trembling? Paul answers that in the next verse:

13 BECAUSE it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do you understand what Paul meant by "work out your own salvation"? What was he referring to?

Christ is the one who decides if you are going to be saved now or later.

How silly. Christ, as God, as always known when one will be saved. You seem to think He determines when He "gives the faith" to believe". That is bunk.

We do not get to decided nor do we even get to know in advance if we are "chosen" or not.

You just don't understand election. God has chosen believers for service.

Read Eph 1:4 and replace the word "us" with 'believers'. Paul defined "us" as "those who believe" in v.19.

The verse that specifically addresses the PURPOSE of election is Romans 9-
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

Now, please quote any verse that says salvation is by election.

If you think that is "depressing" then you need to pray for more faith to trust God's plan for you.

I have no problem with God's plan period. I was referring to calvinist doctrines that are depressing. And unbiblical.

He loves you more than you can know at this time and He will do everything He needs to do to save you.

OK, so you DO think I'm unsaved. Your discernment seems rather low.

You said:
Oh oh, here comes "spiritualizing". Those who spiritualize get to say whatever they want about verses and the "spiritualizing" can neither be proven or refuted.

We are told by Paul to compare spiritual words with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture.

Could you point me to that exact verse where Paul actually says what you claim he said?

FreeGrace2 · May 25, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear FreeGrace2,
I have presented many, many verses that support my statements.

Seems everyone presents a whole lot of verses, even the Arminians. Do you believe what the Arminians claim about loss of salvation. I sure don't.

The same with calvinism. Claims without any clear support from Scripture.

You just won't accept them.

I don't accept your spin on Scripture.

Also, what I believe is not Calvinism by any stretch of the imagination.

You have just got to be kidding!!!

If you think they are, then you either have not carefully read my posts or you are not very familiar with Calvinism. Calvinism is a just another false belief system.
Joe

Everything you've posted and claimed smacks of calvinism.

I've discussed, debated calvinists on these forums for decades. Your views on election are straight down the line calvinistic.

Same for free will.

Clare73 · May 25, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"Please address the examples I cited and
show me how any of them were elected to salvation."
Interesting. You claim election is being chosen for salvation, yet you won't address any of the biblical examples I gave proving that none of the examples were chosen for salvation.
So, do you have ANY verses that specifically and clearly teach that salvation is by election.

In the context of salvation (Romans 11:11), Paul refers to the elect (Romans 11:7),
who are predestined (chosen/elected) to adoption as sons of God through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5), wherein through this predestination (choosing/election) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7-8), made heirs to God (Ephesians 1:11) and to eternal glory (Romans 9:23), the reasons for which we were chosen (predestined/elected).

Election to sons of God is election to salvation.

Do you have ANY verses that specifically and clearly state there are three persons in the one God?

Clare73 · May 25, 2021

FaithWillDo · May 25, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No one gets saved by "latter rain". Are you a poet, by chance?

More unbiblical flowery language. Our only hope is for Christ to save us. And I use the word "hope" in the Greek sense of the word. A confident expectation.

I received all the gifts He gives when I believed in Him for salvation a very long time ago.

Is this just an insinuation that I am not saved?

You aren't reading so well. I never said that nor suggested that.

I NEVER helped God save me. How ludicrous. Here is what the Bible teaches: God saves those who believe. You want proof?

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Please don't make the mistake of reading this verse as "God was pleased WITH the foolishness..." It says God was pleased... to save those who believe.

Of course I don't. Again, how ludicrous to think such nonsense.

I'm waiting for your explanation of Cornelius. Do you have one?

Dear

Do you understand what Paul meant by "work out your own salvation"? What was he referring to?

How silly. Christ, as God, as always known when one will be saved. You seem to think He determines when He "gives the faith" to believe". That is bunk.

You just don't understand election. God has chosen believers for service.

Read Eph 1:4 and replace the word "us" with 'believers'. Paul defined "us" as "those who believe" in v.19.

The verse that specifically addresses the PURPOSE of election is Romans 9-
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

Now, please quote any verse that says salvation is by election.

I have no problem with God's plan period. I was referring to calvinist doctrines that are depressing. And unbiblical.

OK, so you DO think I'm unsaved. Your discernment seems rather low.

Could you point me to that exact verse where Paul actually says what you claim he said?

Dear FreeGrace2,
There is no sense in going round and round on this subject. Christ has not prepared your heart to receive what I am presenting. I have already shown you the verses. Your world view is so strong, that you can't accept what those verses teach.

But because you specifically asked, I will post again the verses where Paul teaches on spiritual language.

1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For a person to have their spiritual blindness healed so that they can understand and receive the truth of scripture, one must have the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain is "typed" in the Old Testament by the Red Sea baptism/baptism of Moses. Joshua and Caleb are "types" of the Elect. The Nation of Israel is a "type" of the "called out" (church). But since Joshua and Caleb are the only ones who are chosen, everyone dies in the wilderness except them. They live to cross the Jordan River into the Promised Land (salvation) which is a "type" for the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is also known as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The baptism of John the Baptist is a "type" for the Early Rain which the apostles received. But they were not saved until they received the Latter Rain in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. Until that time, they remained spiritually blind and could not understand Christ's teachings.

The Latter Rain is also the same baptism Paul received in Damascus three days after He received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. Paul's conversion experience is the pattern (type) whereby all the Elect must follow. Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road uninvited and gave Paul the Holy Spirit. PAUL DID NOT CHOOSE CHRIST. Paul then immediately fell to the earth (symbolizing His carnality) and called Jesus "Lord". Paul also became blind and could not see for himself who the voice was. He had to ask the voice who He was. Because of Paul's inability to "see" Christ resulting from his spiritual blindness, Satan can easily deceive us at this point. Paul then had to be lead by the hand to Damascus (the blind leading the blind). This "types" our spiritual blindness after we receive the Early Rain and is the reason why we all "fall away". We remain in this spiritually blind and carnally minded condition until we either "die in the wilderness" where we are dwelling or Christ comes to us again with the Latter Rain and we enter the Promised Land. This is all the work of Christ and He does His work within us without us making a "choice" for Him to do it. He does this work solely because the Elect were chosen from the foundation of the world. Mankind does not have the ability in our carnal state to ever "choose" Christ. Your belief in the Doctrine of Free Will makes for very self-righteous Christians and causes us to "fall away" and be broken (lost). It happens to everyone who has been "called" because we all must live by every Word:

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

God is not a respecter of persons so we all must travel the same path that leads to salvation. The only difference being is "when" we complete the path. The Elect complete the path in their lifetimes but everyone else will have to wait until the final age to complete it. Those completing it now are stated to be "blessed" since 100% of the work that is required comes from Christ. He is the Savior and He decides when a person will be saved.

This pathway of salvation I just described above is presented in "bits and pieces' throughout the teachings of Christ. But of course, Christ's teachings are "hidden" in spiritual language so that only those whom He chooses can understand. He is ONLY saving His Elect, the Firstfruits of His harvest in this age. If a believer is not chosen, then like the Nation of Israel, they will die in the wilderness in a worsen spiritually lost state.

Since you seem to think that Christ's spiritual language is foolishness, it is no wonder that you cannot understand or accept what Christ is teaching throughout scripture. And for that reason, it makes no sense for me to keep trying to shine the light of Christ's truth to you. I learned a long time ago that no matter how much light I shine on a person, a blind person cannot see it.

My blindness was healed on Oct. 8, 2005. My conversion testimony is posted in my profile. But before that day (the Day of the Lord), I believed much like you. I thought I was dwelling in "peace and safety" but all that changed in "one hour". Christ appeared to me as a thief in the night and destroyed the Man of Sin whom I had become. But from that destruction, I was "born again" and begin feasting on the true bread from heaven after my blindness was healed. It was the best day of my life. I have never felt such love and joy!

Like me and everyone else, you must wait on the Lord to act within you. You can't save yourself by your own efforts.

Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Our salvation is His work and He will not fail us.

Joe

FreeGrace2 · May 26, 2021

I said:
"Please address the examples I cited and
show me how any of them were elected to salvation."
Interesting. You claim election is being chosen for salvation, yet you won't address any of the biblical examples I gave proving that none of the examples were chosen for salvation.
So, do you have ANY verses that specifically and clearly teach that salvation is by election.

Clare73 said:
In the context of salvation (Romans 11:11), Paul refers to the elect (Romans 11:7),
who are elected to adoption as sons of God through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:4-5),

These verses don't say that election is TO salvation. And the verses in Eph say we are elected TO adoption AS sons. If words mean things, and they do, the verse says believers are elected to adoption AS (already sons) sons.

Our election to adoption isn't a verse about salvation, as many erroneously think.

In fact, Paul wrote this, regarding adoption:

Rom 8:23 - Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

This verse very clearly states that believers "wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship". And the next phrase, "the redemption of our bodies" shows WHEN that adoption occurs; at the resurrection.

So, believers aren't adopted YET. But we "wait eagerly" for it.

wherein through this election we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 5:1-7), made heirs to God (Ephesians 1:11) and to eternal glory (Romans 9:23),the reasons for which we were chosen (elected).

No, rom 9:23 has no link to election.

If you want to understand the PURPOSE OF ELECTION, look no further than Romans 9.

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

It couldn't be more clear. Election is to service.

1 Tim 5:21 describes angels as "elect".

Heb 1:14 - 14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

That is their election. The Bible says NOTHING about saved angels.

Election to sons of God is election to salvation.

Do you have ANY verses that specifically and clearly state there are three persons in the one God?

I just proved your claim wrong.

To your question, of course I do. Aren't you familiar with your Bible? Every believer should easily be able to prove the Trinity even though the word doesn't exist in Scripture.

2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Here we have all 3 members of the Trinity. Plus, every member is described as God in the Bible.

So there's the proof that the 3 members are all God.

Who are they who are condemned already ?

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