The Book of Revelation cannot be one hundred percent literal.

parousia70 said:

That’s a long way from “preterism prior to giving of the Revelation make sense because it was very possible to have a second coming in the first century”

Not exactly a retraction, but definitely not the same statement.

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RickReads said:

And as to the rest, you can`t even get my verse right so your comment is rejected.

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RickReads said:

Once again, you have demonstrated that trying to have a discussion with you fellows is a complete waste of valuable time.

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parousia70 said:

Yet you keep wasting it with us, by choice.

Perhaps you don't think your time is that valuable after all?

TOS rules of CF are clear.
All you have to do is request we no longer respond to any post you make that is not directed at us, and CF TOS require we honor that request.

If you feel you are wasting your time with us, it's your own fault, and within your own power to stop doing.

That said, I'll take the first step to allow you the ability to conserve your valuable time since you appear to prefer to project that responsibility upon me.

Please do not respond to any more of my posts after this one, and I will no longer direct any posts to you.

You may have the final word.
May the Peace of Christ be with you always.

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parousia70 said:

Our readers are smarter than you give them credit for.

As I demonstrated, it was you who couldn't get your verse right, conflating "times of the gentiles" with "fulness of the gentiles" which are two completely separate teachings.

I merely supplied the scriptural correction and reproof.

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RickReads said:

your misrepresentations of history

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I don`t consider this to be a serious conversation.

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Bouan Philippe said:

The futurist interpretation is mostly a literal interpretation of Revelation, but not every single word could, or should be taken literally.

Obviously, the Lamb is a person who is not a real Lamb as such. Revelation 5:6

The beast is also a person, but not a real beast at all. Revelation 13:1

The "sword" is symbolically used to represent the weapons of modern warfare, but is not an ancient weapon at all. Revelation 6:8

However, it is simply dishonest for anyone to claim that every single word in Revelation must be either literal or symbolic.

Most of Revelation is literal, but not every single word can be literal; it is neither one or the other, but Revelation is both literal and symbolic.

However, it is simply dishonest to pretend that the entire text should be interpreted in "black and white" terms.

Please discuss.


PS. The orthodox theology has maintained that whenever possible, Revelation (and the rest of the Bible) should be interpreted in literal terms, unless such an interpretation is impossible.

Consequently, no chapter in the Bible can be one hundred percent literal or symbolic, but there is no reason to assume that this presents an exegetical problem.

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martymonster said:

So close, yet so far!

You admit that the Lamb, the Beast and the Sword aren't literal, but you just can't seem to take it to the logical conclusion.
None of it is literal!

Most people interpret Revelation as being at least part way literal, and yet, no one seems to be able to understand it. Why is that?

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I shall give you an example of comparing spiritual with spiritual.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

It's all spiritual, not literal. ...And just for the record, swords in scripture represent scripture, not literal weapons, even though it is very much used as a weapon. There's a reason that it is two edged. One edge is the literal interpretation, which most people have, and the other is the spiritual interpretation, which most people do not have.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Carnal just means physical or fleshy. The carnal mind like literal things.

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RickReads said:

Who says no one understands Revelation? The reason most do not is that they don`t understand the Bible period. You have to study Old Testament prophecy and understand it to unlock Revelation. Christians do not read and study the Old Testament like they should and Revelation is the end cap to all the Old Testament prophecies concerning that period of time.

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martymonster said:

Most people think "The Beast" and "The Anti-Christ" in Revelation, are particular people. If anyone thinks that, they lack understanding.

You need to understand scripture in general, not just "OT prophesy" All scripture is prophesy.

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RickReads said:

The term "antichrist" is only found in the epistles of John and it is descriptive of the spirit in the world that opposes the body of Christ.

There are 2 beasts described in Revelation. The first beast, which is the one you are referencing, symbolizes the world system that will eventually evolve into a world government.

Neither of these are the antichrist as he is usually thought of. Paul called him the son of perdition and that will be a literal person.

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RickReads said:

Who says no one understands Revelation?

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martymonster said:

This is exactly what I am talking about. That is completely wrong.

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RickReads said:

Par for the course.

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martymonster said:

The fact that you said there are two beasts, is evidence that you do not understand Revelation... or scripture in general.

They are the same beast.

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RickReads said:

All I do is believe what the Bible says. According to John's testimony, they were 2 different creatures and according to John's epistle, the antichrist is a spirit.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


The second beast is normally described as the false prophet. This beast symbolizes the worldwide religion that will take over eventually.

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martymonster said:

The second beast is just a progression of the first beast. It's the same beast, just like the old man and the new man are the same man. It's a progression. The same thing with the son of perdition. The old man is who goes into perdition and then comes out of "the new man"

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

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parousia70 said:

Who has the biblical authority to declare any specific event is the fulfillment of prophecy?
Do your 5,7,10 rules above Give you that biblical authority?
Do they give anyone who uses them the biblical authority?

Who does the Bible authorize to declare when a prophecy is fulfilled? Anyone? Can you show this from scripture?

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martymonster said:

The second beast is just a progression of the first beast. It's the same beast, just like the old man and the new man are the same man. It's a progression. The same thing with the son of perdition. The old man is who goes into perdition and then comes out of "the new man"

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

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Chi.C said:

The Scriptures are the authority. I am slave to the Scripture so
1) examine Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true."
2) accept to the limits of your understanding 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
3) be thankful Proverbs 29:18 "Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained, But happy is he who keeps the law."

The 5,7,and 10 are examples not the rules. Please insert the numbers as you deem fit. I was asked to demonstrate the mathematical ideas that ground my belief in Revelation as a prophecy of post 70AD prognostications. My contention is that it is statistically improbable for correlation to occur via natural means within the time constraints you have said (date of writing of Book of Revelation to the 70AD). Unless it was a miracle. History says such a miracle was not recorded.

Authority? As intimated above, being a slave to God I must obey the Scriptures to whatever end. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

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