Well Joe,
how about: Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee. If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
We must be careful to not mix up knowing and knowing about as they are two different things. For example, Christians know Jesus, demons know about Jesus. This difference is also brought out in Matthew 25:12 where Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not... to the five foolish virgins. He obviously knew all about them, He just did not know them. Mighty big difference! Well this also means that there is a mighty big difference between GOD knowing Jeremiah and GOD knowing about Jeremiah.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible sums it up well:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,.... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; implying a personal relationship with not knowledge about as per:
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Obviously He knew all about them but He did not have a personal relationship with them as GOD suggests HE had with Jeremiah.
Since I believe that GOD knows about this difference then when GOD says to me that HE knew Jeremiah before his conception, I believe that GOD is sort of telling me that Jeremiah existed before his conception. If GOD was not bearing witness to Jeremiah's pre-conception existence in this verse, would you please tell me what HE was revealing? Was it HIS omniscience, that is, was HE telling Jeremiah that HE knew all about him before HE made him in the womb, that is, before he was created?
But Jeremiah needed no revelation of GOD's omniscience. Jeremiah was a priest. He was trained in the Scriptures and the Jews knew about GOD's omniscience long before his time. Well, anything but his pre-conception existence eh!!!
Let me ask you this. In your opinion, just what would GOD have to say to Jeremiah to reveal that he existed before he was made in the womb? What would HE have to say so that Jeremiah could put it in the Book in such a way that it would not give away any secrets for 2600 years?
So, is all this eisegesis or exegesis, hmmm?
Dear TedT,
Exegesis is a myth and does not exist in this world. No one can put aside their bias and world view (paradigm) when trying to understand scripture. Mankind is carnally minded and can only understand God from this carnally minded point of view. To understand God and scripture, a person must have the mind of Christ via God's Spirit. When a person has the mind of Christ, their paradigm changes and so does the meaning of scripture. Consider the meaning of "swords" in Matt 26:52. The carnal mind wants to understand a sword as a physical object. But with God, He uses the physical to explain the spiritual. With God, Swords represent the Word of God and the Word of God is Christ.
In other words:
1Cor 2:6-7 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (the Elect)
: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cor 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
No amount of "exegesis" can help a spiritually blind person see. Christ is the great healer and He is the only one who can heal mankind's blindness. We CANNOT heal ourselves and no amount of Exegesis can help one see the truth of God.
Do you understand the verses you quoted and their significance?
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you who work lawlessness!’
To understand what Christ is really teaching here requires a person to have "eyes that can see" and a great deal of true scriptural knowledge. These verses apply:
Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
In the verses from Matthew, for Christ to "know" them, His meaning of "know" is from a relationship point of view. Christ is telling them that He does not have a relationship with them even though they call Him "Lord". Why? Because they "work lawlessness". In other words, our relationship with Christ is only achieved by faith and not by our "works". When we try to make ourselves worthy of our relationship with Christ by our own works (even taking credit for making the "right" choice to accept Him as Lord), He will reject us and we will remain under Law. The believers to whom Christ is speaking are "called out" Christians commonly called the "church". They have ONLY received the Early Rain of the Spirit and remain spiritually blind and under the Law. How do I know this? Because the truth of scripture is taught "line upon line, here a little and there a little". Context is not even very important. Because this is the way truth is taught in scripture, exegesis is of no help.
Here are a few sections of scripture that explain why I know these believers have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit and why I know they are spiritually blind and remain under the Law:
1). I know they are blind because of:
Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.
In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:
2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.
2). I know that they remain under the Law because of:
John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife. All who are “in Adam” will be “called” to be God’s wife.
Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak, spiritually blind & carnal. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.
In the story from John 8:3-10,
the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth, it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts. It is the time of the
Early Rain when we are “called out” by Christ to be restored to the Father by faith. However, Satan quickly comes to us and deceives us because we remain spiritually blind. Because of his deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works. This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.
Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law can no longer accuse us. After this change from Law to faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave.
The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.
As James said, it takes the Early and Latter Rain before we are saved:
Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.
Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a
long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age. They are the only ones who are receiving the Early and Latter Rain and finding salvation.
As I said, Exegesis does not work.
Joe