is Jesus and Michael the same person ?

yeshuasavedme

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Lucifer had to be pretty confused on that point - and he was one of the sharpest knives in the drawer at the time. (which would be before the creation of the world since Rev 12 says he was the "serpent of old").

Satan used the serpent in Eden to tempt Eve - after his rebellion in heaven.
Satan is not a fallen holy angel.
There was never a rebellion in heaven.
When Adam fell, Satan got the control over the kingdom which Adam was prepared for Adam to reign over, as the "Adam, son of God" - of the human being kind: Luke 3:58
There is a host/army of evil angels who are set over the kingdom which Adam sold into sin, death, and corruption at the fall. They rule over earth from the heavens by legal authority since the time Adam sold his kingdom: but: the Promised Redeemer/Kinsman Who is God the Word, who put on the flesh garment of "Salvation/Yeshua" -which garment is the 2nd "Adam" flesh body, which He put on when it was prepared for Him by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin in the fullness of time, has paid the Ransom Price, the ACCEPTABLE Atonement, and He has not yet "taken His Power unto Himself" and reigned over His Ransomed back Kingdom, as we see He will do in the Book of the Revelation of Him.

He will do that. It is written in the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Satan will be cast out of beaven, with his army of evil angels -who are all the satans, the evil spirits in heaven; the rulers of darkness; the principalities and powers set over earth in the heavens which rule of wickedness over earth they got by legal right at the fall of Adam.
 
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BobRyan

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Satan is not a fallen holy angel.

Lucifer fell - he is now called Satan.

There was never a rebellion in heaven.

Not only was there rebellion in heaven - there was "War IN Heaven" Rev 12:7


When Adam fell, Satan got the control over the kingdom was prepared for Adam to reign over,

That would be after Lucifer's rebellion , after he was declared to be Satan - after he and his followers were expelled from heaven.

It is not a case of a really good angel suddenly pops in - in the form of a serpent to make mankind fall.

Rather - Satan wanted mankind to JOIN HIM - in his fallen state, in his rebellion against God.

============================


Scofield study Bible notes –

Gen 3: 1
The serpent
The serpent, in his Edenic form, is not to be thought of as a writhing reptile. That is the effect of the curse Genesis 3:14. The creature which lent itself to Satan may well have been the most beautiful as was the most "subtle" of creatures less than man. Traces of that beauty remain despite the curse. Every movement of a serpent is graceful, and many species are beautifully coloured. In the serpent, Satan first appeared as "an angel of light" 2 Corinthians 11:14.


John Wesley – Gen 3
V. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. We have here an account of the temptation wherewith Satan assaulted our first parents, and which proved fatal to them. And here observe, (1.) The tempter, the devil in the shape of a serpent. Multitudes of them fell; but this that attacked our first parents, was surely the prince of the devils. Whether it was only the appearance of a serpent, or a real serpent, acted and possessed by the devil, is not certain.


Robert Jamieson Gen 3
1. the serpent--The fall of man was effected by the seductions of a serpent. That it was a real serpent is evident from the plain and artless style of the history and from the many allusions made to it in the New Testament. But the material serpent was the instrument or tool of a higher agent, Satan or the devil, to whom the sacred writers apply from this incident the reproachful name of "the dragon, that old serpent" [Re 20:2]. Though Moses makes no mention of this wicked spirit--giving only the history of the visible world--yet in the fuller discoveries of the Gospel, it is distinctly intimated that Satan was the author of the plot (Joh 8:44; 2Co 11:3; 1Jo 3:8; 1Ti 2:14; Re 20:2).


Matthew Henry – Gen 3
Verses 1-5 Satan assaulted our first parents, to draw them to sin, and the temptation proved fatal to them. The tempter was the devil, in the shape and likeness of a serpent. Satan's plan was to draw our first parents to sin, and so to separate between them and their God. Thus the devil was from the beginning a murderer, and the great mischief maker.


Matthew Henry – Gen 3
Satan questioned whether it were a sin or not, to eat of this tree. He did not disclose his design at first, but he put a question which seemed innocent. Those who would be safe, need to be shy of talking with the tempter. He quoted the command wrong. He spoke in a taunting way. The devil, as he is a liar, so he is a scoffer from the beginning; and scoffers are his children. It is the craft of Satan to speak of the Divine law as uncertain or unreasonable, and so to draw people to sin; it is our wisdom to keep up a firm belief of God's command, and a high respect for it. Has God said, Ye shall not lie, nor take his name in vain, nor be drunk, &c.?.




Satan teaches men first to doubt, and then to deny. He promises advantage from their eating this fruit. He aims to make them discontented with their present state, as if it were not so good as it might be, and should be


. He tempts them to seek preferment, as if they were fit to be gods. Satan ruined himself by desiring to be like the Most High, therefore he sought to infect our first parents with the same desire, that he might ruin them too. And still the devil draws people into his interest, by suggesting to them hard thoughts of God,.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Bob Ryan said Lucifer fell - he is now called Satan.

Lucifer is not a proper noun, and only Adam, after the fall, is denied access to “heaven” and the Tree of Life there in the midst of the Garden/Paradise, in his fallen unclean flesh

so as to not eat of the tree of Life and live forever as an “undying worm” in his unclean flesh made immortal by the fruit of the Tree of Life

and therefore unfit to “morphose” into the glory body of flesh made to be a “living stone” of the “living Temple ” made for the Glory to indwell

by which the Creator planned to “plant the heavens” with the living stones/sons of God of the human being flesh kind

and by eating the fruit in Paradise of the Tree of Life before being born again by the One Plan of the Covenant of the promised Atonement,
to cause the one plan of God for creating earth as the center of His creation so as to get sons to plant the heavens by, as above;

And after eating that fruit of the Tree of Life, in the defiled garment of flesh to be then forever unfit to be changed to the glory flesh, and to be fit only for the Lake of Fire

where he would forever by an “undying worm”.


The Garden of Eden is in Eden, on the holy mount, which is in the 3rd heaven, and Paul the Apostle says Paradise/the Garden of God, is in the third heaven. 2 Cor 12 1 -4


The myth of a pre creation and fall of Satan is not supported by any foundational doctrine of the OT or NT or the history written by the sages of the Jews or of any document in the DSS.

Genesis 1 dispels that myth for one with eyes to read and see what the passage says.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heaven.
G2032 - epouranios - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
“existing in heaven
things that take place in heaven

the heavenly regions
heaven itself, the abode of God and angels
the lower heavens, of the stars
the heavens, of the clouds
the heavenly temple or sanctuary
of heavenly origin or nature”

STRONGS NT 2032: ἐπουράνιος
ἐπουράνιος, ἐπουράνιον (οὐρανός), properly, existing in or above heaven, heavenly;
1. existing in heaven: ὁ πατήρ ἐπουράνιος, i. e. God, Matthew 18:35 Rec. (Θεοί, Θεός, Homer, Odyssey 17, 484; Iliad 6, 131, etc.; 3Macc. 6:28 3Macc. 7:6); οἱ ἐπουράνιοι the heavenly beings, the inhabitants of heaven,
 
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brinny

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Is Jesus the same person as Archangel Michael mentioned in the Book of Revelation ?

Was Jesus just a temporary name that Archangel Michael used ?
Michael was "created".

Jesus was not "created". He IS Creator, God Almighty, Everlasting Father, and our Saviour.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Psalm 78: 49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
Job 1:6
[In heaven, Satan]
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:1

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Bob Ryan, your myth which is not invented by you, but is believed by you, that there was a prior creation and Satan was a holy angel and had the earth and lost it and fell from heaven, and got thrown out in a war in heaven, pre creation, of this entire universe with earth as the center of creation, is totally proven to be a really really bad myth, to the point of being an absolute lie against the Word of God as it is written.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob Ryan said Lucifer fell - he is now called Satan.

Lucifer is not a proper noun

Is 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (KJV)

Isaiah 14
The Fall of Lucifer


12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations! NKJV

13 For you have said in your heart:
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
...
(you)
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,

=================================
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
A one-volume commentary prepared by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown. It was published in 1871.
Isaiah 14:Verse 12

Isaiah 14:12-15. The Jews address the him again as a fallen once-bright star.

“The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given.”

================================
Scofield Bible (first appeared in 1909 and was revised by the author in 1917.)

Verse 12
son of the morning

Isaiah 14:12-14 evidently refer to Satan, who, as prince of this world-system (see "World," John 7:7 (See Scofield "Revelation 13:8") is the real unseen ruler of the successive world- powers. Tyre, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. (see Ezekiel 28:12-14 Lucifer, "day-star," can be none other that Satan. This tremendous passage marks the beginning of sin in the universe. When Lucifer said, "I will," sin began. See Scofield "Revelation 20:10".

See other instances of addressing Satan through another, Genesis 3:15; Matthew 16:22; Matthew 16:23.

=============================
Wikipedia – Lucifer: Lucifer - Wikipedia

Sigve K Tonstad argues that the New Testament War in Heaven theme of Revelation 12 (Revelation 12:7–9), in which the dragon "who is called the devil and Satan … was thrown down to the earth", was derived from the passage about the Babylonian king in Isaiah 14.[70]

Origen (184/185 – 253/254) interpreted such Old Testament passages as being about manifestations of the devil; but writing in Greek, not Latin, he did not identify the devil with the name "Lucifer".

Origen was not the first to interpret the Isaiah 14 passage as referring to the devil: he was preceded by at least Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225), who in his Adversus Marcionem (book 5, chapters 11 and 27) twice presents as spoken by the devil the words of Isaiah 14:14: "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High".
 
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BobRyan

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Bob Ryan, your myth which is not invented by you, but is believed by you, that there was a prior creation

Not a prior creation of Earth - a Creation of the entire universe existed along with God and the Angels, prior to Earth

and Satan was a holy angel and had the earth and lost it

Satan never "had the earth" prior to the fall of Adam - either as Satan or as Lucifer.

and fell from heaven, and got thrown out in a war in heaven,

See Rev 12 and notice that Satan is already bad in the OT - see Job 1. Rev 12 says he is the devil/satan in Eden. Already fallen along with his angels.

pre creation, of this entire universe with earth as the center of creation,

Earth is not and never was the center of creation.
 
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Is Jesus the same person as Archangel Michael mentioned in the Book of Revelation ?

Was Jesus just a temporary name that Archangel Michael used ?

Nope.

Jesus is the Eternal Logos, the only-begotten Son of God the Father, He is true God. Eternal, uncreated, truly God.

Michael the Archangel is an archangel, a creature, one of the chief angels to be sure--but still only an angel.

Michael is like us, a worshiper and servant of our Lord Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Not a prior creation of Earth - a Creation of the entire universe existed along with God and the Angels, prior to Earth
....
Earth is not and never was the center of creation.
The entire universe did NOT exist before the earth was created as told of in Genesis 1, which tells of the beginning of and center of all creation and everything in it.
Nothing was out there, away from, the earth, which was suspended in the firmament as a globe of primal waters, and which waters were cut in half by the firmament on day 2, and stretched out in layers/stories of at least 3, and the firmament was named "two waters", which is translated "heavens".
On Day 1, God called light into being out of the darkness, and divided them from one another, making one complete day from the darkness revolving and the light revolving around the globe to the starting point.
God says so.
There was no light other than right at the center of creation, revolving around the globe for the first morning right here, and then, stretched out with the heavens on day 2.
There was no sun nor moon, nor stars/constellations until day 4 of creation week and they were set in the revolving around the earth heavens on day 4, to be calendars for earth.
The Word of God states that nothing existed, but the never created Creator, before Genesis 1.

Yes, in Genesis and through the Word, earth is the center of creation, and nothing was Out there until day 2, stretched out from earth, between divided in two waters.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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God the Son - sometimes is referred to as "Michael" when He is engaged in war/battle/conflict

In Gen 18:2 - God (YHWH) and 2 Angels are referred to as "three men walking"

I do not see Jesus being called michael there friend. what did I miss.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Hebrews 1
5-14 For to which of the angels did he ever say such words as these: ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you?’ Or, again ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?’ Further, when he brings his first-born into this world of men, he says: ‘Let all the angels of God worship him’ This is what he says of the angels: ‘Who makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire’ But when he speaks of the Son, he says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions’. He also says: ‘You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak you will fold them up, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will not fail’. But does he ever say this of any of the angels: ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool?’ Surely the angels are no more than spirits in the service of God, commissioned to serve the heirs of God’s salvation.

Revelation 12
Easy-to-Read Version
The Woman Giving Birth and the Dragon
12 And then a great wonder appeared in heaven: There was a woman who was clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet. She had a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out with pain because she was about to give birth.

3 Then another wonder appeared in heaven: There was a giant red dragon there. The dragon had seven heads with a crown on each head. It also had ten horns. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and threw them down to the earth. It stood in front of the woman who was ready to give birth to the baby. It wanted to eat the woman’s baby as soon as it was born.

5 The woman gave birth to a son, who would rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was taken up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman ran away into the desert to a place that God had prepared for her. There she would be taken care of for 1260 days.

7 Then there was a war in heaven. Michael[a] and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, 8 but they were not strong enough. The dragon and its angels lost their place in heaven. 9 It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, “The victory and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah have now come. These things have come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown out. He is the one who accused them day and night before our God. 11 They defeated him by the blood sacrifice of the Lamb and by the message of God that they told people. They did not love their lives too much. They were not afraid of death. 12 So rejoice, you heavens and all who live there! But it will be terrible for the earth and sea, because the devil has gone down to you. He is filled with anger. He knows he doesn’t have much time.”

13 The dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth. So he chased the woman who had given birth to the child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of a great eagle. Then she could fly to the place that was prepared for her in the desert. There she would be taken care of for three and a half years. There she would be away from the dragon. 15 Then the dragon poured water out of its mouth like a river. It poured the water toward the woman so that the flood would carry her away. 16 But the earth helped the woman. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that came from the mouth of the dragon. 17 Then the dragon was very angry with the woman. It went away to make war against all her other children. Her children are those who obey God’s commands and have the truth that Jesus taught.

18 The dragon stood on the seashore.

In this chapter Jesus our Messiah is spoken of as being a different person than Michael.
 
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BobRyan

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I do not see Jesus being called michael there friend. what did I miss.

He is called Michael in Rev 12 and in Daniel 10 as also Matthew Henry points out. And we already see agreement on this thread that certain instances of "The Angel of the LORD" are in fact - Christ. Matthew Henry is not wrong on this one.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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The angel of the LORD is just that: an angel who speaks for YHWH, serves YHWH, and has the authority of YHWH, like the angel of the LORD who was with the children of Israel for 40 years in the wilderness and appeared as a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
He was “Penuel”, the angel of His presence/face”, who spoke for YHWH, who “must be obeyed” because “My Name is in him”, as YHWH said, and who was the one who appeared as an “ish/man” to Jacob and wrestled with him and gave Jacob the name of the New Creation man as an oracle of the adoption to come.
 
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Andrewn

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Satan is not a fallen holy angel.
There was never a rebellion in heaven.
When Adam fell, Satan got the control over the kingdom which Adam was prepared for Adam to reign over, as the "Adam, son of God" - of the human being kind: Luke 3:58
I will not argue against this assertion.

There is a host/army of evil angels who are set over the kingdom which Adam sold into sin, death, and corruption at the fall. They rule over earth from the heavens by legal authority since the time Adam sold his kingdom: but: the Promised Redeemer/Kinsman Who is God the Word, who put on the flesh garment of "Salvation/Yeshua" -which garment is the 2nd "Adam" flesh body, which He put on when it was prepared for Him by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin in the fullness of time, has paid the Ransom Price, the ACCEPTABLE Atonement, and He has not yet "taken His Power unto Himself" and reigned over His Ransomed back Kingdom, as we see He will do in the Book of the Revelation of Him.
Christ already reigns in heaven with power:

Luk 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

Joh 12:13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna! Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord— the King of Israel!”

Joh 18:37 Pilate asked him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.”

1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Eph 1:20 God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come. 22 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church,

The fact that Christ is sitting on the right hand of the Power and is reigning from heaven is repeated several times in the NT and cannot be denied by any Christian.

He will do that. It is written in the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Satan will be cast out of beaven, with his army of evil angels -who are all the satans, the evil spirits in heaven; the rulers of darkness; the principalities and powers set over earth in the heavens which rule of wickedness over earth they got by legal right at the fall of Adam.
Christ, through his mission, sacrifice, and resurrection has already bound satan and cast him out of heaven:

Luk 10:19 See, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing will hurt you.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.

Joh 16:11 about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

Col 2:14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, proclaiming,

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Messiah,
for the accuser of our comradeshas been thrown down,
who accuses them day and night before our God.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I will not argue against this assertion.


Christ already reigns in heaven with power:

Luk 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

Joh 12:13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna! Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord— the King of Israel!”

Joh 18:37 Pilate asked him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.”

1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Eph 1:20 God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come. 22 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church,

The fact that Christ is sitting on the right hand of the Power and is reigning from heaven is repeated several times in the NT and cannot be denied by any Christian.


Christ, through his mission, sacrifice, and resurrection has already bound satan and cast him out of heaven:

Luk 10:19 See, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing will hurt you.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.

Joh 16:11 about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

Col 2:14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, proclaiming,

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Messiah,
for the accuser of our comradeshas been thrown down,
who accuses them day and night before our God.
Yes Christ is on the throne in heaven, at the right hand of the Father, but we wrestle now against those wicked rulers in the heavens, those principalities and powers set over earth who rule lawfully over the nations, and we shall wrestle against the evil rulers in the heavens =satans- and will until Christ takes His ransomed kingdom unto Himself and reigns over earth, cleansing it for the millennial Sabbath to reign over all that is in the kingdom God prepared for Adam from the beginning, which Christ in flesh has ransomed back but has not taken His power unto Himself to reign as 2nd Adam, over, yet. The restored kingdom of God on earth for the Sabbath Millennium is coming, but is not yet here, and we wrestle with the evil powers in the heavenly realm, says Paul.
 
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ViaCrucis

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He is called Michael in Rev 12 and in Daniel 10 as also Matthew Henry points out. And we already see agreement on this thread that certain instances of "The Angel of the LORD" are in fact - Christ. Matthew Henry is not wrong on this one.

Neither Revelation 12 or Daniel 10 refer to Christ as Michael. They simply mention St. Michael the Archangel, one of many archangels mentioned in 2nd Temple Jewish writings.

This particular heresy of your church is quite indefensible.

And if you are worshiping Michael the Archangel, then you are engaging in flagrant idolatry.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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