Apostasy

not submitting to what the Church teaches. they go too far to left or right, and want the Church to conform to what they think it should be.

Bad catechism.

Some jurisdictions seem to care more about gaining numbers than keeping people much less making quality converts of the ones they do get.

Some people convert because they see Orthodoxy as a culture war alternative to Protestantism or Catholicism, but they don't really become Orthodox in the full sense of the word. And due to the aforementioned bad catechism they fall away when they become disappointed.

My mother spent a couple of years as an inquirer at a couple of local parishes - the closest one - Greek, the other, Antiochian. She fell away to Islam, in part, because as Fr Matt said, she had different ideas about some things - a firm belief in believers' baptism being one of them and a few other Protestant holdover ideas. But she also saw the worldliness in the Church, of people in the Church in practice if not in theory dismissing Christian teaching (sexuality and marriage being a big one, if anyone's wondering why I come down so hard on divorce between churched Orthodox Christians) and not trying to live the Christian life, of effectively holding the promotion of Greek culture higher than the evangelizing of Americans. Also, in Islam, it's a lot easier to live by their standard of what makes a good Muslim (though in the West, converts at least eschew the idea of jihad and pretend it's not core in Islamic teaching).

Making our own Fallen desires and passions OK is seriously not OK when it comes to others looking at us and wondering whether there is anything really different about us. Somebody pays a price, even if we are clueless about it.

I haven’t been around awhile. I’m a new convert.
But I might have some insight as a new convert.
It’s hard sometimes because some of the churches are very ethnic. For me personally, it’s not that difficult because I’m go to a military church so we are all mixed (Romanian, Greek, converts, etc) but stateside it would be different. Some don’t have a problem with this, I surly don’t. There are things I understand that other converts might not know such as phyletism is heresy.

Gossip is a problem but that is always a problem no matter where you are. I really shouldn’t have been surprised so I suppose that I was more my naïveté than anything else.

All the other issues I have are local church issues (like my Church is a training church apparently? So counseling answers aren’t really that great which is no ones fault; look at my post history lol I have some doozies but it was okay I guess when I asked him).
I hope that helps from a convert’s point of view.

rusmeister said:

Making our own Fallen desires and passions OK is seriously not OK when it comes to others looking at us and wondering whether there is anything really different about us. Somebody pays a price, even if we are clueless about it.

Click to expand...

this, and woe to us if/when it is us

OrthodoxWanderer said:

***ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN ANSWERS ONLY***

For those who've been around the Church for some time...what do you think/what have you observed as the biggest cause(s) of apostasy as pertaining to new converts? Why do they fall away?
I'm having this discussion with some fellow parishioners right now, because we've heard of it but have not yet seen it in action.

Click to expand...

I don’t think I could officially call myself an Orthodox member although I do hold the EOC in the highest regards and I was wondering if it would be ok if I shared my perspective on this matter?

daydreameranastasia said:

I haven’t been around awhile. I’m a new convert.
But I might have some insight as a new convert.
It’s hard sometimes because some of the churches are very ethnic. For me personally, it’s not that difficult because I’m go to a military church so we are all mixed (Romanian, Greek, converts, etc) but stateside it would be different. Some don’t have a problem with this, I surly don’t. There are things I understand that other converts might not know such as phyletism is heresy.

Gossip is a problem but that is always a problem no matter where you are. I really shouldn’t have been surprised so I suppose that I was more my naïveté than anything else.

All the other issues I have are local church issues (like my Church is a training church apparently? So counseling answers aren’t really that great which is no ones fault; look at my post history lol I have some doozies but it was okay I guess when I asked him).
I hope that helps from a convert’s point of view.

Click to expand...

I love the military chapels. Two out of my three favorite parishes have been the chapels at Navy boot camp and Okinawa. The chaplain at boot camp basically assigned the choir and reader based on who knew how to read or sing. Good times!

On the phyletism front, I think if more cradles knew what it is and that it is a heresy they'd take a bit more initiative in solving the overlapping jurisdiction mess.

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t think I could officially call myself an Orthodox member although I do hold the EOC in the highest regards and I was wondering if it would be ok if I shared my perspective on this matter?

Click to expand...

Go for it! We can all use a little constructive criticism.

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t think I could officially call myself an Orthodox member although I do hold the EOC in the highest regards and I was wondering if it would be ok if I shared my perspective on this matter?

Click to expand...

We welcome different perspectives! WE just have a lot of people telling us what Christian teaching is in our own congregational forum. As long as you're not contradicting Orthodox teaching, you are welcome! (And we have a special sub-forum for people who want to express their doubts about that)

Thanks for allowing me to share my observations. I just wanted to say that I live in America where Protestantism is overwhelmingly outnumbering both the RCC and EOC churches. There’s such a huge protestant influence here in America that people have grown up surrounded by it and on top of that the EOC influence in America is almost nonexistent. So I think when new EOC converts in America hear Orthodox doctrines and traditions it sounds very foreign to many of them and I think that an ignorance of the ECF’s writings also greatly contributes to this problem. The biggest factors that pulled me closer to the EOC doctrines were the ECf’s writings and the early church history. Without those pieces of knowledge I would’ve never even considered the EOC as being The apostolic Church of God. Today with the internet and access to thousands and thousands of commentaries based on 16th century doctrines there’s just a whole lot of confusion as to what the scriptures actually say which is why I think it is very important to go to the earliest EFC writings to gather evidence to how the scriptures were originally interpreted by the early church. One problem I think that is also extremely common is complacency. So many people just want to go to church, get saved, and go on with their life the same way they have always done. It’s nearly impossible to get people to read the scriptures let alone the ECF’s writings on top of that to explain to them how the scriptures should be interpreted. So I think these are quite possibly some of the bigger issues as to why many new converts may be leaving the church. Basically they just aren’t interested in doing any study on God’s word or may not know that they need to. For many of them church is just a pastime hobby not a Way of life.

rusmeister said:

We welcome different perspectives! WE just have a lot of people telling us what Christian teaching is in our own congregational forum. As long as you're not contradicting Orthodox teaching, you are welcome! (And we have a special sub-forum for people who want to express their doubts about that)

Click to expand...

Yes I understand, so many eyes & ears are closed these days. Although their mouths are wide open lol

Leaving aside the protestant mentality that it's your right to find a church your comfortable in and to shop around and move around and all are part of invisible church theory, it's the same reasons that plagues much of Christianity. We stand for nothing.
Families now looks towards its secular majority for it's direction Christianity having become a domesticated aspect of western culture. A feeble laity that has succumbed to the ideals of secular humanism and has booted their faith to the side as impractical.
Abortion? It's part of free choice and we forgive.
Divorce? Its sad but serial monogamy is the future so we forgive.
inappropriate contenteia? Its sad but has always been with us and we forgive. The flesh is weak and love is love. Perhaps for prostitution a government program can help
Baptism? If done in the trinity it's all the same. God won't ask your sect (as long as it originated in the west)
Fasting? It's too strict and we need to modernize.
Marriage and children? Whether you get a civil marriage only, or get a church wedding later or have kids first then marriage. All the same and the church will accommodate your needs being to afraid to hemmorage members who will get offended.

E.C. said:

I love the military chapels. Two out of my three favorite parishes have been the chapels at Navy boot camp and Okinawa. The chaplain at boot camp basically assigned the choir and reader based on who knew how to read or sing. Good times!

On the phyletism front, I think if more cradles knew what it is and that it is a heresy they'd take a bit more initiative in solving the overlapping jurisdiction mess.


Go for it! We can all use a little constructive criticism.

Click to expand...

Oh I grew up in Oki on Kadena AFB!

On a personal level of observation I have seen people ( from priest, presbytera to parishioners) invest much time & energy ( from sharing their faith as best they know to financially help) to what sometimes are just mean ingrates. These were often elderly people 20 to 30 years older helping what just turn out to be mean ingrates. I know of a Georgian Orthodox Church ( the parishioners probably not versed in a western evangelical approach) that still gave a warm welcome to an American ( false) “seeker” who later stole from them ( the Georgians also forgave & did not pursue charges). In another situation I know of a good, convert priest ( before I joined our parish) who was not harassed but noticeably resented by a couple of cliques.

Sometimes I think evil works to manipulate and thwart the ability of the church to fulfill its mission. I see the energy of the caring parishioners squandered, a decent priest need reassignment, etc.etc. I realize the greatest good from these tragedies are in the book of life but in the day to day it can be saddening.

E.C. said:

On the phyletism front, I think if more cradles knew what it is and that it is a heresy they'd take a bit more initiative in solving the overlapping jurisdiction mess.

Click to expand...

another good point

Hey guys, I'm back.
For better or for worse, I've kind of taken a break from Christianity altogether.

What I will say in response is this:

1. The overall cliquiness of a Church community. I find that a lot of broken people, inadvertently or not, come into the Church, where because of their brokenness, they are often ostracized and left out, particularly if there is an ethnic portion of the Church. In my Church community, I could be act very socially atypical at points (that is to say, I loved talking a lot and could be loud / obnoxious in regards to talking about theology); and I was ostracized by 90% of my peers near my age, and even by the rector Priest himself who very clearly didn't like me; especially the Greeks and Ukrainians. Most of them put on a fake smile and say "I love you like Jesus loves you" but you know that they don't by their actions (getting passive aggressive with you for no reason, leaving you in the dark in regards to social / Church events, trying to avoid you, getting easily upset at you, leaving you in the dark with people beginning to date each other / not inviting you to weddings, etc.). That led to disillusionment.

2. The foundation of a convert not being Christ. I think a lot of people come to Orthodoxy based on frustration towards their pre-existing religion, and communities who are on the defensive from other church communities often foster that anger / resentment. For example, many Catholics who are frustrated at the failings morally, spiritually, or socially of their own pastors (for example, the failings of the Pontiff, or the failings of the bishops); or many Protestants who are sick of the Jack-Chick or anti-intellectual attitude towards Christianity. Or worse, there may be some deep underlying issues and resentment towards one's state in life that one finds Orthodoxy as an escapist "Gnostic shield" against (Hey, I may be alone, unwanted, isolated, sad, depressed, and miserable, but at least I'm one of the few hundred thousand in America that knows "the Truth").

You get a "the candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long" kind of scenario, where the journey to Orthodoxy begins extremely zealously, even outshining in devotion some long time practitioners, but it ends abruptly when the light dims when that person has an epiphany of why they are converting to Orthodoxy. The storm hits, the foundations of sands are washed away, and the Temple of Faith collapses.

TheLostCoin said:

Hey guys, I'm back.
For better or for worse, I've kind of taken a break from Christianity altogether.

What I will say in response is this:

1. The overall cliquiness of a Church community. I find that a lot of broken people, inadvertently or not, come into the Church, where because of their brokenness, they are often ostracized and left out, particularly if there is an ethnic portion of the Church. In my Church community, I could be act very socially atypical at points (that is to say, I loved talking a lot and could be loud / obnoxious in regards to talking about theology); and I was ostracized by 90% of my peers near my age, and even by the rector Priest himself who very clearly didn't like me; especially the Greeks and Ukrainians. Most of them put on a fake smile and say "I love you like Jesus loves you" but you know that they don't by their actions (getting passive aggressive with you for no reason, leaving you in the dark in regards to social / Church events, trying to avoid you, getting easily upset at you, leaving you in the dark with people beginning to date each other / not inviting you to weddings, etc.). That led to disillusionment.

2. The foundation of a convert not being Christ or loving others. I think a lot of people come to Orthodoxy based on frustration towards their pre-existing religion, and communities who are on the defensive from other church communities often foster that anger / resentment. For example, many Catholics who are frustrated at the failings morally, spiritually, or socially of their own pastors (for example, the failings of the Pontiff, or the failings of the bishops); or many Protestants who are sick of the Jack-Chick or anti-intellectual attitude towards Christianity. Or worse, there may be some deep underlying issues and resentment towards one's state in life that one finds Orthodoxy as an escapist "Gnostic shield" against (Hey, I may be alone, unwanted, isolated, sad, depressed, and miserable, but at least I'm one of the few hundred thousand in America that knows "the Truth").

You get a "the candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long" kind of scenario, where the journey to Orthodoxy begins extremely zealously, even outshining in devotion some long time practitioners, but it ends abruptly when the light dims when that person has an epiphany of why they are converting to Orthodoxy.

Click to expand...

You're echoing some of the things I have felt, though if there is a difference, I suppose it might be that I came in as a middle-aged man and so had no illusions that I was joining a club of holy people (and I'm NOT saying that you did have such illusions. That's for you to say.). I grasped early on that my priest and other parishioners could disappoint me in their words and deeds and not have it shake my faith. But where I really felt shaken, "all shook up" was in realizing that parishioners could openly flount Church teaching; that not only did they sin, they made their sins "OK" and justified. Economia went one step too far and permissiveness of all manner of things became the effective rule, with everyone taking an individualist, libertarian view of the Faith, and taking statements meant to be applied only to the self, such as not to worry about others' sins, and reversing it, applying it to others condemning what happened to be their own (approved) besetting sin. Everyone minds their own business to a point that no one can see that the Church holds or teaches any standard whatsoever. I was floored at the poor reception of my translation of a book outlining in secular terms the reasons for the Church's teachings on marriage. I was impelled by the first divorce between churched regular parishioners, which became a landslide over the years, so that now half of the families with children in the parish are broken, and were broken within the Church by people claiming to want to take up their cross and follow Christ. It wasn't that they failed to take up their crosses, it was their open refusal to do so and saying that was fine that floored me. So I have felt repelled by the Church as a result, but my teachers keep me pointed there. There is nowhere else to go, and the Church, in spite of its members, has the words of eternal life.

rusmeister said:

You're echoing some of the things I have felt, though if there is a difference, I suppose it might be that I came in as a middle-aged man and so had no illusions that I was joining a club of holy people (and I'm NOT saying that you did have such illusions. That's for you to say.). I grasped early on that my priest and other parishioners could disappoint me in their words and deeds and not have it shake my faith. But where I really felt shaken, "all shook up" was in realizing that parishioners could openly flount Church teaching; that not only did they sin, they made their sins "OK" and justified. Economia went one step too far and permissiveness of all manner of things became the effective rule, with everyone taking an individualist, libertarian view of the Faith, and taking statements meant to be applied only to the self, such as not to worry about others' sins, and reversing it, applying it to others condemning what happened to be their own (approved) besetting sin. Everyone minds their own business to a point that no one can see that the Church holds or teaches any standard whatsoever. I was floored at the poor reception of my translation of a book outlining in secular terms the reasons for the Church's teachings on marriage. I was impelled by the first divorce between churched regular parishioners, which became a landslide over the years, so that now half of the families with children in the parish are broken, and were broken within the Church by people claiming to want to take up their cross and follow Christ. It wasn't that they failed to take up their crosses, it was their open refusal to do so and saying that was fine that floored me. So I have felt repelled by the Church as a result, but my teachers keep me pointed there. There is nowhere else to go, and the Church, in spite of its members, has the words of eternal life.

Click to expand...

I appreciate the friendliness.

I definitely experienced people with opinions "different" from what is Orthodox. However, you are talking to someone who was raised as a "John Paul II we love you" Catholic in a religiously apathetic Catholic community, composed mostly of blue-collar workers and small business owners who only went to Mass because it was the conservative thing to do and their parents went there.

Just having a Priest teach me theology was a breath of fresh air and hearing a more than accurate moral theology during sermons was like heaven on Earth.

However, I wouldn't say that I left or took a pause because of my anger or disillusionment with people, although it was a contributory factor. A lot of it is philosophical and connected to my own dissatisfaction with myself. That is, I struggle philosophically and factually with some basic Christian ideas and the reality I see and know, as well as the fact that after some soul-searching that began in Orthodoxy, my intentions in finding God were not pure. They were done out of a ressentiment towards people who rejected me socially during adolescence (and onwards moving forward till recently), as a way to claim superiority in some fashion. That was my spirituality. Now that the house of cards has collapsed, I'm kind of left blank and meaningless.

TheLostCoin said:

1. The overall cliquiness of a Church community. I find that a lot of broken people, inadvertently or not, come into the Church, where because of their brokenness, they are often ostracized and left out, particularly if there is an ethnic portion of the Church. In my Church community, I could be act very socially atypical at points (that is to say, I loved talking a lot and could be loud / obnoxious in regards to talking about theology); and I was ostracized by 90% of my peers near my age, and even by the rector Priest himself who very clearly didn't like me; especially the Greeks and Ukrainians. Most of them put on a fake smile and say "I love you like Jesus loves you" but you know that they don't by their actions (getting passive aggressive with you for no reason, leaving you in the dark in regards to social / Church events, trying to avoid you, getting easily upset at you, leaving you in the dark with people beginning to date each other / not inviting you to weddings, etc.). That led to disillusionment.

2. The foundation of a convert not being Christ. I think a lot of people come to Orthodoxy based on frustration towards their pre-existing religion, and communities who are on the defensive from other church communities often foster that anger / resentment. For example, many Catholics who are frustrated at the failings morally, spiritually, or socially of their own pastors (for example, the failings of the Pontiff, or the failings of the bishops); or many Protestants who are sick of the Jack-Chick or anti-intellectual attitude towards Christianity. Or worse, there may be some deep underlying issues and resentment towards one's state in life that one finds Orthodoxy as an escapist "Gnostic shield" against (Hey, I may be alone, unwanted, isolated, sad, depressed, and miserable, but at least I'm one of the few hundred thousand in America that knows "the Truth").

You get a "the candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long" kind of scenario, where the journey to Orthodoxy begins extremely zealously, even outshining in devotion some long time practitioners, but it ends abruptly when the light dims when that person has an epiphany of why they are converting to Orthodoxy. The storm hits, the foundations of sands are washed away, and the Temple of Faith collapses.

Click to expand...

The first point is why I will not go to Greek churches anymore unless it is the sole Orthodox church around. In the USA they tend to treat the church more like a social club with a priest attached to it. If today's Greeks are indicative of their ancestors than it is simply miraculous that Sts. Cyril and Methodius even became missionaries in the first place.

TheLostCoin said:

I appreciate the friendliness.

I definitely experienced people with opinions "different" from what is Orthodox. However, you are talking to someone who was raised as a "John Paul II we love you" Catholic in a religiously apathetic Catholic community, composed mostly of blue-collar workers and small business owners who only went to Mass because it was the conservative thing to do and their parents went there.

Just having a Priest teach me theology was a breath of fresh air and hearing a more than accurate moral theology during sermons was like heaven on Earth.

Click to expand...

Sounds like my Roman Catholic upbringing. Fr Seamus was knowledgeable in theology, but unfortunately never had a good outlet to teach it. The parish had a school attached and between the lower grades and old-money intelligentsia that ran the parish he got pulled a few too many less-than-important directions. I think he was beyond relief when he retired.

Like you, I had a huge breath of fresh air when I could finally chat theology not only with the priest, but with other knowledgeable laymen as well.