Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

BABerean2 said:

You are correct. Christ said He would "fulfill" the whole law, instead of abolishing it.

Hebrews 8:13 says the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete", instead of abolishing it.

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Paul used the words "Sinai" and "covenant" in Galatians 4:24-31, and based on Deuteronomy 5:1-22 the Sinai Covenant is the ten commandments written on stone.

I do not have to re-define what the Bible says in Deuteronomy 5:1-22, or Galatians 4:24-31, or Hebrews 8:13, or Hebrews 12:18-24, to make Ellen G. White's doctrine work.


I can accept what Paul said below.

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?..

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Amazing, you did not even read the post and the scriptures provided in it that disagrees with you showing what made up the old covenant and what the new covenant is did you. You are indeed trying to re-define what is written in the scriptures with your interpretations of them pulled from context as shown in previous posts to you. It seems your error is in not understanding what the old covenant is and what the new covenant is that the old covenant points to as shown in the very post you are micro-quoting. Anyhow God's Word has been shared with you. It is up to you what you will do with the correction provided only in love and as a help to you. So I will leave that between you and God.

I also accept what Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 3 but not your interpretation of it.

Let's look at the scriptures in detail...

This for some reason seems to be a confusing passage of scripture for some but it is not difficult if we follow context and what Paul has already stated in other passages. This scripture actually has nothing to do with God’s 10 commandments being abolished. That is a false teaching and contradicts with Paul says in other scriptures. The ministration of death is the penalty for sin. The wages of sin is death according to Paul but the gift of God is eternal life through JESUS Christ *Romans 6:23.

It is the ministration of condemnation and death that is done away in Christ because he paid the price for our sins (death) and those who believe are have been made free to walk in God’s Spirit in newness of life. If we walk in God’s Spirit however we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh according to Galatians 5:16. In fact if we walk in God’s Spirit God’s law is established in us because of God’s forgiveness for our sins and the scriptures are fulfilled in Romans 8:1-4 [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.[2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

So your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 that God’s law has been abolished is a false one dear friend. It is the ministration of condemnation and sins penalty (death) that has been abolished in those who believe and follow God’s Word.

Need more evidence?

An interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 of God’s 10 Commandments being abolished has Paul contradicting himself in Romans 3:31. Here lets show how by comparing 2 Corinthians 3:7 where some interpret this scripture as God’s 10 commandments being abolished with Romans 3:31 where Paul state God’s law is not to be abolished but established through faith…


PARALLEL OF ROMANS 3:31

ROMANS 3:31 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Are we (G2673) eliminating The Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are (G2476) establishing The Written Law.

ROMANS 3:31 (International Standard Version) Do we, then, (G2673) abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we (G2476) uphold the Law.

ROMANS 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make (G2673) void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we (G2476) establish the law.

Note the Greek word used here for void/eliminating/abolish is G2673 in the Greek

ROMANS 3:31 (Greek) νόμον οὖν (G2673) καταργοῦμενην διὰ τῆς πίστεως μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον (G2476) ἱστῶμεν

Note the same Greek word is used for ROMANS 3:31 is also used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7…

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (International Standard Version) Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (G2673) because the glory was fading away from it,

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory, so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face (G2673) that which has been canceled

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be (G2673) done away

2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 (Greek) Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ, ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωϋσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν (G2673) καταργουμένην

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Note the same word used in ROMANS 3:31 for abolish is used in 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 as shown above and is also translated as abolished in some English translations.

Let’s look at the Greek word meaning that both scriptures use…

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2673 καταργέω
Καταργουμένην; katargeō From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 2673: καταργέω
καταργέω, κατάργω; future καταργήσω; 1 aorist κατήργησα; perfect κατήργηκα; passive, present καταργοῦμαι; perfect κατήργημαι; 1 aorist κατηργήθην; 1 future καταργηθήσομαι; causative of the verb ἀργέω, equivalent to ἀργόν (i. e. ἀεργον (on the accent cf. Chandler § 444)) ποιῶ; frequent with Paul, who uses it 25 times (elsewhere in N. T. only twice (Luke, Heb.), in the Sept. 4 times (2 Esdr., see below)); 1. to render idle, unemployed, inactive, inoperative: τήν γῆν, to deprive of its strength, make barren (A. V. cumber), Luke 13:7; to cause a person or a thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power (A. V. bring to nought, make of none effect): τί, Romans 3:3; 1 Corinthians 1:28; τινα, 1 Corinthians 2:6 (but in passive); diabolic powers, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (Justin Martyr, Apology 2, 6); Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:8; τόν θάνατον, 2 Timothy 1:10 (Epistle of Barnabas 5, 6 [ET]); τόν διάβολον, Hebrews 2:14; passive 1 Corinthians 15:26; to make void, τήν ἐπαγγελίαν, Galatians 3:17; passive Romans 4:14. 2. to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish: τί, 1 Corinthians 6:13; 1 Corinthians 13:11; τόν νόμον, Romans 3:31; Ephesians 2:15; τόν καιρόν τοῦ ἀνόμου, Epistle of Barnabas 15, 5 [ET]; passive πόλεμος καταργεῖται ἐπουρανίων καί ἐπιγείων, Ignatius ad Eph. 13, 2 [ET]; ἵνα καταργηθῇ τό σῶμα τῆς ἁμαρτίας, that the body of sin might be done away, i. e. not the material of the body, but the body so far forth as it is an instrument of sin; accordingly, that the body may cease to be an instrument of sin, Romans 6:6. Passive to cease, pass away, be done away: of things, Galatians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 13:8, 10; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13f; of persons, followed by ἀπό τίνος, to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from, anyone; to terminate all contact with one (a pregnant construction, cf. Winers Grammar, 621 (577); Buttmann, 322 (277)): ἀπό τοῦ Χριστοῦ, Galatians 5:4 (on the aorist cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 5 b.); ἀπό τοῦ νόμου, Romans 7: (2 (Relz omits τοῦ νόμου)),6. The word is rarely met with in secular authors, as Euripides, Phoen. 753 κατάργειν χερα, to make idle, i. e. to leave the hand unemployed; Polybius quoted in Suidas (s. v. κατηργηκεναι) τούς καιρούς, in the sense of to let slip, leave unused; in the Sept. four times for Chaldean בַּטֵּל, to make to cease, i. e. restrain, check, hinder, 2 Esdr. 4:21, 23 2Esdr. 5:5 2Esdr. 6:8.

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CONCLUSION: So as can be shown above an interpretation of 2 CORINTHIANS 3:7 that God’s 10 commandments are abolished has PAUL contradicting himself in ROMANS 3:31. The correct context of 2 Corinthians 3:7 is the ministration of condemnation and death that is to be abolished by the ministration of the Spirit as shown in 2 Corinthians 3:3-13. So nope not saying what you are dear friend. Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7 has Paul contradicting himself when he says In Romans 3:31 Do we then (G2673) abolish the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we (G2476) establish the law.

Your interpretation of the scriptures that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about God's 10 commandments being abolished therefore is not biblical. It is the ministration of condemnation and death that is abolished in all those who have faith in Gods' dear son and Gods' new covenant promise and the free gift of God's grace and His spirit in all those who believe and follow God's Word.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord said:

Your interpretation of the scriptures that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about God's 10 commandments being abolished therefore is not biblical.

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You are 100% correct in that the 10 commandments were not "abolished".

In Matthew 5:17-18 Christ said the whole law would be "fulfilled" by Him, instead of being "abolished".

I have never, ever, stated the 10 commandments were "abolished".

The Bible says in Hebrews 8:6-13 the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete", in the same way my chainsaw has made my axe "obsolete'.

The axe uses my power, but the chainsaw uses another power source.

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AdamjEdgar said:

Ah see that is where you make an enormous mistake. The 10 commandments vs the new convenant Jesus gave. It was not about that.

The new covenant is outlined in Hebrews...The old covenant used the High Priest as our intercessor (originally Aaron). In the New Covenant, Jesus is our intercessor.

It has nothing to do with doing away with any laws. One cannot remove the moral law, that is the standard by which ALL sin is gauged.

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Excuse me, but I do not believe I made a mistake. The ten-commandments given only to Israel as the words of the covenant did end. If you understand covenants you would realize that when one does not keep all of the words of the covenant it becomes a broken useless piece of parcel. Unless a new covenant is drawn both p[arties of the broken covenant are free. In the case of Israel, they lost the promised land and the promise to make them Ex 19: 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

Read Gal 3:19, 2Cor 3:6-11 and Eph 2:15 to name a few of the New Testament verses that tell us we are not under the laws of the old covenant. Gentiles were never under those laws and Jews are not either. Jesus new covenant tells all of mankind how to live morally. Read all about it in Jn15 and 1Jn 3:19-24.

Without a moral law there is no sin!

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The eight Holy days given to Israel were Sabbaths as was the new moon celebration. How would you classify those Sabbaths? If you say moral then why aren't you observing them?

More to come.

Freth said:

There is only one day that God set from the foundation of the world as His day of worship.

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

Using this belief (your quote), you could easily justify breaking any of the Ten Commandments. There is no foundation if the house can be shifted.

Jesus does everything to the Father's will (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22, John 6:38). God does not change, Jesus does not change (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8).

If we were able to choose our own day of worship, it would negate the very words written in stone by God Himself. The law would be forfeit. This is clearly not the case, as per scripture.

Before it gets quoted, Colossians 2:16-17 does not support choosing your own day of worship; as has been shown in context in various threads on this forum.

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And raising one day when we must worship raises that into a work vital for salvation.
As Jesus told the woman at the well, we are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

Tolworth John said:

And raising one day when we must worship raises that into a work vital for salvation.
As Jesus told the woman at the well, we are to worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

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And in doing so you will keep God's 4th Commandment, not break it.

BABerean2 said:

You are 100% correct in that the 10 commandments were not "abolished". In Matthew 5:17-18 Christ said the whole law would be "fulfilled" by Him, instead of being "abolished".

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Yet you apply these scriptures to mean God's law is abolished and no longer a requirement and the standard of Christian living? Jesus fulfilling God's laws do not mean that we are now free to break Gods' laws do you agree? If you agree then why do you teach we should break Gods' 4th commandment which according to the scriptures is one of God's 10 commandments that given us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11 and according to John those who practice sin (breaking God's law) and those who do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.

BABerean2 said:

I have never, ever, stated the 10 commandments were "abolished".

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No you never stated in your words that God's 10 commandments are abolished but your applying Jesus "fulfilling God's law" so that we no longer have to obey God's law. Therefore your teaching the same thing, that is God's 10 commandments are not longer a requirement for Christian living therefore abolished. Therefore your teaching that God's law is abolished even though your not using the word "abolished" and replacing it with "fulfilled". Let's be honest here please your teaching very plainly also that God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is abolished therefore teaching that Gods law is abolished.

BABerean2 said:

The Bible says in Hebrews 8:6-13 the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete", in the same way my chainsaw has made my axe "obsolete'. The axe uses my power, but the chainsaw uses another power source. .

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True we are in the new covenant not the old covenant. I am questioning your understanding of both covenants as posted earlier in post # 83 linked for which I did not get a response from you. Your teachings here in regards to the law and the prophets according to the scriptures is not biblical.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

SabbathBlessings said:

You're confusing God's grace with God's judgment. Two different things.

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Can you answer the questions?

What percentage of your salvation comes from Christ's blood at Calvary? ___________ %

What percentage of your salvation comes from your works? ____________ %

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SabbathBlessings said:

How would you know if someone from the Internet does not keep God’s Sabbath unless they disclose that. I think that is a job for God to decide. We will all be judged the same, so even if someone from the Internet does not keep God’s Sabbath day holy as commanded in Exodus 20:8-11 that does not remove our own individual obligation to obey God’s laws.

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Did you read James 2:10?
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is "guilty " of breaking ALL of it...

Example as in James 2:11..if you do not commit adultery but commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker..

So the question is do you keep All God's commandments? Not just one...

Are you a sinner? Are you still sinning?

As sin is the transgression of God's law...or breaking His commandments...

If you say you don't or have no sin then... read 1John 8..

But if you know you sin then we are on the same boat so is better to show mercy then to tell people to keep something that neither of us cannot keep..

So is better to get ourselves right with God first then we can get right with one another... (1st and 2nd greatest commandments)..

pasifika said:

Did you read James 2:10?
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is "guilty " of breaking ALL of it...

Example as in James 2:11..if you do not commit adultery but commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker..

So the question is do you keep All God's commandments? Not just one...

Are you a sinner? Are you still sinning?

As sin is the transgression of God's law...or breaking His commandments...

If you say you don't or have no sin then... read 1John 8..

But if you know you sin then we are on the same boat so is better to show mercy then to tell people to keep something that neither of us can keep..

So is better to get ourselves right with God first then we can get right with one another... (1st and 2nd greatest commandments)..

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Do you think these verses only apply to me and not you? They apply to us all my friend. Not sure what it has to do with my response to you, but seems like deflection.....like I said before we will all be judged the same way.

SabbathBlessings said:

Do you think these verses only apply to me and not you? They apply to us all my friend. Not sure what it has to do with my response to you, but seems like deflection.....like I said before we will all be judged the same way.

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So we are All law breakers? I agree! SO that means you also don't keep the 7th day Sabbath as commanded. .."you break One you broke All"...
So I don't judge you, but please don't go tell everyone that they should keep the 4th commandment if you don't keep it yourself...

This is just a friendly statement to encourage all of us...

pasifika said:

So we are All law breakers? I agree! SO that means you also don't keep the 7th day Sabbath as commanded. .."you break One you broke All"...
So I don't judge you, but please don't go tell everyone that they should keep the 4th commandment if you don't keep it yourself...

This is just a friendly statement to encourage all of us...

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How do you know what I do? Also it doesn’t matter what I say, God is the one who commanded us to keep His Sabbath holy, Exodus 20:8-11

BobRyan said:

Good point - it is much easier to simply accuse "the next guy of being a hypocrite" - than to work with certain details in scripture that might appear to be inconvenient.

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This way of thinking only hurts ourselves. I can’t help but wonder why this logic is never applied to any other commandment but the 4th.