Can You Get the Holy Spirit Back? How?

aiki · May 23, 2021

Trenton Miller said:
Sand here. Losing hope, then regaining then losing it, then regaining it. Wake up scared every night, more scared now that I don’t worry as much. I want to worry and change, struggling to. Lost the Holy Spirit, getting worse. Anyone wanna talk?

It is not possible to lose the Holy Spirit. He is not vacillating in his commitment to us, coming and going like the ocean tide.

Hebrews 13:5-6
5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
6 So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?”

Philippians 1:6
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

We might feel that the Spirit comes and goes, but feelings are notoriously untrustworthy, often existing in contradiction to reality and truth. And so, we are told by God in His word to anchor our faith to the facts of Scripture, to His eternal promises, not to our changeable feelings.

How eager many believers are to have a sensual experience of God, an experience that stimulates their fleshly senses and emotions in some way. But such experiences move us away from God, not toward Him. They are of the flesh and so cannot be of the Spirit, of God.

Galatians 5:17
17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Romans 8:5-8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

James 3:14-15
15 This wisdom descends not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

The desires of the flesh are not merely sexual desires, but any desire that attends to fleshly senses and impulses: the desire to eat, or to be emotionally excited, or to be entertained, or to lay about, or to accumulate things, etc.

setst777 · May 23, 2021

aiki said:
It is not possible to lose the Holy Spirit. He is not vacillating in his commitment to us, coming and going like the ocean tide.

Truly, all God's promises are ours by faith in Lord Jesus. If we disown him, he will disown us.

2 Timothy 2:12-13 (WEB)
12 If we endure we will also reign with him.
If we deny him, he also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he can’t deny himself.”

If we remain faithful, all of God's promises are ours.

Romans 4:16 (ESV) 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law (the natural seed) but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham (the spiritual seed), who is the father of us all

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Regarding the Spirit...

The Spirit will come and go as He pleases, but has a purpose for all that He does in accordance with God's Word.

John 3:8 (WEB) 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

setst777 · May 23, 2021

Trenton Miller said:
Sand here. Losing hope, then regaining then losing it, then regaining it. Wake up scared every night, more scared now that I don’t worry as much. I want to worry and change, struggling to. Lost the Holy Spirit, getting worse. Anyone wanna talk?

Brother, I have been there, and so understand what you are going through.

The struggle you presently have is because you are still indecisive about your faith commitment to Lord Jesus. You are straddling the fence between serving the Carnal Mind and to that true repentance, and fully submitting your life to Lord Jesus.

Lord Jesus taught us that we must count the cost, which is to determine whether you are willing to renounce the old carnal master, and then to follow Lord Jesus as the Gospel commands.

The Gospel demands our allegiance to Lord Jesus as the acceptable faith:

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Luke 9:23-25 (WEB) 23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self?

So you must count the cost - which is your life

Luke 14:27-35
27 Whoever doesn’t bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doesn’t first sit down and count the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? .... 33 So therefore whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 13:44-46 (WEB)
44 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.
45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Romans 6:19-23 (WEB) 19 Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 15:8-10 (WEB) 8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Once you are ready, then you are to repent, dying to the old life serving the carnal mind, and then commit to following Lord Jesus into a sanctified (separated, holy) life onto God in righteousness and love.

Once you repent and believe in Lord Jesus, following Him, the Spirit will dwell in you to lead your faith to victory into the new life you committed to when you repent and put your faith in Lord Jesus.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

The Spirit, who indwells us by this Gospel Faith, leads our faith commitment to victory, but only as we continue in the faith - living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit who indwells us. We live, walk, and sow to the Spirit as we follow Lord Jesus.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB) 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

So, as we sanctify ourselves to God by faith, only then does God's Spirit indwell us, working His sanctifying work in our lives as we continue in this faith. This is the new life in Christ, and is salvation from sin and death.

Blessing to you.

Dave G. · May 24, 2021

Count on something, it's always us who isolates or blocks our view of the Holy Spirit and the interaction with Him. He hasn't gone anywhere but He can't communicate with unconfessed sin. Get your walk right. Learn to depend on God for every aspect of your life and put Him first at the top of your list of desires and love.

That fear at night, we've all been there done that ! Cry out and call upon the Lord, have a favorite scripture ready to recite against your enemy And Do It three or four times in a session, let it really sink in and the promises replace the fear.. Never roll around and dance with the fear but call upon the Lord to remove it and cradle you back to sleep. And yes He is that close at hand. Come to expect the unexpected from Him, He has power over all things, powerful enough to speak something into existence and to breath life into man. Power enough to speak fire and brimstone rain onto a lost city to its utter destruction, direct eagles to feed their young. That's the power, not to mention love of the one we worship. Speaking of which, how is your worship life, your thanks/ giving in all circumstances good and bad ? Get picture post cards or even index cards with scripture, place them around your dwelling area, on the bathroom mirror, fridge, mount to a free standing board and mount that on a window sill. Watch internet time spent and where you go on it. Pray, read your bible, recognize God in creation, His life is in every flower pedal or blade of grass, insect, sunrise, sunset. And thank Him for it. Finally:
Philippians 4:6-7
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

aiki · May 24, 2021

setst777 said:
Truly, all God's promises are ours by faith in Lord Jesus. If we disown him, he will disown us.

2 Timothy 2:12-13 (WEB)
12 If we endure we will also reign with him.
If we deny him, he also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he can’t deny himself.”

2 Timothy 2:10-13 (NASB)
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Verse 11 is in the Greek aorist tense which implies a once-for-all-time, past accomplished fact. It is because "we died with Him" and so now "live with Him" that we do as verse 12 describes: endure and, eventually, reign with Him. Why would one who has died with Christ and been made alive spiritually in him, caused by the Spirit to endure, looking to the future, glorious hope of reigning with Christ in eternity, deny him? The only explanation that makes any sense to me is the one the apostle John offers:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Those who are "chosen" in Christ, endure in him, being elected in, and spiritually-regenerated by, him. Those who are merely claiming membership in the faith but are not truly saved are the ones who deny Christ, exposing at some point their lack of true regeneration by their denial of Christ in their thinking and living. We know such people populated the community of the Early Church, called by Christ "tares" and by Paul "false brethren."

I don't, then see Paul's words to Timothy here as a threat, or warning of lost salvation, but as a simple description of the difference between the saved and the lost person.

setst777 said:
If we remain faithful, all of God's promises are ours.

Romans 4:16 (ESV) 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law (the natural seed) but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham (the spiritual seed), who is the father of us all

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could make alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Believing the Gospel is certainly necessary to salvation. And if a real spiritual regeneration has occurred, that faith merely deepens and expands over time, being nurtured and strengthened by God Himself.

Hebrews 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

setst777 said:
Regarding the Spirit...

The Spirit will come and go as He pleases, but has a purpose for all that He does in accordance with God's Word.

John 3:8 (WEB) 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

This is NOT indicating that the Spirit will come and go from a born-again believer. Yikes.

John 3:4-8
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Christ is very clear here that spiritual life produced by the "second birth" is from the Holy Spirit. One must be born of the Spirit, which is accomplished by the Spirit coming to dwell within a person (Acts 2; Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13) But if the Spirit is really like the wind which is highly changeable, moving about constantly, how can spiritual life be imparted from him to the believer? If the Spirit is as shifting and transient as the wind, the believer can expect to have spiritual life from him only periodically and unexpectedly, at best. Is this really what Jesus was suggesting? Absolutely not. In likening the Spirit to the wind, Jesus was describing the immaterial, spiritual nature of the Spirit, extending his thoughts on the two sorts of birth: one by physical means, producing a material being, and the other by spiritual means, producing an intangible, spiritual reality. Like the wind, the Spirit cannot be physically accessed. One cannot see the wind; one cannot track its movement by such means. It is invisible; it cannot be caught in a trap, or bottled, or weighed, or cooked in a pot. The wind, like the Spirit, is immaterial and invisible. This was Christ's point, NOT that the Spirit comes and goes from a person who has been born-again.

Hebrews 13:5-6
5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
6 so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?" (All caps not mine.)

John 10:27-29
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:39-40
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

And so on.

setst777 · May 24, 2021

setst777 said: ↑
Truly, all God's promises are ours by faith in Lord Jesus. If we disown him, he will disown us.

2 Timothy 2:12-13 (WEB)
12 If we endure we will also reign with him.
If we deny him, he also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he can’t deny himself.”

aiki said:
2 Timothy 2:10-13 (NASB)
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Verse 11 is in the Greek aorist tense which implies a once-for-all-time, past accomplished fact. It is because "we died with Him" and so now "live with Him" that we do as verse 12 describes: endure and, eventually, reign with Him. Why would one who has died with Christ and been made alive spiritually in him, caused by the Spirit to endure, looking to the future, glorious hope of reigning with Christ in eternity, deny him?

True,
“If we died with him” is aorist tense.

"we will also live with Him" is future.

If this is referring to death to the old life of sin, then we should have life now, not just the future; so, don’t you find it unusual that “we will also live with him” is in the future tense, meaning live physically with him forever?

So, my understanding is that this phrase is logically referring to a future event when we die physically in Him (in the faith), so that we may also live physically with him. That is how aorist statements may be used in Greek, and is how the "if" phrases are being used in 2 Timothy 2:10-13.

As well, the word “If” implies a condition to receive all those sure promises of God in 2 Timothy 2:10-13.

Those conditional statements are directed to the “WE.”

Would you agree that “WE” is referring to the Christians, inclusive with Paul who wrote it?

IF so, do you see any guarantees in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 that we will die with him, or endure with him?

Notice the “WE” also shows us that we are not guaranteed to remain faithful, as the possibility exists that “WE” will deny him, and so be denied by Lord Jesus.

This would agree with all the Scriptures that reveal and warn to us that, unless we die faithful to our Lord, we will never be saved eternally. The Letters to all the Churches provide no guarantee that we will remain faithful until physical death, although that is the hope of God and the Apostolic Writers.

For instance, the following Scriptures show that unless we remain faithful to death to our Lord, we will not be saved eternally in the end. All the Scriptures are written to Christians as warnings, admonitions, instructions, and commands.

1 Peter 1:9 Young's Literal Translation
9 receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (WEB)
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

Romans 8:16 (WEB) 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

1 Timothy 6:18-21 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB)
10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB)
7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

aiki said:
The only explanation that makes any sense to me is the one the apostle John offers:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Those who are "chosen" in Christ, endure in him, being elected in, and spiritually-regenerated by, him. Those who are merely claiming membership in the faith but are not truly saved are the ones who deny Christ, exposing at some point their lack of true regeneration by their denial of Christ in their thinking and living. We know such people populated the community of the Early Church, called by Christ "tares" and by Paul "false brethren."

I don't, then see Paul's words to Timothy here as a threat, or warning of lost salvation, but as a simple description of the difference between the saved and the lost person.

We are chosen by faith, for the will of God is to give to the Son those who believe in Him - a Gospel Faith.

“1 John 2:19,” being couched within a teaching about anti-christs, is actually referring to anti-christs in context . If you say it doesn’t, then that is your preference, but the context actually is referring to anti-christs. And if the context is uncertain, then you cannot use it as proof, unless other Passage actually do teach what you want it to say.

setst777 said: ↑
If we remain faithful, all of God's promises are ours....
Romans 4:16 ...
Galatians 3:21-22 ...

aiki said:
Believing the Gospel is certainly necessary to salvation. And if a real spiritual regeneration has occurred, that faith merely deepens and expands over time, being nurtured and strengthened by God Himself.

That is the hope of the Apostolic Writers, in that, those in the faith would continue in the faith, deepening as time goes on. However, no guarantees are made by the Apostles, or Lord Jesus, that all those in the faith will remain faithful. That does not mean they were never in the faith if they fall away from the faith, unless Scripture teaches it.

For instance, all those warnings, and conditional statements, such as “if,” “may,” “might,” “should,” in reference to faith and salvation within the New Testament, are written to Christians to remain faithful to receive the sure promises of God.

aiki said:
Hebrews 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

We see no guarantee that we will continue to fix our eyes on Jesus, which is why Paul is urging them to do so.

aiki said:
Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Paul’s confidence is not a guarantee.

Philippians 1:6-7 (WEB)
6 being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. 7 It is even right for me to think this way on behalf of all of you

Philippians 1:27 (WEB)
27 Only let your way of life be worthy of the Good News of Christ, that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your state, that you stand firm in one spirit, with one soul striving for the faith of the Good News

Paul offers no guarantee that their faith will continue, or that they will be worthy.

aiki said:
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

God surely does sanctify us – but this sanctification is for those who continue to remain faithful expressed in abstaining from evil deeds. Not everyone who was given the Spirit by faith will remain faithful to live a sanctified life, otherwise, why would Paul warn all the Churches about falling away, and about continuing in the faith to be saved?

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB)
3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who do not know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 3:5 (WEB) For this cause I also, when I could not stand it any longer, sent that I might know your faith, for fear that by any means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor would have been in vain.

Paul, in all his letters to the churches, never expressed that the faith of those he was writing to was guaranteed to the end, and Paul never taught that faith was guaranteed – not even for himself, not even to Timothy, whom Paul personally taught.

setst777 said: ↑
Regarding the Spirit...

The Spirit will come and go as He pleases, but has a purpose for all that He does in accordance with God's Word.

John 3:8 (WEB) 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

aiki said:
This is NOT indicating that the Spirit will come and go from a born-again believer. Yikes.

Would you agree that Spiritual Life (regeneration) that the indwelling Spirit gives the believer is only a reality as we are faithful to walk in the Spirit God gave us?

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
Writing to the Church in Rome
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) Written to the Christian Church of Galatia
7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

“Hebrews 13:5-6,” “John 10:27-29,” and “John 6:39-40” provide no guarantees unless you believe (which is continuous).

aiki · May 25, 2021

setst777 said:
True,
“If we died with him” is aorist tense.

"we will also live with Him" is future.

If this is referring to death to the old life of sin, then we should have life now, not just the future; so, don’t you find it unusual that “we will also live with him” is in the future tense, meaning live physically with him forever?

No, not at all. As I was indicating in my last post, it is because we have eternal, spiritual life now that we have the expectation of eternal life in the hereafter.

setst777 said:
Would you agree that “WE” is referring to the Christians, inclusive with Paul who wrote it?

Yes, but "we" included, I think, any who would hear or read his words - even the "tares," the "false brethren," within the Early Church. In fact, I believe these sorts of statements from Paul, contrasting the saved (those who live with Him) with the unsaved (those who deny Him), are aimed particularly at these very people - people participating in the life and work of the Church but who are not really born-again children of God.

setst777 said:
IF so, do you see any guarantees in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 that we will die with him, or endure with him?

Notice the “WE” also shows us that we are not guaranteed to remain faithful, as the possibility exists that “WE” will deny him, and so be denied by Lord Jesus.

The statement of the passage in 2 Timothy 2 is considered to be a sort of creed, a formalized declaration of truth, common to the Christians of the time. I think it does offer a guarantee implicitly, if one grants that those to whom Paul was writing were indeed "chosen" by God, as Paul indicates in verse 10. There's quite a lot suggested in that word, I think (Ephesians 1:4; Romans 8:29, etc.), including a permanency of the genuine believer's redemption and adoption into God's family.

I don't think, as I already explained, that Paul is offering a warning or threat to Timothy (and other truly saved readers of his letter) but is simply delineating and confirming the difference between the saved and the lost by way of quotation of a common Early Christian creedal parallelism. Rather than suggesting that a genuine Christian can lose their salvation by failing to remain faithful, he seems to me to be indicating that because the born-again Christian has died with Christ, they will also live eternally with him. In contrast, those who have denied Christ and not died with him (the unsaved), do not have this guarantee of eternal life but can, instead, anticipate God's denial of them at the Final Judgment. (ala Matthew 7:21-23)

setst777 said:
This would agree with all the Scriptures that reveal and warn to us that, unless we die faithful to our Lord, we will never be saved eternally. The Letters to all the Churches provide no guarantee that we will remain faithful until physical death, although that is the hope of God and the Apostolic Writers.

This, to me, sounds like works-salvation. Essentially, you've made the faithfulness of the believer the key, the necessary means, to salvation; everything regarding their salvation hangs on the believer's ability to remain faithful to God. I don't mean to be inflammatory, but this sounds blasphemous to me: It makes the believer ultimately the Saviour, not Christ.

Scripture makes very clear that salvation is offered to the lost when they are in a state of utter weakness, unable in any measure to save themselves.

Romans 5:6
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Titus 3:3
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

These verses describe the state of all the lost, prior to their salvation. Because the impotence of the lost is so total, so profound, God must move first toward them, drawing them and illuminating their minds to the truth of the Gospel, giving repentance to them (2 Timothy 2:25; John 6:44) and showing them the depth of His great love for them (1 John 4:16-19).

Coming into relationship with God requires perfection on our part. This is God's standard for fellowship with Himself, for adoption into His family and kingdom. We must be as He is in our moral condition, perfectly holy, perfectly righteous. But as the verses above declare, no one can meet this standard. And so, God imparts to us the perfection we need through the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ. By faith, we receive in Christ his perfect righteousness and in receiving his righteousness, we are also perfectly sanctified (1 Corinthians 1:30). We must be; for God will not accept us otherwise.

Since our acceptance by God is entirely contingent upon Christ's perfection, since all that makes us acceptable to God is derived from the Saviour, why do we think we can contribute to his perfection? What can be added to the perfect righteousness and sanctifying life of Christ that is given to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit? If his life is truly perfect, nothing. We are accepted in the Beloved (Ephesians 1:7) and only in him. As the hymn puts it:

Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress,
Helpless, look to Thee for grace:
Foul, I to the fountain fly,
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

Is God not totally satisfied with Christ's perfection? How could He not be? But this is what is implied when we seek to add our own effort to Christ's and make our abilities, our effort, our faithfulness, crucial to our salvation. In light of these things, when I encounter verses that you think warn of salvation lost, I see only warnings to the lost, or warnings of the loss of the benefits of fellowship with God, or of the generally deleterious effects of sin. My salvation, however, is eternally secure because it does not depend upon me one whit. It is only and entirely because of Christ that I am saved. He is my salvation, not my work, not my faithfulness. (1 John 5:11; John 14:6)

setst777 said:
For instance, the following Scriptures show that unless we remain faithful to death to our Lord, we will not be saved eternally in the end. All the Scriptures are written to Christians as warnings, admonitions, instructions, and commands.

1 Peter 1:9 Young's Literal Translation
9 receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls

1 Peter 1:8-9 (NASB)
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

I am astonished that this is a passage you think warns of lost salvation. To me, it reads as a great encouragement to the believer; it is a passage of hope, describing the final, eternal condition of the saints, the "end of their faith." This is where my salvation ends up, the passage tells me, this is the culmination of my born-again status. There is no threat here, only a joyful promise. How sad that you see a threat.

setst777 said:
Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

What does it mean to "come short of a promise of entering into his rest"? Is the writer of Hebrews talking about salvation? I don't see how this could be the case in light of the OT story to which his comments are connected. When the Israelites came to the land of Canaan, to the borders of the Promised Land, and refused to go in and possess it, what happened? They were barred from the land by God, and made to wander in the wilderness for forty years. Did God abandon the Israelites when He barred them from Canaan? Did He forsake His Chosen People? Did they lose their relationship to God as a result of their unbelief? NO. God remained with His faithless people, protecting and providing for them still in the wilderness!

What, then, does Hebrews 4:1 mean? In light of the story to which it is directly connected, it simply can't be speaking of salvation. Instead, I believe it is speaking of fellowship with God. The "rest" of verse 1 is the product of fellowship with God which is prevented by unbelief. In fellowship with God through Christ, there is a spiritual "Promised Land" for the Christian believer, "overflowing with milk and honey," spiritually-speaking. But a believer can only partake of it as they, by faith, enter into it. (1 Peter 1:4; Hebrews 11:6; 2 Corinthians 5:7)

Here, too, then, I see, not a threat of lost salvation, of a lost relationship with God, but of lost fellowship, lost intimate communion with Him (and all the good things that spring from that communion).

aiki · May 25, 2021

setst777 said:
1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 4:16 (NASB)
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Is the man who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 and 2 Timothy 1:9 now contradicting himself? Does Paul teach here that Timothy can save himself, that Timothy is his own Saviour? If one takes a reading of this verse unmitigated by the rest of Scripture, this is exactly what Paul seems to be saying. Are you willing to have Scripture stand in contradiction to itself?

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Acts 4:12 (NASB)
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

In light of these - and other equally explicit verses - I can't accept that Paul is telling Timothy that his salvation is his own responsibility, that Timothy can actually be his own Saviour. What does Paul mean, then? I like the NASB's rendering: "ensure salvation." Inasmuch as true belief, heart belief, always results in corresponding action, such action becomes an external representation of an internal state-of-affairs. One can say, then, that teaching and doing the truth, persevering in these things, as every genuine believer will, "ensures" one's salvation, or "certifies" one is truly saved. But this is as far as I believe Scripture allows me to go in understanding Paul's words. As well, verse 16 is an injunction to Timothy to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Imagine the damage to the faith of the brethren over whom Timothy was set as an Elder if he acted hypocritically, teaching one thing but doing another! Or worse, warping the doctrines of the faith and teaching falsely. Of course, in doing so, Timothy would reveal that he was never truly saved.

setst777 said:
Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

And, as I understand Scripture, those who endure to the end do so because they are enabled by the Holy Spirit to do so (Philippians 2:13). It is the Spirit who causes the genuine believer to endure, not the Self-will of the believer.

I haven't the time to go through the rest of the Scripture quotations you've offered. As you can see, though, we don't read them the same way at all.

setst777 said:
God surely does sanctify us – but this sanctification is for those who continue to remain faithful expressed in abstaining from evil deeds. Not everyone who was given the Spirit by faith will remain faithful to live a sanctified life, otherwise, why would Paul warn all the Churches about falling away, and about continuing in the faith to be saved?

But we are, in Christ, already fully, perfectly sanctified, which we must be in order for God to accept any of us. And we were placed, by faith, into this spiritual position in Christ when we had not a single righteous deed to offer to God that He would accept (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:9-18). We were perfectly sanctified positionally, in Christ, but were completely without sanctification in our daily condition. If God could accept us fully under this circumstance, why does it change so that the believer must now add their efforts to live sanctified in order to continue to be saved? How is salvation, salvation if we must save ourselves by our faithfulness and sanctified living? Christ has not truly saved us; we must save ourselves.

setst777 said:
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB)
3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who do not know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit.

Does verse 7 say that God in response to the unsanctified living of the believer rejects the believer who, in Christ, is perfectly sanctified? No.

setst777 said:
Paul, in all his letters to the churches, never expressed that the faith of those he was writing to was guaranteed to the end, and Paul never taught that faith was guaranteed – not even for himself, not even to Timothy, whom Paul personally taught.

Where does the faith to believe originate? In us? As I pointed out at the beginning of this post, this is impossible. We were too caught up in sin, to weak in-and-of-ourselves, to generate from within ourselves the wherewithal even to want to look at God. He must give us "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:25); He must draw us to Christ (John 6:44); He must justify, sanctify and redeem us in and through Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:30).

Romans 12:3 (NASB)
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

We work out only what God has first worked into us. This is the dynamic Paul describes in Philippians 2:12-13. This is includes our faith and faithfulness.

setst777 said:
setst777 said: ↑
Regarding the Spirit...

The Spirit will come and go as He pleases, but has a purpose for all that He does in accordance with God's Word.

John 3:8 (WEB) 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

I addressed this already in my last post to you. It is not, I think, saying what you think it is saying.

setst777 said:
Would you agree that Spiritual Life (regeneration) that the indwelling Spirit gives the believer is only a reality as we are faithful to walk in the Spirit God gave us?

It is a spiritual reality whether we believe it or not. This spiritual reality shapes our daily living, however, when, by faith, we begin to stand on the truth of the accomplished facts of our life, our spiritual identity, in Christ.

setst777 · May 26, 2021

setst777 said: ↑
True,
“If we died with him” is aorist tense.
"we will also live with Him" is future.

If this is referring to death to the old life of sin, then we should have life now, not just the future; so, don’t you find it unusual that “we will also live with him” is in the future tense, meaning live physically with him forever?

aiki said:
No, not at all. As I was indicating in my last post, it is because we have eternal, spiritual life now that we have the expectation of eternal life in the hereafter.

I can see your logic. Good Christians scholars disagree on the meaning of 2 Timothy 2:11 – whether that “died with him” is referring to dying to our sinful life (sanctification) or physical death.

The surrounding context within 2nd Timothy indicates to me a physical struggle of faith to the end, even onto death, is in view (2 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Timothy 2:9-10; 2 Timothy 4:6) and so a physical death seems correct in view of the context. Even so, I will not pursue this verse further, since there remains so much disagreement amongst some of the best New Testament scholars.

setst777 said: ↑
Would you agree that “WE” is referring to the Christians, inclusive with Paul who wrote it?

aiki said:
Yes, but "we" included, I think, any who would hear or read his words - even the "tares," the "false brethren," within the Early Church. In fact, I believe these sorts of statements from Paul, contrasting the saved (those who live with Him) with the unsaved (those who deny Him), are aimed particularly at these very people - people participating in the life and work of the Church but who are not really born-again children of God.

While you may see that “we” is referring to Christians and non-Christians, in that both would hear the message, the context is clear that Paul’s instruction is for the believers, that Timothy was to pass on to the church. Paul was not writing to the tares but to Christians.

Also the context of 2 Timothy 2:10-14 makes clear that this instruction and warning is for Christians. For instance, here is verse 14:

2 Timothy 2:14 (WEB) Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don’t argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.

Timothy is to remind them. This indicates that these are Christians who come to church to hear the instruction Timothy gives them. This view is in harmony with the fact that “WE” is used throughout verses 11-13.

setst777 said: ↑
IF so, do you see any guarantees in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 that we will die with him, or endure with him?

Notice the “WE” also shows us that we are not guaranteed to remain faithful, as the possibility exists that “WE” will deny him, and so be denied by Lord Jesus.

aiki said:
The statement of the passage in 2 Timothy 2 is considered to be a sort of creed, a formalized declaration of truth, common to the Christians of the time. I think it does offer a guarantee implicitly, if one grants that those to whom Paul was writing were indeed "chosen" by God, as Paul indicates in verse 10. There's quite a lot suggested in that word, I think (Ephesians 1:4; Romans 8:29, etc.), including a permanency of the genuine believer's redemption and adoption into God's family.

I don't think, as I already explained, that Paul is offering a warning or threat to Timothy (and other truly saved readers of his letter) but is simply delineating and confirming the difference between the saved and the lost by way of quotation of a common Early Christian creedal parallelism. Rather than suggesting that a genuine Christian can lose their salvation by failing to remain faithful, he seems to me to be indicating that because the born-again Christian has died with Christ, they will also live eternally with him. In contrast, those who have denied Christ and not died with him (the unsaved), do not have this guarantee of eternal life but can, instead, anticipate God's denial of them at the Final Judgment. (ala Matthew 7:21-23)

The context is clear that there is no indication of a change of audience in the “WE” that are addressed. All of 2 Timothy 2:10-14 is clearly written to Timothy to share with the Church for their instruction and warning that Timothy is to remind the Church (verse 14).

setst777 said: ↑
This would agree with all the Scriptures that reveal and warn to us that, unless we die faithful to our Lord, we will never be saved eternally. The Letters to all the Churches provide no guarantee that we will remain faithful until physical death, although that is the hope of God and the Apostolic Writers.

aiki said:
This, to me, sounds like works-salvation.

Essentially, you've made the faithfulness of the believer the key, the necessary means, to salvation; everything regarding their salvation hangs on the believer's ability to remain faithful to God. I don't mean to be inflammatory, but this sounds blasphemous to me: It makes the believer ultimately the Saviour, not Christ.

We possess salvation by faith. That is what “through faith” means. We possess salvation by faith. “through faith” is a prepositional phrase showing possession.

So are you saying you choose to reject or reinterpret all those Scriptures teaching and warning about our responsibility to remain faithful to the end to receive eternal life, calling it “works-salvation?”

aiki said:
Scripture makes very clear that salvation is offered to the lost when they are in a state of utter weakness, unable in any measure to save themselves.

I cannot imagine anyone disagrees. Not by works are we saved. We possess the gracious gift of salvation by faith – a Gospel Faith. That is how we save ourselves, as the Scriptures state.

We appropriate the saving grace of God to ourselves by faith in Lord Jesus that is offered to all people without discrimination to all people.

Acts 2:40 (WEB) 40 With many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation!”

God shows no favoritism.

So, as the Scriptures teach, we save ourselves by a repentant faith in Lord Jesus.

aiki said:
Romans 5:6
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Christ Jesus did die for the ungodly. That is the first half of the Gospel. His death will only save those who believe. That is the second part (John 3:16).

aiki said:
Titus 3:3
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

When we repent to God, and believe in Lord Jesus, we now commit to deny ourselves and follow Lord Jesus, just as we are instructed to do in the Gospel. Yet, believers are not guaranteed that they will never sin in the ways listed, or fall into temptation, or fall away from the faith. That is why so many warnings in Scripture exist to be careful to remain in Christ, so we won’t be cut off.

aiki said:
Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

These verses describe the state of all the lost, prior to their salvation. Because the impotence of the lost is so total, so profound, God must move first toward them, drawing them and illuminating their minds to the truth of the Gospel, giving repentance to them (2 Timothy 2:25; John 6:44) and showing them the depth of His great love for them (1 John 4:16-19).

How does God draw us according to the Gospel? Is it not by the Word about Christ, the Spirit working with the Word, to convict the world? Romans 10:17

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 16:8 (WEB) 8 When he (the Holy Spirit) has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment...

Yet, many will resist and refuse the drawing and illuminating of the Word and Spirit, or will fall away at a future time, just as the Scriptures teach throughout.

Matthew 22:3, 8-9 (WEB)
3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they refused to come.

John 3:18 (WEB) 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (WEB)
10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Acts 7:51-52 (WEB)
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit!

God grants repentance to all but the choice is still ours to repent. Why?

The ransom was paid for all (1 Timothy 2:6),
God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4),
God’s intention is to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).
We appropriate that gracious gift of salvation to ourselves by faith (John 3:16)
Many will resist the Spirit and Word and be lost (Matthew 22:8-9; Acts 7:51-52)

Do you believe that God desires all to be saved?

Do you believe that the ransom was paid for all?

Do you believe God’s intention is to have mercy on all?

Or do you believe God discriminates, limiting His grace, mercy, and salvation to those few that God mysteriously elects to save and give repentance and faith that guarantees their salvation?

Even Christians, who have the Spirit, can refuse God and so will not escape the judgment of God.

Hebrews 12:25 See that you do not refuse him who speaks. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven

continued

setst777 · May 26, 2021

aiki said:
Coming into relationship with God requires perfection on our part. This is God's standard for fellowship with Himself, for adoption into His family and kingdom. We must be as He is in our moral condition, perfectly holy, perfectly righteous. But as the verses above declare, no one can meet this standard. And so, God imparts to us the perfection we need through the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ. By faith, we receive in Christ his perfect righteousness and in receiving his righteousness, we are also perfectly sanctified (1 Corinthians 1:30). We must be; for God will not accept us otherwise

Who will receive His perfection and righteousness?

1 John 3:7 (WEB) 7 Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Who are the ones cleansed from all sin by Christ perfect death?

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

aiki said:
Since our acceptance by God is entirely contingent upon Christ's perfection, since all that makes us acceptable to God is derived from the Saviour, why do we think we can contribute to his perfection? What can be added to the perfect righteousness and sanctifying life of Christ that is given to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit? If his life is truly perfect, nothing. We are accepted in the Beloved (Ephesians 1:7) and only in him.

Nice words, but that is not the Gospel. Christ’s perfection, being justified, is the possession of those who repentant of all sins and believe in Lord Jesus, walking by His Spirit.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 (WEB) 16 Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

A true Gospel faith includes repentance - sanctifying our entire lives to God - just as the Scriptures teach us. This is the only faith by which God will cleanse us from our sins, and save us.

aiki said:
Is God not totally satisfied with Christ's perfection? How could He not be? But this is what is implied when we seek to add our own effort to Christ's and make our abilities, our effort, our faithfulness, crucial to our salvation.

Faith is not a work.

Works, as Paul taught, is when we attempt earn salvation by good works, obeying the Law.

Faith, which includes repentance, is a commitment to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life, which is the new life in Christ Jesus. Faith, therefore, is opposite of works.

Paul explains the difference between faith and works in the following:

Galatians 2:15-20 (WEB) 15 “We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law. 17 But if while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a law-breaker. 19 For I, through the law, died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

That is the difference between works and faith.

Works, as Paul teaches here, does not change our sinful nature, and so doing works accomplishes nothing to our salvation.
By faith, we have repented, and so are crucified with Christ. We are now living by faith in Lord Jesus unto a sanctified life of righteousness as slaves of Lord Jesus.

So we are not saved by works. The new life of salvation is only possible by faith.

This teaching of Paul is nothing new, since he teaches the same thing to all the Churches he wrote to.

Romans 6:15-18 (WEB)
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Therefore, Christ’s perfection is ours by faith – living sanctified lives onto righteousness. That is the new life.

That new life is not guaranteed unless the Christian continues in the same faith that he had when receiving the Holy Spirit – a repentant and obedient faith, following Lord Jesus.

John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain (abide) in his love.

aiki said:
In light of these things, when I encounter verses that you think warn of salvation lost, I see only warnings to the lost, or warnings of the loss of the benefits of fellowship with God, or of the generally deleterious effects of sin. My salvation, however, is eternally secure because it does not depend upon me one whit. It is only and entirely because of Christ that I am saved. He is my salvation, not my work, not my faithfulness. (1 John 5:11; John 14:6)

True salvation is not by works.

I wonder why you keep arguing that point. Most Christian denominations throughout the world understand that salvation is not by works, otherwise they would not be included as a true Christian denomination.

Most Christians know that faith (a faith that continues) is not a work; rather, as Scripture teach us, faith is the opposite of works. Nevertheless, a true faith is demonstrated by a sanctified life by following Lord Jesus, obeying all His commands. That is the new life in Christ that is the opposite of works.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Here are the Passages you gave to “prove” your doctrine that you are not saved by your faithfulness…

aiki said:
1 John 5:11 (WEB) 11 The testimony is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

True, this life is in His Son. Which life is that? That life is a sanctified life onto righteousness, walking by His Spirit. Is that not the new life taught all through the New Testament?

A sanctified life is the new life in Christ.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

How do we receive that Life in the Son? Only by faith, by which we follow Him, do we receive His Spiritual life. To believe, and to follow are continuous – not a one-time action.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes [continuous] him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

John 8:12 (WEB) 12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. [Isaiah 60:1] He who follows [continuous] me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

So how do we receive spiritual life from God?
What do the Scriptures actually teach in context?

Notice we must believe, following Lord Jesus, so that we may have life in the Spirit.

aiki said:
John 14:6 (WEB) 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.

True, we come to the Father by faith in the Son. The only ones who will receive eternal life are those who will hear Lord Jesus and follow Him. That is the faith of the Gospel.

John 10:27-28 (WEB) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

I am curious. How do the Passages you provided prove that you are not given spiritual life by your faithfulness?

All the Scriptures teach that we are given life in the Son by believing – a faith that continues demonstrated by following Him to receive life.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes (continuous), for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

The Scriptures command us to remain faithful to the end to receive eternal life.

setst777 said: ↑
For instance, the following Scriptures show that unless we remain faithful to death to our Lord, we will not be saved eternally in the end. All the Scriptures are written to Christians as warnings, admonitions, instructions, and commands.

1 Peter 1:9 Young's Literal Translation
9 receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls

aiki said:
1 Peter 1:8-9 (NASB)
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

I am astonished that this is a passage you think warns of lost salvation. To me, it reads as a great encouragement to the believer; it is a passage of hope, describing the final, eternal condition of the saints, the "end of their faith." This is where my salvation ends up, the passage tells me, this is the culmination of my born-again status. There is no threat here, only a joyful promise. How sad that you see a threat.

What this Passage shows me is that we are to continue in that faith to the end to receive eternal life. You call that works, but God calls that faith.

Nothing astonishing about that, as all the Scriptures keep teaching us that we must remain faithful, which is, to continue in the faith, or to endure in the faith, to receive eternal life.

All the Scriptures teaching that we must continue, and remain in, the faith to be saved are not threatening if you continue to believe demonstrated by following Lord Jesus as His disciple. Even so, we should always have a Godly fear, knowing that God is also a consuming fire that will judge those who disobey the Gospel.

continued

setst777 · May 26, 2021

setst777 said: ↑
Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

aiki said:
What does it mean to "come short of a promise of entering into his rest"? Is the writer of Hebrews talking about salvation?

I don't see how this could be the case in light of the OT story to which his comments are connected. When the Israelites came to the land of Canaan, to the borders of the Promised Land, and refused to go in and possess it, what happened? They were barred from the land by God, and made to wander in the wilderness for forty years. Did God abandon the Israelites when He barred them from Canaan? Did He forsake His Chosen People? Did they lose their relationship to God as a result of their unbelief? NO. God remained with His faithless people, protecting and providing for them still in the wilderness!

What, then, does Hebrews 4:1 mean? In light of the story to which it is directly connected, it simply can't be speaking of salvation. Instead, I believe it is speaking of fellowship with God. The "rest" of verse 1 is the product of fellowship with God which is prevented by unbelief. In fellowship with God through Christ, there is a spiritual "Promised Land" for the Christian believer, "overflowing with milk and honey," spiritually-speaking. But a believer can only partake of it as they, by faith, enter into it. (1 Peter 1:4; Hebrews 11:6; 2 Corinthians 5:7)

Here, too, then, I see, not a threat of lost salvation, of a lost relationship with God, but of lost fellowship, lost intimate communion with Him (and all the good things that spring from that communion).

You are using your human reasoning to respond as, regrettably, you often do.

Yes, entering His rest is eternal life when you read the context, even within Hebrews 4.

“Hebrews 4:8” is likely a key Scripture for you to understand what is being taught. Verse 8 refers to Joshua and the place of rest being the physical Promised Land. That truth is compared to the Eternal Place of Rest of God. Do not take my word for it. Hebrews 4 is so clear and plain to understand that I doubt anyone could get this wrong.

Hebrews 4:8
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about ANOTHER DAY.
9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

So, there remains another place of rest – not like the one Joshua gave Israel, but rather, a Sabbath-rest – God’s eternal place of rest – that WE, who remain faithful, hope to enter one day. This is the eternal place of rest where we will rest from our works – not like the rest that Joshua gave them in the promised land.

Hebrews 11:13-16
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and embraced them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 If indeed they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had enough time to return. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

So, yes, Hebrews 4:1 and Hebrews 4:11 are both referring to eternal life, in God’s eternal place of rest, which only those who remain faithful to the end will inherit. As Hebrews 4 teaches and warns, the possibility exists that they could come short or fall away.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Somehow you missed the whole context and so misunderstand that we could come up short of the promise to enter that rest.

And so, we must be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example as Israel did.

This is a warning given to Christians, because the possibility exists that we will fall into temptation and sin, just as the Israelites did, and could lose out on the gracious gift of Eternal Life, and so not be able to enter God’s place of rest.

setst777 · May 26, 2021

setst777 said: ↑
1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

aiki said:
1 Timothy 4:16 (NASB)
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Is the man who wrote Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 and 2 Timothy 1:9 now contradicting himself? Does Paul teach here that Timothy can save himself, that Timothy is his own Saviour? If one takes a reading of this verse unmitigated by the rest of Scripture, this is exactly what Paul seems to be saying. Are you willing to have Scripture stand in contradiction to itself?

No contradiction. The Scriptures do not contradict themselves. Paul definitely teaches in all his writings that by remaining faithful, by living in obedience to the Word, we inherit eternal life. That is what Paul is also instructing Timothy. That is how we save ourselves – not that we earn salvation, but that by our faithfulness to the end to live by His Word and Spirit, we are living a new life, and so will inherit salvation.

In Ephesians 2:8-9, we receive the gracious gift of salvation through faith.

In Titus 3:5, shows we are not saved by our works, but through the regeneration of Holy Spirit whom God poured out on us.

In context, we receive the Spirit, and the life of the Spirit, by faith. Faith means to continually believe or drink:

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! (continuous) 38 He who believes (continuous) in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

To be regenerated is to have Spiritual life only as we drink or believe.

We have Spiritual life only by a continued faith, which is to drink, walk, live by, and sow to, the Spirit we received, John 7:37-39; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9.

That is how we are regenerated.

The Passages I listed are in agreement that we receive the life of the Spirit (regeneration) as we, by faith, drink, walk, live, and sow to the Spirit who indwells the believer. Why? That is what the Scriptures teach – we are give life in the Spirit as we faithfully drink, walk, live by, and sow to the Spirit.

John 4:13-14 (WEB)
13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

aiki said:
2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

No one is saved by works, but by faith. Faith is not a work.

aiki said:
Acts 4:12 (NASB)
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Salvation is in Lord Jesus, and is receive by faith (John 3:16)

And the power of God onto salvation is kept by faith:

1 Peter 1:4-5 (KJV)
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

aiki said:
In light of these - and other equally explicit verses - I can't accept that Paul is telling Timothy that his salvation is his own responsibility, that Timothy can actually be his own Saviour. What does Paul mean, then? I like the NASB's rendering: "ensure salvation." Inasmuch as true belief, heart belief, always results in corresponding action, such action becomes an external representation of an internal state-of-affairs. One can say, then, that teaching and doing the truth, persevering in these things, as every genuine believer will, "ensures" one's salvation, or "certifies" one is truly saved. But this is as far as I believe Scripture allows me to go in understanding Paul's words. As well, verse 16 is an injunction to Timothy to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Imagine the damage to the faith of the brethren over whom Timothy was set as an Elder if he acted hypocritically, teaching one thing but doing another! Or worse, warping the doctrines of the faith and teaching falsely. Of course, in doing so, Timothy would reveal that he was never truly saved.

Salvation is God’s work in those who live by faith. That is how we save ourselves according to the Scriptures.

The Scriptures say that we save ourselves by faith, and a continued faith, in Lord Jesus demonstrated in obedience to His Word. Who am I to argue with God?

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Faith is not a work. Faith does include repentance, and so is a sanctified life onto God, following Lord Jesus. We save ourselves by continuing in that faith. That is the new life in Christ.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

setst777 said: ↑
Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

aiki said:
And, as I understand Scripture, those who endure to the end do so because they are enabled by the Holy Spirit to do so (Philippians 2:13). It is the Spirit who causes the genuine believer to endure, not the Self-will of the believer.

The Spirit leads us as we follow by faith – as we drink, live, walk, and sow to the Spirit.

Faith is our responsibility before a holy God.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Christians, having the Spirit, does not guarantee that they will remain faithful to live by the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up

Not every Christian will sow to the Spirit. Christians will grieve the Spirit (Ephesians 4:30-32), quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22), and insult the Spirit (Hebrews 10:29-31) who indwells the believer, which can lead to condemnation.

Some will fall away or be deceived.

1 Timothy 1:18-20 (WEB)18 I commit this instruction to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which were given to you before, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away made a shipwreck concerning the faith

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

None of those Scriptures about falling away, or departing from the faith, or being deceived, say that they were never in the faith to begin with. Rather, just the opposite.

And there are so many more Scriptures like that, which I have repeatedly quoted for you, showing us that the Spirit indwelling the believer does not guarantee that the believer will continue in the faith, and that is why WE are commanded to endure in the faith to be saved eternally.

setst777 said: ↑
God surely does sanctify us – but this sanctification is for those who continue to remain faithful expressed in abstaining from evil deeds. Not everyone who was given the Spirit by faith will remain faithful to live a sanctified life, otherwise, why would Paul warn all the Churches about falling away, and about continuing in the faith to be saved?

aiki said:
But we are, in Christ, already fully, perfectly sanctified, which we must be in order for God to accept any of us.

Only by faith are we sanctified. Only by repentance and faith demonstrated by a sanctified life onto God are we declared righteous, and receive Christ’s perfection.

1 John 1:7 (WEB) 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 3:7-12 (WEB)
7 Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

No guarantees are made in Scripture that we will walk in the light of righteousness to the end. They would not be warned not to be led astray if that were not a genuine possibility.

God’s love is perfected in us as we keep His Word.

1 John 2:4-5 (WEB) 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word.

A true Gospel Faith is always demonstrated in obedience. So we who believe are to keep His Word.

aiki said:
And we were placed, by faith, into this spiritual position in Christ when we had not a single righteous deed to offer to God that He would accept (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:9-18). We were perfectly sanctified positionally, in Christ, but were completely without sanctification in our daily condition.

Only by faith are we placed in a spiritual position with Christ. The Spirit only indwells us by a repentant and obedient faith.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

continued

setst777 · May 26, 2021

aiki said:
If God could accept us fully under this circumstance, why does it change so that the believer must now add their efforts to live sanctified in order to continue to be saved? How is salvation, salvation if we must save ourselves by our faithfulness and sanctified living? Christ has not truly saved us; we must save ourselves.

Faith, demonstrated by hearing Lord Jesus and following Him, is how we save ourselves.

That does not mean salvation is from us, but that, through faith we possess the gracious gift of salvation. “through faith” or “by faith” are prepositional genitive phrases showing possession.

We possess God’s gracious gift of salvation by faith, and remaining faithful to the end demonstrated in a sanctified life onto God, living, drinking, walking by His Spirit.

Galatians 5:24-25
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

We see no guarantee in Scripture that the believer will continue to renounce the flesh and its passions and lusts, or that the believer will continue to walk by the Spirit. That is why the Apostle Paul is telling us to walk in the Spirit.

The churches Paul wrote to are examples that show this very thing; in that, not every Christian will remain faithful to renounce the passions of the flesh by living and walking by the Spirit. The churches Paul wrote to had sin issues.

We see the same issues in the churches Lord Jesus wrote to in the Book of Revelation. That is why Lord Jesus told them to repent, and that only those who overcome will be saved in the end.

The Scriptures continually command, warn, and admonish, to remain faithful to inherit eternal life.

We are commanded to walk by the Spirit, so that we may have Spiritual life.

The Spiritual Life of the Spirit is regeneration – only by faith, demonstrated by drinking, living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit.

setst777 said: ↑
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB)
3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who do not know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit.

aiki said:
Does verse 7 say that God in response to the unsanctified living of the believer rejects the believer who, in Christ, is perfectly sanctified? No.

Yes, it actually does. IF you reject God (verse 7), by not living a sanctified life before Him, how then will God declare you sanctified? How then are you saved if you reject God by living in any sin?

When you commit sin, you are choosing that sin over God, which is why, when we commit any sin, we are not sanctified, because we have rejected God by that sin. So our actual sanctification is essential to be saved and, by our repentance, cleansed by God of all sins, we are declared righteous.

Romans 6:22 (NIV)
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

If you have not committed your life to being a slave of God, living a sanctified life before Him, then you are not in the true faith of the Gospel.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

Do you believe you are to be a disciple of Lord Jesus, following and obeying Him, to be saved?

How will one’s unsanctified life result in eternal life, when the faith of the Gospel demands that you become a slave of God? Therefore, by faith, we are to be a disciple of Lord Jesus, living a sanctified life onto God to receive salvation.

Sanctification is the only faith God accepts to be saved (Romans 6:22).

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB)
24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

The Christian is commanded to walk by the Spirit to receive life.

That is how God sanctifies us – only by faith as the Gospel defines it.

If you are not a disciple of Jesus, you are not in the faith of the Gospel.

setst777 said: ↑
Paul, in all his letters to the churches, never expressed that the faith of those he was writing to was guaranteed to the end, and Paul never taught that faith was guaranteed – not even for himself, not even to Timothy, whom Paul personally taught.

aiki said:
Where does the faith to believe originate? In us? As I pointed out at the beginning of this post, this is impossible. We were too caught up in sin, to weak in-and-of-ourselves, to generate from within ourselves the wherewithal even to want to look at God. He must give us "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:25); He must draw us to Christ (John 6:44); He must justify, sanctify and redeem us in and through Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:30).

Do you think God mysteriously elects some people to grant repentance and faith and not others?
Do you think God shows favoritism?

If so, then why does God desire all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), and to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32), and invites all to receive salvation (Matthew 22:9)?

Do you believe God limits his mercy and grace to a few that God mysteriously elects to grant faith to?

If so, how does your doctrine harmonize with God’s desires to save all, and to have mercy on all?

We are drawn to Christ by the Gospel that is preached. Those who repent and believe, after learning the Gospel are the ones redeemed and saved by Christ (John 3:16).

The Gospel is the invitation of God to all people:

Matthew 22:8-9 (WEB) 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Isaiah 45:21-22 (WEB)
21 There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior. There is no one besides me.
22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

God desires and calls all people to himself to be saved, but God will only save those who will believe in His Son – that is God’s will (John 6:39-40). So we appropriate that salvation to ourselves by faith, as the Gospel declares. [John 3:16].

Many will refuse the drawing of God and remain lost. But to those who believe, they were drawn by the worldwide calling of the Gospel and the Spirit.

aiki said:
Romans 12:3 (NASB)
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

I wonder why you keep quoting this Passage, when you know, and everyone else knows, that the context refers to the gifts of the Spirit to those already saved and who already have the Spirit dwelling in them?

aiki said:
Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

This Passage too, you keep quoting, but just about everyone knows that this Passage is referring to the fruits of the Spirit of those who are already abiding in Christ Jesus by faith (John 15:1-10).

The context could not be any more plain to understand.

aiki said:
We work out only what God has first worked into us. This is the dynamic Paul describes in Philippians 2:12-13. This is includes our faith and faithfulness.

Are you saying that God’s work in us is conditional upon our faithfulness in working out what God wills for us?

OR, are you saying that because God first works in us, that we can do nothing else but be faithful to work out what God wills for us - guaranteed?

If you say the second question is true, I wonder why Christians fall into sin or temptation, or do not always live the life they are supposed to.

I wonder why all the churches Paul wrote to had sin issues that Paul addressed and warned about.

I wonder why the Scriptures keep warning and admonishing us to remain faithful to the end to receive eternal life,

So, rather, only as we live and walk by His Spirit living in us are we living out the will of God for us, just as the Scriptures teach us.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

Notice we only have Spiritual Life as we live, walk, and sow to the Spirit. Regeneration of the Holy Spirit is only possible as we drink, live, walk, and sow to the Spirit.

setst777 said: ↑
Regarding the Spirit...
The Spirit will come and go as He pleases, but has a purpose for all that He does in accordance with God's Word.

John 3:8 (WEB) 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

aiki said:
I addressed this already in my last post to you. It is not, I think, saying what you think it is saying.

You might think you have addressed it, but you cannot refute the fact that the Spirit only gives us spiritual life as we faithfully live and walk by the Spirit that indwells us by the same faith we had when we received the Spirit – which is a faith demonstrated in repentance and obedience to our Lord.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

The Scriptures offer no guarantee that our faith will continue in obedience as the Gospel demands, but that is the faith of the Gospel – a sanctified life of obedience to Lord Jesus:

Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

John 15:8-10 (WEB) 8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

continued

setst777 · May 26, 2021

setst777 said: ↑
Would you agree that Spiritual Life (regeneration) that the indwelling Spirit gives the believer is only a reality as we are faithful to walk in the Spirit God gave us?

aiki said:
It is a spiritual reality whether we believe it or not. This spiritual reality shapes our daily living, however, when, by faith, we begin to stand on the truth of the accomplished facts of our life, our spiritual identity, in Christ.

How is our spiritual identity in Christ manifest?

John 15:8-10 (WEB)
8 “In this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain (abide) in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain (abide) in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.”

Lord Jesus offers no guarantee to His disciples (Christians) that they will remain in His love. Some, or many, will end up being cut off and cast into the fire.

So the Spiritual Reality is realizing that, if we claim to believe in Lord Jesus, then we had better be living by His Spirit so that we may live.

Romans 8:12-13 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation — but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

zoidar · May 26, 2021

this is not my name said:
wondering if anyone has been through experience of grieving Holy Spirit to where the blessed Holy Spirit left them, and got back with Jesus Christ in fellowship somehow. there is more to this, but that is simplified version for now.

I don't know exactly what happened in my life, but I think I did just that, quench the Holy Spirit. My faith was practically gone, my heart dark and evil. I even thought I had blasphemed the Holy Spirit. This is like ten years ago now. I was told by a Lutheran friend to trust that I was forgiven no matter how I felt inside, a fact he said nothing could change. Eventually I took that to heart, and on a day of mercy, Jesus gave light back to my heart. Impossible for us, yes, for God, no! My mistake was that I didn't understand how big God is in mercy.

Gregory Thompson · May 26, 2021

this is not my name said:
wondering if anyone has been through experience of grieving Holy Spirit to where the blessed Holy Spirit left them, and got back with Jesus Christ in fellowship somehow. there is more to this, but that is simplified version for now.

If we sin too much, the opaque paranormal substance this creates within us blocks out our perception of God. As the proverbs says, a man is filled with his ways.

More specifically, if we focus too much on church, bible, or other religious things so it becomes an idol, then this opaque material is produced within us and it's like God has disappeared. However, in truth, we just blinded ourselves.

Confessing sins helps to dissolve this opaque paranormal (not spiritual) substance, and the bible also says as much. Since it acts like the way bible describes sin, then it is sin and can be dealt with according to the teachings.

NBB · May 28, 2021

Job405 said:
I believe I have maybe done the unforgivable sin. I became a Christian in spring 2019 and I did fall in love with God but didn't have the best relationship with Him. I still sinned and was disobedient to God, He wanted me to do some things and I didn't do them. As a result demons began attacking me with evil intrusive thoughts.

Then one evening in October 2019 I got a very strange intrusive thought that stood out from the mish mash of blasphemies. It was something like "Obama is a vampire". I got the stupid idea into my head, "This is a silly thought. What would happen if I said it out loud?", and so I did. I think my sin was threefold: I lied, tested God and obeyed a demon.

Almost instantly I felt a feeling of terror beyond anything I've ever felt, like I had done something very bad, and the word "UNFORGIVABLE" appeared in the eye of my mind. Since then I have been tormented by demons, even until this very day. It's like there's one demon inside my head and it can read my thoughts, and I can talk to it through my inner monologue. Mostly what it does is torment me with blasphemous thoughts and it tries to demoralize me, to make me think its all over and I should give up. I do get some rest while sleeping, thanks to God, but it keeps going all day long.

I'm not sure I have really heard anything from God since that faithful day. And I don't know if the Holy Spirit can share the same body with a demon. Because this demon can control my body if I allow it, I have tested this (probably not a good idea).

God doesn't seem to hear my prayers anymore. I would ask you guys to ask God what my situation is with Him. Tell me if He allows you to do it. I just want to know the truth! My name is Johan and I am from Finland, if that helps your prayers. Thanks.

Brother just my humble opinion here, don't give up, you need deliverance i don't know if you can seek easily this kind of help, but remember that God forgives, sometimes we give terrain to the devil, and we must get it back, and the sins.... God forgives them. Just stay with Jesus. The holy spirit can be quenched but he doesn't leave you.

Dave G. · May 28, 2021

A lot of people think they and their problems are bigger than God. Their God is too small. But our God is bigger than the universe itself, heck He only brought it to existence by speaking. IE don't limit your own possibilities with God but SEEK Him. Don't dwell on the problem and self but on the cure, which is Him ! All this takes is a change of mind set. I'm not dwelling on this but seeking Him and His word.

We love to let the enemy win the battle and he already lost the entire war the day Jesus' buried body began to breath. Believe it, trust it.

Broken Fence · May 28, 2021

this is not my name said:
wondering if anyone has been through experience of grieving Holy Spirit to where the blessed Holy Spirit left them, and got back with Jesus Christ in fellowship somehow. there is more to this, but that is simplified version for now.

Isaiah 30:15

SunshineHollyDay · Jul 4, 2022

Chris35 said:
I went through something similar. I believed the holy spirit left. It wasnt untill 15 years later that i began seeing the truth.

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What your experiencing at the moment, i dont believe it comes from God. Satan hates God, and God loves people more then we can comprehend. Now satan cant do anything to God himself, so what does he do? Satan loves to attack his children, especially new ones that are yet to build a foundation. He tries to make us believe we have been seperated them from God's love any way he can.

I have been attacked many times in my life, i know he can bring in bad feelings, to the point of panic and fear. Satan found an opening and is using it, to make you believe God has left you

The good news is, nothing can seperate you from God. When Satan attacks, he is full of lies, gods word is truth. Rebuke the lies and stand firm on the truth. Keep moving forward, and it will pass.

Remember Jesus has conquered Satan, he can only hold you down for awhile, and put stumbling blocks on your path. In the end, your in gods hands and nothing can snatch you away. You will always find your way back to him.

Did you feel like you lost emotions/conviction of sin?

Can You Get the Holy Spirit Back? How?

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God with us!

SunshineHollyDay

Similar threads