Queen of heaven

dóxatotheó · May 24, 2021

Lost4words said:

note i believe she is the queen not by this verse tho

renniks · May 24, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
why not is there a reason?

Because she's not. It's not biblical.

dóxatotheó · May 24, 2021

renniks said:
Because she's not. It's not biblical.

explicitly biblical is as good as beng implicitly biblical

renniks · May 24, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
explicitly biblical is as good as beng implicitly biblical

Sounds backward. And it's neither. It's a creation of the church, not a biblical concept.

dóxatotheó · May 24, 2021

renniks said:
Sounds backward. And it's neither. It's a creation of the church, not a biblical concept.

In the Jewish culture, a Davidic King would have his mother as Queen rather than his wife, because he rarely had one wife, but many wives. Sharing power with many wives would be much too difficult, but he had only one mother and she was given the title of Queen. Almost every time a new king is introduced in 1 and 2 Kings, the king’s mother is mentioned. She was a member of the royal court, wore a crown, sat on a throne, and shared in the king’s reign (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20). She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, it makes sense that His mother would be called Queen.
Psalm 45 depicts Christ as King and at his side is a Queen.
PSALM 45:9
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir
So who is this Queen? Scripture puts forth Mary as our Queen in a grandiose description found in Revelation. In a vision of heaven, we are shown that the Ark of the Covenant is present in the temple.
REVELATION 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.
The mention of the Ark is odd, since it had been done away with when the Glory of God had left that Ark, but the Orthodox teaching is that Mary is a type of the new Ark. This is further expressed by the verses that follow showing a sign of a woman in heaven.
REVELATION 12:1
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
And then to specifically designate who this woman is,
REVELATION 12:5
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne.
The male child described is Jesus, which implies that the woman is Mary.
Some will argue that the woman is not Mary, but Israel, as some of the verses do not appear to reference Mary. And they would be correct. There are many prophecies that have multiple meanings or multiple references. A good example is a prophecy many Christians are familiar with.
ISAIAH 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
We all are familiar with this verse and know it refers to the virgin birth. But when you read more of the prophecy it gets a bit more complicated.
ISAIAH 7:14-18
Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”
It would be a strange theology to teach that there was a time when Jesus didn’t know how to refuse the evil and choose the good. This prophecy was also partially fulfilled in the time before Christ’s birth when a child named Immanuel was born as a sign that God was still with Israel.(Isaiah 8:8) Given the way this very popular prophecy was used to speak of Christ in the New Testament as well as Immanuel in the Old Testament, it is reasonable that the prophecy in Revelation could be used the same way. It can describe both Israel and Mary so its not a created concept its an implicit biblical concept quite ancient too

renniks · May 24, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
In the Jewish culture, a Davidic King would have his mother as Queen rather than his wife, because he rarely had one wife, but many wives. Sharing power with many wives would be much too difficult, but he had only one mother and she was given the title of Queen. Almost every time a new king is introduced in 1 and 2 Kings, the king’s mother is mentioned. She was a member of the royal court, wore a crown, sat on a throne, and shared in the king’s reign (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20). She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, it makes sense that His mother would be called Queen.
Psalm 45 depicts Christ as King and at his side is a Queen.
PSALM 45:9
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir
So who is this Queen? Scripture puts forth Mary as our Queen in a grandiose description found in Revelation. In a vision of heaven, we are shown that the Ark of the Covenant is present in the temple.
REVELATION 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.
The mention of the Ark is odd, since it had been done away with when the Glory of God had left that Ark, but the Orthodox teaching is that Mary is a type of the new Ark. This is further expressed by the verses that follow showing a sign of a woman in heaven.
REVELATION 12:1
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
And then to specifically designate who this woman is,
REVELATION 12:5
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne.
The male child described is Jesus, which implies that the woman is Mary.
Some will argue that the woman is not Mary, but Israel, as some of the verses do not appear to reference Mary. And they would be correct. There are many prophecies that have multiple meanings or multiple references. A good example is a prophecy many Christians are familiar with.
ISAIAH 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
We all are familiar with this verse and know it refers to the virgin birth. But when you read more of the prophecy it gets a bit more complicated.
ISAIAH 7:14-18
Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”
It would be a strange theology to teach that there was a time when Jesus didn’t know how to refuse the evil and choose the good. This prophecy was also partially fulfilled in the time before Christ’s birth when a child named Immanuel was born as a sign that God was still with Israel.(Isaiah 8:8) Given the way this very popular prophecy was used to speak of Christ in the New Testament as well as Immanuel in the Old Testament, it is reasonable that the prophecy in Revelation could be used the same way. It can describe both Israel and Mary so its not a created concept its an implicit biblical concept quite ancient too

Well sure I can slap verses together out of context and make scripture say all kinds of stuff its never meant to say. That is what cults do, in fact. But everyone with reading comprehension can see it's incorrect.

dóxatotheó · May 24, 2021

renniks said:
Well sure I can slap verses together out of context and make scripture say all kinds of stuff its never meant to say. That is what cults do, in fact. But everyone with reading comprehension can see it's incorrect.[/QUOTE
literally read the verses these are exegesis of scripture and a cult woud not push for a spiritual marriage of the Mother of God and all the stuff i said was provided with scripture and if you are literate tell me whats wrong about what i said

do you know what exegesis mean ? and secondly a cult would use this for idolatry etc. to turn this away from Christ but thats the opposite the belief on her being the Queen is spiritual not literal and its biblical which i provided scripture which you didnt respond too and if everyones literate why is there such different beliefs on who the women is in Revelation 12?

Marilyn C · May 24, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
using a verse out of context and using it to refute a faith is not a christian thing at all and im pretty sure if it was a demonic it wouldnt be seen in the exact opposite and i just told you it isnt a literal marriage and it would be earthly thinking if it wasnt biblical

Hi dox,

Yes we need other verses to bring the truth.

`It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles - that a man has his father`s wife.` (1 Cor. 5: 1)

Here we see a son having sexual relations with a woman who is a mother figure.

No good saying that the Lord taking Mary as His wife is just `spiritual.` It is still the same - immoral, perverse and demonic.

Marilyn.

dóxatotheó · May 24, 2021

Marilyn C said:
Hi dox,

Yes we need other verses to bring the truth.

`It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles - that a man has his father`s wife.` (1 Cor. 5: 1)

Here we see a son having sexual relations with a woman who is a mother figure.

No good saying that the Lord taking Mary as His wife is just `spiritual.` It is still the same - immoral, perverse and demonic.

Marilyn.

what does this verse have too do with a spiritual marriage in regards to the Davidic Kingdom and i already told you its not a literal marriage so please stop quoting verses in regards to literal marriages marilyn you keep eisegesing these scriptures instead of explaining your POV

renniks · May 24, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
do you know what exegesis mean ? and secondly a cult would use this for idolatry etc. to turn this away from Christ but thats the opposite the belief on her being the Queen is spiritual not literal and its biblical which i provided scripture which you didnt respond too and if everyones literate why is there such different beliefs on who the women is in Revelation 12?

The problem is that you don't understand context. And what you are using is Eisegesis, which reads into the text what the interpreter wishes to find or thinks he finds there.
You didn't provide any scripture saying Mary is the queen of heaven. Not even close.

Marilyn C · May 25, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
what does this verse have too do with a spiritual marriage in regards to the Davidic Kingdom and i already told you its not a literal marriage so please stop quoting verses in regards to literal marriages marilyn you keep eisegesing these scriptures instead of explaining your POV

Hi dox,

God made Adam and then from him He made a female. They were to be fruitful and multiply. They were given sexual organs so as to have children.

The last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ has sons. He does not have daughters. There are NO females in heaven and there wont be in the future. (1 Cor. 15: 45)

There is the Godhead - the Father , Son and Holy Spirit, and then there is the Body of Christ. (Heb. 12: 23)

And the Body of Christ is a `new man.` And this `new man` in neither male nor female. It actually comprises both - a new man. The male & female characteristics such as - nurturing, caring, compassion etc are together in the new man. (Gal. 4: 28)

So NO females in heaven, (the spiritual) for the new man is a spiritual being. (1 Cor. 15: 44)

regards, Marilyn.

dóxatotheó · May 25, 2021

renniks said:
The problem is that you don't understand context. And what you are using is Eisegesis, which reads into the text what the interpreter wishes to find or thinks he finds there.
You didn't provide any scripture saying Mary is the queen of heaven. Not even close.

you clearly didnt read my verses lol like i said the bible says everything implicitly Jesus never said "I AM GOD or WORSHIP ME" but he still seen as God and needs to be worship for salvation the bible doesnt always say everything for you is why we exegesis scripture your responding to me and not reading anything i put and the funny thing is every verse i put cant be taken out of context if you read what i put and actually respond to what i said and i provided multiple scripture you never responded too it all you said is i eisegesis scripture which you wrong on you had it right the first time when you said I exegesis scripture

renniks · May 25, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
you clearly didnt read my verses lol like i said the bible says everything implicitly Jesus never said "I AM GOD or WORSHIP ME" but he still seen as God and needs to be worship for salvation the bible doesnt always say everything for you is why we exegesis scripture your responding to me and not reading anything i put and the funny thing is every verse i put cant be taken out of context if you read what i put and actually respond to what i said and i provided multiple scripture you never responded too it all you said is i eisegesis scripture which you wrong on you had it right the first time when you said I exegesis scripture

I didn't say that. You did.

And which verse that you quoted claimed anything about Mary being a queen? I've read them all and seen this debate multiple times. It's like you are reading some secret code into scripture.
Mary was a human, like us. She sinned and needed a saviour.

dóxatotheó · May 25, 2021

="Marilyn C, post: 75973845, member: 344539"]Hi dox,

[QUOTE GOD made Adam and then from him He made a female. They were to be fruitful and multiply. They were given sexual organs so as to have children. [/QUOTE]

OK this has literally nothing to do with what i said and sexual organs will lead to other actions not of God is why God say first be fruitful and multiply its quite obvious God wanted them to have sex on Earth not in heaven cuz there wont be any sex in heaven.

[QUOTE The last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ has sons. He does not have daughters. There are NO females in heaven and there wont be in the future. (1 Cor. 15: 45) [/QUOTE]

45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
thats an add to Gods Word literally the bible never states that the females on this Earth rn wont be in heaven
he last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The natural, physical body is the product of Adam. The last Adam imparted eternal life to human bodies. God breathed life into the first Adam, but the last Adam gave life. Adam brought death; Jesus brought eternal life. Jesus became a progenitor of a new generation.

Ro 5:12-21,12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 8:11, But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
SO PLEASE DONT ADD TO GODS WORD like i said express biblical rebuttals

[QUOTE There is the Godhead - the Father , Son and Holy Spirit, and then there is the Body of Christ. (Heb. 12: 23)
[/QUOTE]

what you are saying is paganism the Body of Christ is the SON not a seperate person or being and the verse you put is about the judgement seat of Christ not even the body of Christ

[QUOTE AND the Body of Christ is a `new man.` And this `new man` in neither male nor female. It actually comprises both - a new man. The male & female characteristics such as - nurturing, caring, compassion etc are together in the new man. (Gal. 4: 28) [/QUOTE]

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
what does this verse is two what your quoting rn and the body of Christ is the church not a person or being already addressed this when we are in the holy spirit and baptized in Christ Galatians 2:38 you are in the body of Christ which is his church provide real scripture for what you say cause these dont even have what your referring too

[QUOTE So NO females in heaven, (the spiritual) for the new man is a spiritual being. (1 Cor. 15: 44)[/QUOTE]

when do we come to that conclusion we would be in the grace of God so sex wont be needed or sin in general 1 Peter 2:1-4 females will be in heaven we arent gonna transform into different beings we would have glorified bodies instead like Christ had his body Glorified after his Resurrection so if you say something provide scripture cause every verse you used arent even relevant to your argument and also whos the new Eve?
Our New Eve - St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church | Los Angeles, CA

dóxatotheó · May 25, 2021

renniks said:
I didn't say that. You did.

And which verse that you quoted claimed anything about Mary being a queen? I've read them all and seen this debate multiple times. It's like you are reading some secret code into scripture.
Mary was a human, like us. She sinned and needed a saviour.

when in the bible did Mary sinned in her lifetime also what verse says every living being sinned because if you read the greek for all lol it doesnt mean every living thing in existence and if you see it like that ig and also i dont believe the immaculate conception im clearly Orthodox so yes she needed a savior she just never sinned in her lifetime and the verses i quoted are Revelation 12 and Psalm 45:9 and Revelation 11:19 (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20). She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, He needs a Queen and in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen is the Mother and you can quote me context but its obvious Mary the New Ark cause she aligns with the verses ii put here

dóxatotheó · May 25, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
when in the bible did Mary sinned in her lifetime also what verse says every living being sinned because if you read the greek for all lol it doesnt mean every living thing in existence and if you see it like that ig and also i dont believe the immaculate conception im clearly Orthodox so yes she needed a savior she just never sinned in her lifetime and the verses i quoted are Revelation 12 and Psalm 45:9 and Revelation 11:19 (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20). She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, He needs a Queen and in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen is the Mother

The Word is joined to flesh;The Word is wedded to flesh, and the bridal chamber of this exalted marriage is your womb.Let me repeat, the bridal chamber of this exalted marriage between the Word and the flesh is your womb, whence He, the Bridegroom, goes forth from His bridal chamber.
St. Augustine

dóxatotheó · May 25, 2021

renniks said:
I didn't say that. You did.

And which verse that you quoted claimed anything about Mary being a queen? I've read them all and seen this debate multiple times. It's like you are reading some secret code into scripture.
Mary was a human, like us. She sinned and needed a saviour.

ye i noticed

dóxatotheó · May 25, 2021

renniks said:
The problem is that you don't understand context. And what you are using is Eisegesis, which reads into the text what the interpreter wishes to find or thinks he finds there.
You didn't provide any scripture saying Mary is the queen of heaven. Not even close.

ik what eisegesis means like i said it would be a eisegesis if i didnt provided scripture implicitly saying Mary is the Queen

renniks · May 25, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
when in the bible did Mary sinned in her lifetime also what verse says every living being sinned because if you read the greek for all lol it doesnt mean every living thing in existence and if you see it like that ig and also i dont believe the immaculate conception im clearly Orthodox so yes she needed a savior she just never sinned in her lifetime and the verses i quoted are Revelation 12 and Psalm 45:9 and Revelation 11:19 (2 Kings 24:12, 15; Jer. 13:18–20). She acted as counselor to her son (Prov. 31), an advocate of the people, and as an intercessor for the citizens of the kingdom (1 Kings 2:17–20). Since Jesus is a King based on the order of David, He needs a Queen and in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen is the Mother and you can quote me context but its obvious Mary the New Ark cause she aligns with the verses ii put here

There's no indication from scripture that Mary is a type of the ark. That's a total fabrication. And yes, she sinned. For example, she at one time believed Jesus was out of his mind.

"Then Jesus went home, and once again a crowd gathered, so that He and His disciples could not even eat. 21When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”
31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers came and stood outside. They sent someone in to summon Him, 32and a crowd was sitting around Him. “Look,” He was told, “Your mother and brothers are outside, asking for You.”…

renniks · May 25, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
ik what eisegesis means like i said it would be a eisegesis if i didnt provided scripture implicitly saying Mary is the Queen

Which you didn't.

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