If Election is not true?

My take is that he's writing to everyone because we're all sinners or, IOW, we're all definitely going to mess up now and again. No more than that really and certainly a very flimsy basis on which to construct an elaborate edifice of predestined Elect and Reprobates if that's where you're going....

Neostarwcc said:

Who is Peter referring to in his letters? Why does he say people who reject Christ disobey the word as they were destined to do? I'm genuinely curious on your opinions.

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God, alone, knows the end from the beginning, so from our perspective we only know what we're told to do and the rest is a bit speculative anyway-as to how election works and whether or not strict determinism is employed by God without any regard to man's will.

And we're told, among other things, that we must strive, and persevere, and be vigilant, and put to death the deeds of the flesh, and be perfect and be holy and invest our talents and refrain from sin and remain in Christ, and to pick up our cross daily, etc, etc, if we expect to inherit eternal life. All possible by and with the Spirit.

verse?

Ephesians explains it. We were all chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

But we are born into a world of sin, because of the fall. Even though we are all chosen from the outset, we are given a choice of free will, which we exercise during our lifetime.

Neostarwcc said:

Who is Peter referring to in his letters? Why does he say people who reject Christ disobey the word as they were destined to do? I'm genuinely curious on your opinions.

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"Election" is a term loosely used in the bible to describe Christians. Though due to the inconsistent use of the term and contradictions in the bible regarding the modern use of the term, we cannot say that there is an elect. We can say that God elected a group to Himself but we cannot say for certain which individuals belong to that group. We are told at 2 Peter 1:10:

"Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;"

If there was a defined "elect" we would not need to do anything to make our election sure. It would already be sure. We are told again at Romans 11:22:

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

How can an "elect" possibly be cut off?

"Israel mine elect." {Isaiah 45:4}

Isaiah clearly says that in his day Israel was God's "elect."

"Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it..." {Romans 11:7 ESV}

Paul seems to be just as clear that in his day Israel was no longer the "elect."

Israel rejected Christ.

But that certainly wasn't His will for them.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let Me." {Matthew 23:37}

Neostarwcc said:

Who is Peter referring to in his letters? Why does he say people who reject Christ disobey the word as they were destined to do? I'm genuinely curious on your opinions.

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Election is true but not in the way some define it. It is simply those who believe.
They have been chosen to enter the Kingdom of God due to their belief in Him.

paul1149 said:

verse?

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No, verses:

RIGHTEOUSNESS, HOLINESS, OVERCOMING SIN

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.” Matt 6:14-15

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb12:14

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-9

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

“Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning."1 John 3:4-8

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

REMAINING IN HIM

"I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned." John 15:5-6

“You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 11:19-22

STRIVING, PERSEVERING

"Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." Matt 24:12-13

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

"I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. rothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Phil 3:10-14

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love Him." James 1:12

"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised." Heb 10:36

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us," Heb 12:1

"And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up." Gal 6:9

"If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny him, He also will deny us;" 2 Tim 2:12

VIGILANCE

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." Matt 25:13

“Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Matthew 26:41

"Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears." Acts 20:31

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." 1 Cor10:12

"Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong." 1 Cor 16:13

"Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." 1 Pet 5:8

"Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God." Rev 3:2

Neostarwcc said:

Who is Peter referring to in his letters? Why does he say people who reject Christ disobey the word as they were destined to do? I'm genuinely curious on your opinions.

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Quote the Bible... let's talk

Freth said:

Ephesians explains it. We were all chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
​

But we are born into a world of sin, because of the fall. Even though we are all chosen from the outset, we are given a choice of free will, which we exercise during our lifetime.

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Good Day, Freth

The us would be a pronoun that represents the phase found in the first verse and of course Peter (who has blessed us... not just you Ephesian saints) and by extension all saints that God has chosen adopted as His own.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

In Him,

Bill

Good Day,


1 PE 2:1-10 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


DA Carson covers the contrast and the OT use by Peter in the text


But you not the not destined to stumble..





In Him,


Bill

fhansen said:

God, alone, knows the end from the beginning, so from our perspective we only know what we're told to do and the rest is a bit speculative anyway-as to how election works and whether or not strict determinism is employed by God without any regard to man's will.

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The issue in the NT is not man's free will, it is man's disposition--his preferences and likes, which govern the will.

Free will is defined as the ability to choose what one prefers without external constraint.
God does not force men against their will to come to him.

But the man without the Spirit (not born again) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit because he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 2:14) and he wants no part of it.

God does not violate men's wills in bringing them to himself, he uses their wills.
He works within their dispositions giving them to prefer the things of God (John 6:65), which they freely and willingly choose.

God uses man's will, he does not violate it.

And we're told, among other things, that we must strive, and persevere, and be vigilant, and put to death the deeds of the flesh, and be perfect and be holy and invest our talents and refrain from sin and remain in Christ, and to pick up our cross daily, etc, etc, if we expect to inherit eternal life.

All possible by and with the Spirit.

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Actually, we are told to believe on and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty (John 3:18).

All of the above are the result of having eternal life, they do not give eternal life.
They are the "practice" of the eternal life, which eternal life itself saves.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Freth

The us would be a pronoun that represents the phase found in the first verse and of course Peter (who has blessed us... not just you Ephesian saints) and by extension all saints that God has chosen adopted as His own.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

In Him,

Bill

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"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

Freth said:

Ephesians explains it. We were all chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
​

But we are born into a world of sin, because of the fall. Even though we are all chosen from the outset, we are given a choice of free will, which we exercise during our lifetime.

Click to expand...

Rom 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Predestination is based on foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Chosen -- according to foreknowledge of God.

Clare73 said:

The issue in the NT is not man's will, it is man's disposition--his preferences and likes, which govern the will.
God works within the disposition of man giving him new preferences and likes, which his will freely and willingly choose.

God uses man's will, he does not violate it.

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That's no difference. That would mean that God causes man's will to change by throwing him a tastier bone so that man, like an amoral beast who just can't possibly decide for himself between right and wrong but can only be caused to salivate for either one, good or evil, is nonetheless thrown into the pit of eternal torment according to your theology for being caused to salivate for evil.

Clare73 said:

Actually, we are told to believe on and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., not guilty (John 3:18).

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We're told that, among many other things.

Clare73 said:

All of the above are the result of having eternal life, they do not give eternal life.
They are the "practice" of the eternal life which saves.

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Right. If that we're true there'd be no reason to bother mentioning them at all-it'd already be a done deal anyway. More than a bit redundant.

fhansen said:

That's no difference. That would mean that God causes man's will to change by throwing him a tastier bone so that man, like an amoral beast who just can't possibly decide for himself between right and wrong but can only be caused to salivate for either one, good or evil, is nonetheless thrown into the pit of eternal torment according to your theology for being caused to salivate for evil.

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You haven't solved the problem of God creating people for hell with your moral ability argument.

For if God knows who is going to reject the gospel, and he creates them anyway, he is willingly creating people for hell.

And that is no different than what you object to in the above--God creating people for hell.

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

Therefore, those who do not come were not enabled.
They were, indeed, left in their inability to come.

We're told that, among many other things.

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Right. If that we're true there'd be no reason to bother mentioning them at all-it'd already be a done deal anyway. More than a bit redundant.

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Not when God accomplishes his ends through means.

The end (growing in holiness) is accomplished through obedience to the means specified, through the means of encouragment, through the means of warning, etc.

BobRyan said:

"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

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Good Day, Bob

Umm yeah ok... not sure what the point is as it relates to the text and construction in Eph.

He did die for the sins of the whole world... just not every sinner, many yes but not every.

In Him,

Bill

BobRyan said:

Rom 8
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Predestination is based on foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Chosen -- according to foreknowledge of God.

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Good day, Bob

In Romans you have the verb form, and in 1 Peter you have the noun form.

God foreknows (verb) people (whom's) in a very intimate was God does that. So his predestination (verb) is based upon His own action of foreknowing. He does both yes.

The opposite is when God says I never knew you... never choose to be in a relationship with them.

In Him,

Bill

Clare73 said:

Therefore, those who do not come were not enabled.

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Logical argument aside, are you happy with this conception of God? Does it sound fair to you?