Dangerous Doctrines I

BeyondET · May 20, 2021

Christsfreeservant said:
I am sorry. I am not following your train of thought here. Please explain. Thank you.

its ok sometimes the male in me reference people as he i am sorry if i may had disrespected you.

Norbert L · May 20, 2021

Christsfreeservant said:
Norbert, this isn't about what individuals choose or don't choose for themselves. this is isn't about whether someone chooses for himself to circumcise himself or his son. This is about the influence of false teachers who are preying on the naive and gullible and who are trying to convince them that they need to come under the Old Covenant system and laws in order to be saved or in order to escape the wrath of God. And it is about pressuring and threatening Christians that if they do not give their allegiance to a physical nation and its government that God's wrath will be visited on them.

That's maybe because you and I are of different temperaments. I don't fear them and the only real danger false teachers possess is to themselves. That's not to say if a close friend, someone I know face to face goes off after them, I wouldn't try and do something about it.

SongOnTheWind · May 20, 2021

Christsfreeservant said:
“I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.”

Sorry, my mistake...

SongOnTheWind · May 20, 2021

Christsfreeservant said:
Read the Scriptures in the New Testament which teach us about who Israel is today and what our response should be both to the people of the nation and to the nation as a governing body in the world. We are not to bow to them or worship them or adhere to their threats or see them in a god-like status to where we feel we must give them our allegiance (worship) or it is going to impact our relationship with God.

I think you misunderstood me, I never said to worship Israel. I'm having trouble sorting through your posts, there is a lot there, and I'm not entirely sure of all the details. My apologies.

Christsfreeservant · May 20, 2021

BeyondET said:
its ok sometimes the male in me reference people as he i am sorry if i may had disrespected you.

You are fine. I just didn't understand what you were saying to me. That's all.

Christsfreeservant · May 20, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
I think you misunderstood me, I never said to worship Israel. I'm having trouble sorting through your posts, there is a lot there, and I'm not entirely sure of all the details. My apologies.

And I didn't say that you said to worship Israel. I am trying to explain the situation here that we are in and the gravity of it, which is the same as what Paul was saying to the Christians of his day who were being led astray by Judaizers who were trying to convince them that they had to come under the Old Covenant in order to be saved.

What is taking place today is that we have people, not just a few, for this is widespread across America, and probably across the world, who are convincing Christians again that they must come under the Old Covenant teaching and obey it or if they don't the wrath of God is going to be poured down on them.

For they are quoting from Old Testament passages of Scripture under the Old Covenant and they are trying to enforce those passages on Christians who are under the New Covenant, and they are telling them that they must bless the physical nation of Israel, that they must honor, value and show respect to the nation (the government) or they will be cursed by God. Anyone who teaches what the Scriptures teach about the nation under the New Covenant are therefore treated as though they are the enemy. I personally have had two death threats against me for teaching what the Bible teaches.

They are telling us that praying for the peace of that nation will directly affect our lives. They say it will affect our ability to have peace, as though our peace is determined by whether or not we pray for that nation for peace. But what does that mean to pray that they will have peace? Are we praying for peace with God? No! Peace in the sense of no enemies coming against them. And who are their enemies? The Bible says it is Jesus Christ and his gospel and us who believe in Jesus. So we would be praying against Jesus and his gospel and against ourselves, especially if we are praying against their enemies, which is another thing they insist that we do.

They also tell us that our security is dependent on us loving the nation in the sense not of loving the people but the what the nation stands for, for its government and its politics and its religion and its philosophies, etc. And to love is to prefer, so this is showing preference to Israel (the nation) above God, because God said the nation is antichrist and against him and against his servants, too.

And then they tell us that if we mess with the nation that we will have to pay big time. And they teach that messing with them is messing with God as though they are still God's chosen people and as though they are still under the Old Covenant. But the Old Covenant was done away with when Jesus died on that cross. Now we are under the New Covenant, and we need to go by what it says, not what these people are telling us.

Basically what they are doing is putting that nation in the place of God, for they are saying our peace and our security depend on us giving them our allegiance, and that if we don't give them our loyalty, we will not have peace, we will be destroyed, we will not be secure, and we will pay big time.

But our peace and our security are not dependent on our loyalty and giving homage to a physical nation but it is dependent on us loving and honoring God. And we will be destroyed only if we do not love God and if we do not believe in Jesus and if we do not follow our Lord in obedience and leave our sins behind us. So, what they are teaching puts that nation in the place of God, and people are falling for it by the thousands. And that is dangerous!

Christsfreeservant · May 20, 2021

Norbert L said:
That's maybe because you and I are of different temperaments. I don't fear them and the only real danger false teachers possess is to themselves. That's not to say if a close friend, someone I know face to face goes off after them, I wouldn't try and do something about it.

Norbert, this has nothing to do with your temperament vs. mine. This is about false teachers teaching what is false to Christians and who are leading them astray and who are threatening their lives if they don't obey the false teaching. And those who are falling for this are by the thousands. And so we have Christians hating and turning against other Christians just because the other Christians don't bow to the nation and give them their undivided loyalties. I had two death threats against me because I was teaching what the Scriptures teach. One person wanted to see me burned at a stake. This is how serious people are taking this, and this is dangerous!

SongOnTheWind · May 20, 2021

I think this helps:

Romans 11:25-32
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Christsfreeservant · May 20, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
I think this helps:

Romans 11:25-32
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

They can be grafted back in through faith in Jesus Christ. The promise is to Abraham and his seed who is Jesus Christ. We must believe in Jesus Christ to be heirs of the promise.

Guojing · May 20, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
We are under the new covenant. It's new. We are new. No longer conformed to this world, and no longer enemies of God. Christ came to fulfil the law, not do away with it.

When you state that "we are under the NC", are you also saying we are the House of Israel or the House of Judah described in Hebrews 8:8?

Norbert L · May 20, 2021

Christsfreeservant said:
I had two death threats against me because I was teaching what the Scriptures teach. One person wanted to see me burned at a stake. This is how serious people are taking this, and this is dangerous!

Death threats don't stop some Christians on the front lines, they charge head on into it. Dr. Jay Smith and his Christian associates in their fields of expertise in Islamic studies get death threats. Anyone in the field of Christian apologetics who talk to the public get death threats. Even Christian news political commentators on the Daily Wire receive death threats. Plenty of their testimony can be viewed via the Internet.

It's not slowing these Christians down. They leave me with the impression of charging head long into the labor for Christ with the same disposition as former kings, "You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin, but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.." ESV

I will pray for you!

Christsfreeservant · May 20, 2021

Norbert L said:
Death threats don't stop some Christians on the front lines, they charge head on into it. Dr. Jay Smith and his Christian associates in their fields of expertise in Islamic studies get death threats. Anyone in the field of Christian apologetics who talk to the public get death threats. Even Christian news political commentators on the Daily Wire receive death threats. Plenty of their testimony can be viewed via the Internet.

It's not slowing these Christians down. They leave me with the impression of charging head long into the labor for Christ with the same disposition as former kings, "You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin, but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.." ESV

I will pray for you!

Yes, that's true. It is not slowing me down, either. But that really isn't the point. The point is that a false doctrine is being pushed that is using threats and lies to get people to comply and that Christians are turning against other Christians in an effort to comply with what they believe is the truth. And just like Paul had to address the situation with the Christians and the Judaizers in his day, under similar circumstances, we need "to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.”

SongOnTheWind · May 21, 2021

Guojing said:
When you state that "we are under the NC", are you also saying we are the House of Israel or the House of Judah described in Hebrews 8:8?

You yourself agreed that they can be grafted back in. Guess what? It's happening. Guess what else? Their numbers are increasing. There is a shift in their seeking out the truth. But we as Christians can either help them or hurt them. I've seen a believer's ignorance first hand waste a golden opportunity to witness to an open, seeking Jewish person. While I was building Christ up in their eyes, by this particular believer's arrogance, they were tearing Him down again. Jesus Himself said that those who do not build with Him scatter. Those are the people you avoid and don't build with, because they scatter against the Kingdom of God. We have to know the battle we are fighting. Are we fighting to save souls, or are we retaliating because we are offended? One, the enemy can use against us, the other one he can't.

Norbert L · May 21, 2021

Christsfreeservant said:
Yes, that's true. It is not slowing me down, either. But that really isn't the point. The point is that a false doctrine is being pushed that is using threats and lies to get people to comply and that Christians are turning against other Christians in an effort to comply with what they believe is the truth. And just like Paul had to address the situation with the Christians and the Judaizers in his day, under similar circumstances, we need "to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.”

I know the Westborough Baptist Church is known for its' radicalism and it wouldn't surprise me or anyone on these forums who keep up with public events to be aware that some individuals from that group could go so far as to threaten someone.

You're not alone and there is help out there by like minded Christians who have registered ministries that evangelize in public (Matthew 5:14-16) and receive threats because of it. Al Fadi and Dr. Jay Smith have Christian organizations like that and would share any help they can about their security measures and how to name names to avoid legal repercussions. The law (secular) is truly blind and can be used against the gospel and they would share their knowledge and experience with you to avoid legal suites or even jail time.

Who are these people who identify with Christianity that are throwing threats at you?

Guojing · May 21, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
You yourself agreed that they can be grafted back in. Guess what? It's happening. Guess what else? Their numbers are increasing. There is a shift in their seeking out the truth. But we as Christians can either help them or hurt them. I've seen a believer's ignorance first hand waste a golden opportunity to witness to an open, seeking Jewish person. While I was building Christ up in their eyes, by this particular believer's arrogance, they were tearing Him down again. Jesus Himself said that those who do not build with Him scatter. Those are the people you avoid and don't build with, because they scatter against the Kingdom of God. We have to know the battle we are fighting. Are we fighting to save souls, or are we retaliating because we are offended? One, the enemy can use against us, the other one he can't.

So is your answer a yes to my question?

SongOnTheWind · May 21, 2021

Guojing said:
So is your answer a yes to my question?

Clearly not. You have misconstrued the context of Romans 8:8. Those of Israel who are coming into Christ are being born again of the Spirit of God, not the flesh. There is no other way. While all are in our sins, we die in our sins. When we come to Christ we must leave the old man behind and not think in fleshly ways, or allow the flesh to cloud our judgement, or our vision. I'm not saying that Israel is perfect, but what I am saying is that, clearly, God hasn't given up on him yet. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - Israel. The God of the LIVING and not the dead.

Guojing · May 21, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
Clearly not. You have misconstrued the context of Romans 8:8. Those of Israel who are coming into Christ are being born again of the Spirit of God, not the flesh. There is no other way. While all are in our sins, we die in our sins. When we come to Christ we must leave the old man behind and not think in fleshly ways, or allow the flesh to cloud our judgement, or our vision. I'm not saying that Israel is perfect, but what I am saying is that, clearly, God hasn't given up on him yet. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - Israel. The God of the LIVING and not the dead.

I was talking about Hebrews 8:8, you mistook it as Romans 8:8?

Carl Emerson · May 22, 2021

Christsfreeservant said:
They can be grafted back in through faith in Jesus Christ. The promise is to Abraham and his seed who is Jesus Christ. We must believe in Jesus Christ to be heirs of the promise.

Romans 11:25-32
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

This passage is saying ALL Israel will be saved.

This is Not a reference to some individuals.

That means that at some time in the future the nation (all Israel) will have blindness removed and come to believe in Jesus and be saved.

Jesus expressed love for Jerusalem...

Matt 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

This is also a confirmation that God's plan is the redemption of Jerusalem.

This being that case, why should praying for Jerusalem by dismissed as 'old covenant' when Jesus indicates His Love for Jerusalem will culminate in a glorious redemption?

When a beloved strays... the love does not cease.

I see no scriptural support for the relegation of praying for the Peace of Jerusalem to "Old Covenant"

That does not mean to support the unregenerate nature of the present Jerusalem.

That does not mean to idolise present day unregenerate Israel...

...but to never cease to love what He has chosen to be loved.

Ronans 11...
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

SongOnTheWind · May 22, 2021

Guojing said:
I was talking about Hebrews 8:8, you mistook it as Romans 8:8?

Ah! My apologies. Thank you for pointing that out. Really

SongOnTheWind · May 22, 2021

Guojing said:
When you state that "we are under the NC", are you also saying we are the House of Israel or the House of Judah described in Hebrews 8:8?

No, we, the gentile Church, are not Israel, nor have we taken his place. This verse clearly shows the hope Christ had in being that new covenant for Israel. Think about why Paul would say this:

Romans 1:16
The Just Live by Faith
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Why to them first? I believe it's because they, having the context of the old covenant and an already ongoing relationship with God through that covenant, are in a better position to evangelise to the world the gospel in its full context. The first Christians were Jewish after all. Christ was born a Jew. Now, because of their evangelism we are now part of the new covenant too. NOT replacing them in it. God is not finished with Israel. I already quoted this verse before in reply to you, but I will add the following verse to stress the point:

Romans 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Hope that clears things up

Dangerous Doctrines I

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