If there was no heaven, would you still want to be a Christian?

Bradskii said:

See where it says 'non denom' in your panel on the left? Mine says 'atheist'. And if I may quote you...

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My apologies and I stand humbly corrected. You are justified in your irritation.

'I did not say athiests want to die. I said atheists want to cease to exist once dead.' And went on to say 'It is what they want...'

Maybe you didn't mean to say that. Because (and English is my first language) it means that once an atheist is dead they then want to cease to exist. Which is nonsensical because death and ceasing to exist are exactly the same thing. Hence it isn't something to want as preferred to something else (heaven v Valhalla). There is no choice. There are no options.

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It appears that you are viewing having hopes as only possible in the present. That is, the atheist can only want to cease to exist, that is, have the hope, once that becomes their present which is nonsensical as you said.

But I think we can have hopes today that will be only realized in the future. A young girl might hope to be married and have children while a young girl and not have to wait until she is old enough to do either before she can hope. It is a hope for the future in a future state not possible in the present.

Perhaps you meant to say that atheists believe they cease to exist once dead. And that we're quite happy with that concept. Which means something completely different.

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Well of course. As I said, it is possible to have a hope for the future that is not possible to be realized today.

returntosender said:

I don't think they get away with anything. They lose everything that counts

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None of us take anything with us from this life so that is no different than anyone else.

They don’t get away with the evil they’ve done because there is judgement of it and punishment. Something no one wants.

Bradskii said:

That's a Christian perspective. We were talking about how an atheist considers death. In which case there is no 'second death'. You don't come back from the first one...

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So how do you view what happens when you die?

Dorothy Mae said:

So how do you view what happens when you die?

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"Death is not the end of life, merely the end of pain. Life ended long before death" - From a suicide note.

(although we are drifting pretty far off the TOPIC: If there was no heaven, would you still be a Christian?)

atpollard said:

"Death is not the end of life, merely the end of pain. Life ended long before death" - From a suicide note.

(although we are drifting pretty far off the TOPIC: If there was no heaven, would you still be a Christian?)

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For some, it is the beginning of pain...real pain. A person killing themselves is not the best source of information on life after death although one at least survived and emotionally warns others not to do so as what was before her as she lay dying was worse than the pain she was trying to escape.

Anyway, back to the OP. I suppose some answer according to how much being a Christian was personally beneficial in their lives.

Dorothy Mae said:

For some, it is the beginning of pain...real pain. A person killing themselves is not the best source of information on life after death although one at least survived and emotionally warns others not to do so as what was before her as she lay dying was worse than the pain she was trying to escape.

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Your question was about how an "atheist" might view "what happens when you die". That was just one example that I knew of. Here is a second:



Back to the OP: That was the legacy that my father left to me, a faith in science and a belief that "religion is the opiate of the masses". So let us just assume that there is a God, but dad was correct about the afterlife (no life after death).

WHY WOULD I STILL BE A CHRISTIAN?
1. Hope in this life.

• In the decade after WW2, the Methodist Pastor was visiting my Grandmother for afternoon tea when my aunt (a little girl) fell down the stairs and was unconscious. My grandmother told her older sister to "hurry and get the doctor". The pastor said "We can pray for her." My grandmother responded "No, the Doctor is closer."
• It was always a funny story that my Grandmother told. It also illustrates a truth. Most people live a life that screams that the doctor really is closer than God. My grandparents were good people that never tired of doing good, but I never saw their faith. When my daughter is sick, we call the doctor, but we pray before, during and after because we know that God is already HERE, so God is closer.

2. A Legacy for the next generation.

• I already mentioned my father's advice on religion and the afterlife. So let's look at my family legacy. I like Jacob's family, because his household makes mine feel closer to "normal". My mother, two brothers and I were abandoned by our father for the wife of his employer and her two sons. My father and stepmother then had a half-sister and half-brother to me. One step brother moved out at 18 to marry a 35 year old widow and has had nothing to do with his parents since. The other step brother struggles with alcoholism and lives at home with my father and stepmother. My half-sister married a Firefighter, attends church and seems to have a stable job and family. My half brother struggles with drug addiction, has a wife who committed suicide by overdosing on mother's day and met his new wife at her funeral.
• Me and my two brothers grew up in another state where we saw our father less than once a year. My youngest brother was murdered and the middle brother committed suicide. That leaves me the only survivor from my mother. So I joined a gang, smuggled drugs, shot someone, was planning a bombing ... "but then God" (road to Damascus time) ... quit gang, college (Bachelor of Architecture), job, married, stillbirth, beautiful daughter. My daughter has a legacy of FAITH and HOPE and a GOD that says "I know the plans that I have for you, plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." [Jeremiah 29:11].
• We have told our daughter the story about printing Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the LORD;
  And He will give you the desires of your heart." on the refrigerator and praying that prayer constantly. How the Mayo Clinic in Rochester told my wife that she would never be able to have a baby. How Teresa believed in praying for specifics and prayed to God for a daughter that she could name Sarah after Sarah in the bible because her daughter would also be a gift from God, dedicated to Him from birth. WE told her how after years of praying and trying we had pretty much lost hope of conceiving and shifted from Emergency Placement Foster Parents to Foster to Adopt. It was while searching for a child to adopt that God answered our prayer and Sarah was born. That is our legacy to her. Her legacy to build on.

Deuteronomy 7:9 [NKJV]
"Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Seeing as the whole "going to heaven for all eternity after we die" is a thoroughly modern innovation in Christian theology, and isn't at all what has been confessed and taught over the last two thousand years; then yeah, if that didn't exist I'd still be a Christian. I don't believe in "heaven" if using the modern popular definition of it, and here I am being a Christian.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Seeing as the whole "going to heaven for all eternity after we die" is a thoroughly modern innovation in Christian theology, and isn't at all what has been confessed and taught over the last two thousand years; then yeah, if that didn't exist I'd still be a Christian. I don't believe in "heaven" if using the modern popular definition of it, and here I am being a Christian.

-CryptoLutheran

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Yeah, I find that fascinating. I still attend a typical Christian church and the vast majority of people have that common understanding of Heaven and Hell that I just can't reconcile with what scripture actually says. It's almost cartoony.

atpollard said:

Your question was about how an "atheist" might view "what happens when you die". That was just one example that I knew of. Here is a second:

My father taught me that an apple falls from a tree and rots. Its seeds contain the same genetic code as the parent tree. The seeds sprout and a young apple tree begins to grow near the old apple tree. Eventually, the old apple tree dies and decomposes. The roots of the young apple tree take in the nutrients from the ground ... the very same carbon atoms and water molecules that had formed the parent tree ... and uses those to build up the new Apple tree. That is the closest that man will ever get to eternity.​

I breathe some of the exact same atoms that my grandfather breathed and carry some genetic code that is identical to his genetic code ... so part of Grandpa is still in the universe ... and his great-granddaughter still has that Welsh streak of red in her wavy brown hair, just like he did, and my father did and I do.​

Back to the OP: That was the legacy that my father left to me, a faith in science and a belief that "religion is the opiate of the masses". So let us just assume that there is a God, but dad was correct about the afterlife (no life after death).

WHY WOULD I STILL BE A CHRISTIAN?
1. Hope in this life.

• In the decade after WW2, the Methodist Pastor was visiting my Grandmother for afternoon tea when my aunt (a little girl) fell down the stairs and was unconscious. My grandmother told her older sister to "hurry and get the doctor". The pastor said "We can pray for her." My grandmother responded "No, the Doctor is closer."
• It was always a funny story that my Grandmother told. It also illustrates a truth. Most people live a life that screams that the doctor really is closer than God. My grandparents were good people that never tired of doing good, but I never saw their faith. When my daughter is sick, we call the doctor, but we pray before, during and after because we know that God is already HERE, so God is closer.

2. A Legacy for the next generation.

• I already mentioned my father's advice on religion and the afterlife. So let's look at my family legacy. I like Jacob's family, because his household makes mine feel closer to "normal". My mother, two brothers and I were abandoned by our father for the wife of his employer and her two sons. My father and stepmother then had a half-sister and half-brother to me. One step brother moved out at 18 to marry a 35 year old widow and has had nothing to do with his parents since. The other step brother struggles with alcoholism and lives at home with my father and stepmother. My half-sister married a Firefighter, attends church and seems to have a stable job and family. My half brother struggles with drug addiction, has a wife who committed suicide by overdosing on mother's day and met his new wife at her funeral.
• Me and my two brothers grew up in another state where we saw our father less than once a year. My youngest brother was murdered and the middle brother committed suicide. That leaves me the only survivor from my mother. So I joined a gang, smuggled drugs, shot someone, was planning a bombing ... "but then God" (road to Damascus time) ... quit gang, college (Bachelor of Architecture), job, married, stillbirth, beautiful daughter. My daughter has a legacy of FAITH and HOPE and a GOD that says "I know the plans that I have for you, plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." [Jeremiah 29:11].
• We have told our daughter the story about printing Psalm 37:4 "Delight yourself in the LORD;
  And He will give you the desires of your heart." on the refrigerator and praying that prayer constantly. How the Mayo Clinic in Rochester told my wife that she would never be able to have a baby. How Teresa believed in praying for specifics and prayed to God for a daughter that she could name Sarah after Sarah in the bible because her daughter would also be a gift from God, dedicated to Him from birth. WE told her how after years of praying and trying we had pretty much lost hope of conceiving and shifted from Emergency Placement Foster Parents to Foster to Adopt. It was while searching for a child to adopt that God answered our prayer and Sarah was born. That is our legacy to her. Her legacy to build on.

Deuteronomy 7:9 [NKJV]
"Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

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Nice post. Thanks for sharing.

Gene Parmesan said:

Yeah, I find that fascinating. I still attend a typical Christian church and the vast majority of people have that common understanding of Heaven and Hell that I just can't reconcile with what scripture actually says. It's almost cartoony.

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I'd actually go so far as to say it is informed more by cartoons than by the Bible or anything in the traditional Christian faith.

-CryptoLutheran

Dorothy Mae said:

So how do you view what happens when you die?

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Well, you cease to exist.

As Sagan once famously said, we are 'star stuff'. Made from materials forged in the furnaces of long dead stars. Bits of the universe that have become self aware. And when I'm gone, that which I am made from will return from whence it came. Back into nature to help continue the process.

It's a nice thought that I might live on in some way. Nobody wants to leave. But I didn't exist a hundred years ago and in another hundred years I will be in exactly that same position.

ViaCrucis said:

Seeing as the whole "going to heaven for all eternity after we die" is a thoroughly modern innovation in Christian theology, and isn't at all what has been confessed and taught over the last two thousand years; then yeah, if that didn't exist I'd still be a Christian. I don't believe in "heaven" if using the modern popular definition of it, and here I am being a Christian.

-CryptoLutheran

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Why do you say it is modern? What did Jesus mean when he said he is going ahead to prepare a place for us and he will receive us? Why did he talk about hell and the suffering there if there is none? Many writers wrote of the judgement to come and where the righteous will go. Why do you think this is modern?

Dorothy Mae said:

Why do you say it is modern? What did Jesus mean when he said he is going ahead to prepare a place for us and he will receive us? Why did he talk about hell and the suffering there if there is none? Many writers wrote of the judgement to come and where the righteous will go. Why do you think this is modern?

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The idea that we go to a place called heaven for all eternity is modern.

The Bible, the Church fathers, the Councils, the Creeds, et al, all speak of the future resurrection of the body and the renewal of creation at the end of history.

That there is an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a "present with the Lord" as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians, is the closest thing the Bible comes to talking about "going to heaven".

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

The idea that we go to a place called heaven for all eternity is modern.

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Simply asserting this is true does not make it true. Repeating your position does not strengthen it.

The Bible, the Church fathers, the Councils, the Creeds, et al, all speak of the future resurrection of the body and the renewal of creation at the end of history.

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What does that have to do with going to be with Jesus, that is, being absent from the body but present with the Lord?" The resurrection is of the body for sure. Does not mean the spirit is likewise resurrected since that is actually exclusively the body.

That there is an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a "present with the Lord" as Paul calls it in 2 Corinthians, is the closest thing the Bible comes to talking about "going to heaven".

-CryptoLutheran

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I guess I anticipated you. That is Heaven. What more do you want? Jesus said he is going to prepare a place for us. He will then receive us. This does not sound like the resurrection. It does sound like the spirit goes to be with the Lord. Where is the evidence that no Bible writer thought any differently than what Paul wrote? David himself said he would go to his dead son once and not the son to him. Jesus said God is a god of the living, meaning we do not suffer death in the spirit waiting until the Resurrection. I see no evidence that the idea of Heaven is modern. What do you think they meant when they wrote of Heaven 2000+ years ago?

Dorothy Mae said:

Simply asserting this is true does not make it true. Repeating your position does not strengthen it.

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Alright, if you can find a statement in the Bible that says that after we die, our ghosts float up into a place somewhere called "heaven" where we spend all eternity floating around as disembodied spirits, I'm all ears.

That's what I mean when I say the "dying and going to heaven for eternity" is modern. What I just described above is not something the Scriptures speak of, and it isn't the historic faith of the Christian religion--Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

What does that have to do with going to be with Jesus, that is, being absent from the body but present with the Lord?" The resurrection is of the body for sure. Does not mean the spirit is likewise resurrected since that is actually exclusively the body.

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There's nothing wrong with calling the intermediate time spent in Christ's presence, awaiting the resurrection and the renewal of all things as "going to heaven". The Bible doesn't call it this, but it's perfectly fine to call it that. As long as we understand that this isn't what Scripture talks about when it speaks of our future hope in Jesus.

Our hope in Jesus isn't to leave the earth behind and then float around eternity singing songs on clouds. Our hope in Jesus is that what God has done in and for Jesus He is going to do for the whole world.

Even as Christ has risen from the dead, the first fruits of the resurrection, so shall God bring resurrection to all who are in Christ, and even more, to the entirety of all creation.

I guess I anticipated you. That is Heaven. What more do you want? Jesus said he is going to prepare a place for us. He will then receive us. This does not sound like the resurrection. It does sound like the spirit goes to be with the Lord. Where is the evidence that no Bible writer thought any differently than what Paul wrote? David himself said he would go to his dead son once and not the son to him. Jesus said God is a god of the living, meaning we do not suffer death in the spirit waiting until the Resurrection. I see no evidence that the idea of Heaven is modern. What do you think they meant when they wrote of Heaven 2000+ years ago?

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I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I didn't say "Heaven is modern" I said the idea that we go to heaven when we die for all eternity is modern.

Talking about spending eternity in heaven is like planning on going a vacation and thinking the airport is the destination.

What the Apostle St. Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians is about being in the lobby, or, if one prefers, a temporary stay at a day spa. It is a temporary thing, a waiting.

For a fuller and better grasp on this subject matter, I'd highly recommend the Rt. Rev. N.T. Wright's fantastic work Surprised by Hope, which I finally had a chance to read recently.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Alright, if you can find a statement in the Bible that says that after we die, our ghosts float up into a place somewhere called "heaven" where we spend all eternity floating around as disembodied spirits, I'm all ears.

That's what I mean when I say the "dying and going to heaven for eternity" is modern. What I just described above is not something the Scriptures speak of, and it isn't the historic faith of the Christian religion--Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

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Since you speak of this is such derisive terms, no we won't find that description of Heaven in the Bible. No one who walked with God wrote of going to be with Him using that kind of decription. They did write of going to Him but not in the way you describe it.

There's nothing wrong with calling the intermediate time spent in Christ's presence, awaiting the resurrection and the renewal of all things as "going to heaven". The Bible doesn't call it this, but it's perfectly fine to call it that. As long as we understand that this isn't what Scripture talks about when it speaks of our future hope in Jesus.

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Paul fulled expected to be present with the Lord. You can call that "perfectly fine as long we understand that is not what he said" but your position is not one that Paul had. When Stephen was dying, he saw the Lord standing up to greet him. He wasn't saying "see you later in a few millennia dear Stephen." Revelation describes those whose were martryed complaining to GOd. hummmmmm saints who died and were in his presence complaining...... hummm

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I didn't say "Heaven is modern" I said the idea that we go to heaven when we die for all eternity is modern.

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I understood you clearly. I think you are wrong.

Talking about spending eternity in heaven is like planning on going a vacation and thinking the airport is the destination.

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You clearly do not understand this matter. For you it is like going on vacation and ceasing to exist until we arrive at the destination.

What the Apostle St. Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians is about being in the lobby, or, if one prefers, a temporary stay at a day spa. It is a temporary thing, a waiting.

For a fuller and better grasp on this subject matter, I'd highly recommend the Rt. Rev. N.T. Wright's fantastic work Surprised by Hope, which I finally had a chance to read recently.

-CryptoLutheran

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Thanks for the recommendation but does he explain how the dead are standing in numbers demanding God take vengence on men on the earth for what they did to them and God tells them to wait a bit longer? They are the dead, mind you, not the resurrected which makes no sense if you retreat to that line.

Bradskii said:

Well, you cease to exist.

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That is what I said atheists want to happen.

As Sagan once famously said, we are 'star stuff'. Made from materials forged in the furnaces of long dead stars. Bits of the universe that have become self aware. And when I'm gone, that which I am made from will return from whence it came. Back into nature to help continue the process.

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You are forgetting the inner life of man that is not material. All the loves and joys and caring is not material but still if more important than the material. When a person's body functions but the inner man is essentially gone, we find that very sad.

It's a nice thought that I might live on in some way. Nobody wants to leave. But I didn't exist a hundred years ago and in another hundred years I will be in exactly that same position.

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If you are wrong it is pretty bad. IF we are wrong it is no big deal. But of course, that is not enough to surrender to Christ, but it is some food for thought.

Dorothy Mae said:

That is what I said atheists want to happen.
You are forgetting the inner life of man that is not material. All the loves and joys and caring is not material but still if more important than the material. When a person's body functions but the inner man is essentially gone, we find that very sad.
If you are wrong it is pretty bad. IF we are wrong it is no big deal. But of course, that is not enough to surrender to Christ, but it is some food for thought.

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Well, I'll just lead the best life I can. I wouldn't change the way I'd live by surrendering to Christ' so I'm not likely to take up Pascal on his wager. And then if God happens to exist I'll leave my eternal life in His hands. But I have to tell you, if someone has lived a sinful life and gets to heaven and I don't simply because I found the evidence for God to be underwhelming, then I shall be mightily annoyed.

Bradskii said:

Well, I'll just lead the best life I can. I wouldn't change the way I'd live by surrendering to Christ' so I'm not likely to take up Pascal on his wager. And then if God happens to exist I'll leave my eternal life in His hands. But I have to tell you, if someone has lived a sinful life and gets to heaven and I don't simply because I found the evidence for God to be underwhelming, then I shall be mightily annoyed.

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The one comfort I can give is you’re not likely to be annoyed. What is likely is that you will see the “good” life you lived as not so good. I say this because man tends to fool himself as to his own goodness. You will see the deeds of your life, all of them, as the people who were on the receiving end of your deeds saw them, at the very least.

Your shield of the evidence for being insufficient will melt as He shows you the instances of enough evidence laid before you to warrant you pursing the matter more closely at the very least. These moments have been recorded. You will not be able to fool yourself any more.

The atheists I’ve engaged with have had the tendency to make demands God has to meet in order for them to (just about condescend to) believe. They demanded He jump through hoops they set up or no believing. I don’t know if you are of the same mind. I’m just mentioning the tendency in others.

Dorothy Mae said:

The one comfort I can give is you’re not likely to be annoyed. What is likely is that you will see the “good” life you lived as not so good. I say this because man tends to fool himself as to his own goodness. You will see the deeds of your life, all of them, as the people who were on the receiving end of your deeds saw them, at the very least.

Your shield of the evidence for being insufficient will melt as He shows you the instances of enough evidence laid before you to warrant you pursing the matter more closely at the very least. These moments have been recorded. You will not be able to fool yourself any more.

The atheists I’ve engaged with have had the tendency to make demands God has to meet in order for them to (just about condescend to) believe. They demanded He jump through hoops they set up or no believing. I don’t know if you are of the same mind. I’m just mentioning the tendency in others.

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I can only repeat what I said earlier. I would not change the way I live if I were a Christian (apart from the obvious acts of worshipping etc). So my life as it would be reviewed would be essentially the same. It's not as if I purposely reject all of Jesus' teachings simply because I'm an atheist. I was brought up as a Christian by quite devout parents and what I learned from them about how to live a moral life has served me well. So you could say that I'm as Christian as the next guy. I just don't believe in the existence of deities.

And if God exists then He is fully aware that my lack of belief is absolutely genuine. He knows without any shadow of doubt that the evidence that has been presented (over decades) is insufficient for belief. And me wanting God to prove to me that He exists is as nonsensical to me as it would be to you asking Shiva for evidence that he exists (and I'm really not interested in playing 'What Would Make You Believe!').