Help with Romans 9:1-5

2BeholdHisGlory · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
What point are you trying to make?

I have no issue with the scriptures you raise...

I really dont have a point to make I am trying to see how you answer to scripture and feel out how your answer for things surrounding Israel and the Jews. Whether you regard them according to a blood thing/tribe/or dna thing, how you regard the spirit thing, Synagouge of Satan thing or whether its a religious teaching thing. How do you prove this Israel/ Jews thing even in respects to them which say they are but are not (in respects to deception). Really, just how you measure all these things because I sure dont know thats why I am asking. And I cant make a good call on anything until I ask questions according to scripture and see if I can get something straight between them. Although I am better with those who use just scripture and I should probably not ask you I was curious and I wanted to get a little understanding. Just cross checking key areas.

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
I really dont have a point to make I am trying to see how you answer to scripture and feel out how your answer for things surrounding Israel and the Jews. Whether you regard them according to a blood thing/tribe/or dna thing, how you regard the spirit thing, Synagouge of Satan thing or whether its a religious teaching thing. How do you prove this Israel/ Jews thing even in respects to them which say they are but are not (in respects to deception). Really, just how you measure all these things because I sure dont know thats why I am asking. And I cant make a good call on anything until I ask questions according to scripture and see if I can get something straight between them. Although I am better with those who use just scripture and I should probably not ask you I was curious and I wanted to get a little understanding. Just cross checking key areas.

I respect your questioning - no problem.

I feel I am a little different than many on CF in that I read the word and nothing else for over 5 years and let this meditative pursuit shape my thinking and world view.

I do not come from the angle of defending my denomination - some feel I have a gift of insight.

I am always ready to learn more from those who dialogue with me - I have learned a lot by stepping out in obedience.

So you wont get a barrage of scripture although I am capable of that - so many hide behind their take on the bible and remain unknown.

I have waited 40 years to share what I have learned - it is a good day.

You can see my testimony here if you are interested.

Jesus's Ministry

2BeholdHisGlory · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I respect your questioning - no problem.

I feel I am a little different than many on CF in that I read the word and nothing else for over 5 years and let this meditative pursuit shape my thinking and world view.

I do not come from the angle of defending my denomination - some feel I have a gift of insight.

I am always ready to learn more from those who dialogue with me - I have learned a lot by stepping out in obedience.

So you wont get a barrage of scripture although I am capable of that - so many hide behind their take on the bible and remain unknown.

I have waited 40 years to share what I have learned - it is a good day.

You can see my testimony here if you are interested.

Jesus's Ministry

I can actually respect that word only, I would encourage you to continue. I've been a scriptures only-ist person (as I jokingly say) for over 25 years myself. In fact, I almost broke that rule through Clare73 on a single book she actually reccomended some years ago ^_^

I ended up purchasing it on Amazon but I never got to reading it, I dont even know if I still have it. So I can still say I'm "scriptures onlyist" LOL. Now this will bug me, and I'll need to check my Amazon archive to see which book that was.

I have absolutely nothing to defend by way of eschatology, zippo, nadda. I am probably the least defensive person to talk to about those things. I'll have a million questions (which are my own) that I should actually get to work on, because it can be difficult to talk to folks who can become a bit defensive about what they believe, they might believe something but they might not really know how they arrive to that and can sometimes feel threatened if you shake the tree a little too much.

My workmanship really lacks here in this area of things, "I got nuffin". So I like taking all the trees and shaking them all at once to see which one abides (then hang out under that one tree) ^_^

I prefer folks who can lay out how they are catching a thing according to the scriptures (who are also able to help fill in the gaps of some of those doubtful grey areas) by the same instead of just blow them off or skip over them. And once and awhile you can find someone that can do that, and what did not make sense (and were sort of "meh" about) begins to make sense. Thats great.

So I will probably just ask questions, because I dont think I can add much

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
I can actually respect that word only, I would encourage you to continue. I've been a scriptures only-ist person (as I jokingly say) for over 25 years myself. In fact, I almost broke that rule through Clare73 on a single book she actually reccomended some years ago I ended up purchasing it on Amazon but I never got to reading it, I dont even know if I still have it. So I can still say I'm "scriptures onlyist" LOL. Now this will bug me, and I'll need to check my Amazon archive to see which book that was.

I have absolutely nothing to defend by way of eschatology, zippo, nadda. I am probably the least defensive person to talk to about those things. I'll have a million questions (which are my own) that I should actually get to work on, because it can be difficult to talk to folks who can become a bit defensive about what they believe, they might believe something but they might not really know how they arrive to that and can sometimes feel threatened if you shake the tree a little too much.

My workmanship really lacks here in this area of things, "I got nuffin". So I like taking all the trees and shaking them all at once to see which one abides (then hang out under that one tree)

I prefer folks who can lay out how they are catching a thing according to the scriptures (who are also able to help fill in the gaps of some of those doubtful grey areas) by the same instead of just blow them off or skip over them. And once and awhile you can find someone that can do that, and what did not make sense (and were sort of "meh" about) begins to make sense. Thats great.

So I will probably just ask questions, because I dont think I can add much

I learned to hand my questions upstairs...

I trust if I don't get an answer (usually in a few days) I don't need it.

I have been told to stay clear of eschatology - enough confusion there already !

My focus is to walk in the works pre-prepared for me - and that has led to an exciting life.

I like to share my passion for His ways and His Love.

My life has been punctuated by the miraculous and I believe this is nothing more than an expression of His great Love.

He put me on a plane for Israel with $150 - I was away 10 weeks everything was paid for, strangers gave me money.

I have just reconnected, after 20 years, with a lady I prayed for in Israel who was having a heart attack and was healed. She now runs a pro-life ministry.

I am just deeply thankful for my life and the lessons I have learned. Certainly beats books !!!

Mr. M · May 17, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
I hear what you are saying, I am trying to nail this down better by asking questions, but how do you know if a Jew is lying about being a Jew?

For example,

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

If someone said to you that they were a Jew (in Israel) you met them and believed them, how would you know whether they were telling the truth?

Good morning!
I was just reviewing your discussion with Carl, and wanted to comment on the Lord's statement
in Revelation 3:9. I would remind you that Paul teaches in Romans that there are carnal Jews
and spiritual Jews, right?
Romans 2:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward
in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit,
not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

These were actual religious Jews practicing a form of devotion to YHVH that the Lord rejects.
It is not likely that they referred to themselves as the "synagogue of Satan"

, that is a name
the Lord is applying to this apostates.
Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to
win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

So they are actually Jews who do not worship in Spirit and in Truth, but Jews by birth nonetheless.
Of course, if you met one on the road to Jericho beaten and robbed, you would render assistance.

2BeholdHisGlory · May 17, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Good morning!
I was just reviewing your discussion with Carl, and wanted to comment on the Lord's statement
in Revelation 3:9. I would remind you that Paul teaches in Romans that there are carnal Jews
and spiritual Jews, right?
Romans 2:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward
in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit,
not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

These were actual religious Jews practicing a form of devotion to YHVH that the Lord rejects.
It is not likely that they referred to themselves as the "synagogue of Satan" , that is a name
the Lord is applying to this apostates.
Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to
win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

So they are actually Jews who do not worship in Spirit and in Truth, but Jews by birth nonetheless.
Of course, if you met one on the road to Jericho beaten and robbed, you would render assistance.

Thanks for your reply Minister Monardo, you give me something to consider.

And listen, I will be on vacation shortly, so I wont be able to respond to any of my threads so dont think I'm ignoring ya okay? I'll read and think more carefully about my questions and prepare better answers with some time in the sun.

CMDRExorcist · May 17, 2021

Just some short thoughts related to the questions.

Is this promise void?
I'm not sure that it's a voided promise. Honestly, I see the somewhat incessant conflict as being proof that its part of a biblical plan for Israel to have returned to its homeland.

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.
Just as the redemption of mankind is ongoing, I see the redemption of Israel as ongoing as well. Jews find Jesus every day and nothing in Scripture completely ostracizes them from salvation. It's just that they have forfeited the unique claim to salvation in favor of Christ's redemption for all.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?
God can redeem and restore anyone, anytime, and anywhere he chooses. So I doubt we can be sure that Israel as a people is lost forever.

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?
IMHO, everyone has an ongoing role in God's purpose.

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?
1 Timothy 2:1-2: First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all those who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

I'm not sure that anyone or any nation is hopeless. There's always hope until the last person breathes their last breath or the nation lays down to sleep for the last night.

Mr. M · May 17, 2021

Guojing said:
Do you agree with what I said in that previous thread about the difference between Abraham's descendants between the stars of heaven and sand in the shore?

They are in line with what you are saying above.

Also note the promise to Jacob at his "ladder dream".
Genesis 28:
12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven;
and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and
the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.
14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the
west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the
earth shall be blessed.
15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land;
for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.
Notice He says "the dust of the earth", nothing about stars. The natural descendants of Abraham
are through Jacob. Think about the millions of Jewish people who can trace their lineage to a man
living at that time, Jacob. As did Jesus:
Matthew 1:2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers.

Christ is the spiritual seed of Abraham.
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say,
And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to your Seed, who is Christ.
Reckoned only through Isaac, the child of promise, and further refined by the covenant promise
of the sure mercies of David.
Romans 9:
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, In Isaac your
seed shall be called.
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Acts 13:
33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus.
As it is also written in the second Psalm: You are My Son, today I have begotten You.
34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption,
He has spoken thus: I will give you the sure mercies of David. (Isaiah 55:3)

Guojing · May 18, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Also note the promise to Jacob at his "ladder dream".
Genesis 28:
12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven;
and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and
the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.
14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the
west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the
earth shall be blessed.

Notice He says "the dust of the earth", nothing about stars. The natural descendants of Abraham
are through Jacob. Think about the millions of Jewish people who can trace their lineage to a man
living at that time, Jacob. As did Jesus:

Nice, I was not aware of that passage about Jacob until you brought it up.

I guess that is why Paul called us in the Body of Christ Abraham's descendants, instead of Jacob's descendants.

Out of Jacob came the 12 tribes of Israel, and God named Jacob Israel.

Israel's destiny is to inherit the Earth (Matthew 5:5)

The Body of Christ destiny is in the heavens (Ephesians 1:3), where among other things, we will be judging angels (1 Corinthians 6:3).

I personally believe we in the Body of Christ will be replacing the 1/3 angels who fell with Lucifer.

Carl Emerson · May 18, 2021

Guojing said:
I personally believe we in the Body of Christ will be replacing the 1/3 angels who fell with Lucifer.

Really?

We will be judging angels - they are not eternal beings.

I expect our eternal status to be much more significant.

Guojing · May 18, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Really?

We will be judging angels - they are not eternal beings.

I expect our eternal status to be much more significant.

We will see what really happens when we received our glorified bodies.

My belief stems from why Satan especially hate the revelation of the mystery that was given to Paul.

Had he known that his fallen angels and him would be replaced by us in the Body of Christ, he would not have entered Judas to put Jesus on the cross. (1 Corinthians 2:7-8).

Carl Emerson · May 18, 2021

I think it is more likely, given that the deceiver is self deceived, that he thinks man is not deserving any eternal status as he has behaved little better than an animal.

klutedavid · May 18, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now I believe this passage deserves careful consideration.

Paul is showing great fondness and respect for those whom he refers to as 'kin'.

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Now this was stated in the New Covenant period by Apostle Paul.

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises...

Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today.

Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void.

Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ...

Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...."

Is this promise void?

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?

Paul certainly did not express this.

Israel was grafted out because of unbelief, they stumbled over the rock which was Christ. The covenant that God had with Israel has been annulled.

It takes enormous faith to believe that all Israel will be saved. It must be one of the greatest of the mysteries in the scripture.

Romans 11:32
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

klutedavid · May 18, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
I really dont have a point to make I am trying to see how you answer to scripture and feel out how your answer for things surrounding Israel and the Jews. Whether you regard them according to a blood thing/tribe/or dna thing, how you regard the spirit thing, Synagouge of Satan thing or whether its a religious teaching thing. How do you prove this Israel/ Jews thing even in respects to them which say they are but are not (in respects to deception). Really, just how you measure all these things because I sure dont know thats why I am asking. And I cant make a good call on anything until I ask questions according to scripture and see if I can get something straight between them. Although I am better with those who use just scripture and I should probably not ask you I was curious and I wanted to get a little understanding. Just cross checking key areas.

I don't think that anyone can make a call on the status of Israel. The subject is far too difficult to comprehend.

Gregory Thompson · May 18, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
If someone on the forum posts in a 'private place' that Jews are Anti-Christ under the guise of presenting a devotion - I think it needs to be challenged.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

But they deny the trinity, and that Jesus is the Christ so they are Antichrist according to the scriptures.

If someone is denying the trinity, and that Jesus is the Christ, this indeed needs to be challenged.

Carl Emerson · May 18, 2021

Michael Collum said:
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

But they deny the trinity, and that Jesus is the Christ so they are Antichrist according to the scriptures.

If someone is denying the trinity, and that Jesus is the Christ, this indeed needs to be challenged.

Correct... but to single out Israel when other countries are far worse in their treatment of believers... consider the following...

Rom 11.25
For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in...

This then is a temporary blindness over the Nation.

When this blindness is lifted there will be deep grief and repentance.

Unlike a country like China which has a history of executing and imprisoning Pastors - that is the anti-Christ Spirit at work.

Not seeing the truth - and Hating the truth, are two different things.

Gregory Thompson · May 18, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Correct... but to single out Israel when other countries are far worse in their treatment of believers... consider the following...

Rom 11.25
For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in...

This then is a temporary blindness over the Nation.

When this blindness is lifted there will be deep grief and repentance.

Unlike a country like China which has a history of executing and imprisoning Pastors - that is the anti-Christ Spirit at work.

Not seeing the truth - and Hating the truth, are two different things.

I tend to not see the nation of Israel as it exists today as a biblical entity, but as a repository of displaced people of Jewish descent due to European guilt at the end of World War 2.

I get that the emphasis is needed to be placed on Judaism since there are a lot of people nowadays who are part of a christian tradition but seem more interested in being Jews than Christians.

Since there is overemphasis of judaism nowadays (and not China) a counterbalance is necessary.

Since we are no longer Jew or Gentile, but this point is still not part of many gospels out there and has become a problem.

Carl Emerson · May 18, 2021

Interesting thoughts thanks.

zoidar · Jun 14, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now I believe this passage deserves careful consideration.

Paul is showing great fondness and respect for those whom he refers to as 'kin'.

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Now this was stated in the New Covenant period by Apostle Paul.

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises...

Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today.

Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void.

Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ...

Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...."

Is this promise void?

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?

Paul certainly did not express this.

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery⁠—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation⁠—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
— Romans 11:25-32

What do you make of this? I believe God has a plan for the Jewish people.

"so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy"

"the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable"

"a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

This must mean something.

I don't think that means we are to treat Jews with a special love. We are to love our neighbours, that's the same with all, with the exception to those who are true followers of Jesus, those are we to treat with an extra care.

Carl Emerson · Jun 14, 2021

Yes I agree,

Some by way of calling can have a special love for the Jews, like a missionary has a special love for a people group.

My understanding of God is that He has always got something up His sleeve and He has pretty big sleeves...

Looking at Israel today is as looking at the Valley of Dry Bones, but that is not a problem to Him...

Help with Romans 9:1-5

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Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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