John 17:6-19 Jesus prays for this disciples

mindlight · May 10, 2021

I have to preach this weekend and was hoping to think through the issues in this passage and find a focus for my sermon.

John 17:6-19 (NIV)

6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Footnotes
John 17:6 Greek your name
John 17:11 Or Father, keep them faithful to
John 17:12 Or kept them faithful to
John 17:17 Or them to live in accordance with

Traditionally regarded as being part of Jesus's Farewell discourse this passage is where Jesus shares his prayer life with his disciples and we all get to hear what he really thinks of us. He is preparing them for what comes next and their mission that follows as this is a seminal crossroad moment in his life and ministry.

So he asks for:
1) God's protection on them so that they may be one with Jesus as the Father and He is one.
2) God protects the disciples from the evil one
3) God will sanctify them in the truth.

On a human level, you might hear Jesus asking himself here or at least in the passage s previously whether he had done enough to prepare the disciples to this point, whether they truly loved and understood him as he had hoped. He is mindful that the world hates him and that the end is fast approaching.

This is not a structured prayer as with the Lord's prayer that we are just meant to copy. But it illustrates the sort of holistic way in which Jesus has connected his life to the Father and to the church he loves. So there is a multitude of things addressed here.

In this prayer, He shows us what he really thinks of us. He had repeatedly berated the disciples for their lack of faith or understanding and yet here he affirms them as faithful and holding true to the word. I find that very reassuring as I feel I mess up all the time. But I have a mediator who is keen to magnify even the smallest hint of faith and Godly action in my life into an excuse to forgive me and recommend me to the Father,

Jesus is also speaking in what is called by many commentators the prophetic perfect about things that have not yet come to pass. He assures us that he will not abandon us but will be with us till the end of the world.

Jesus is praying here for our sanctification and that we kept through the name of God, protected by the Father, having the type of unity that reflects the Godhead, keeping us to a high standard that reflects the essential truths of the Christian faith.

He mentions that no one is lost except the son of perdition doomed to destruction.

Even at this difficult time, he is thinking about joy, that his joy may be fulfilled in us. This is remarkable since he knows he is going to the cross very shortly.

So possible focuses I could employ are the following:

1) TRINITY: The whole discussion of the Arian controversy. Jesus is speaking to the Father here as an equal. We have an insight into the Trinitarian relationship and how the church is also an outgrowth of that eternal relationship.

2) THE PROPHETIC PERFECT: If Jesus can see so easily how things are going to be in the future beyond the cross, resurrection, and ascension why worry. He already has the plan of events laid out, we just have to hit subscribe and watch it all play out.

3) THE WAY JESUS PRAYS: The structure is a prayer for unity, protection, and sanctification

4) THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WORLD: We are not called to be raptured out of our troubles but rather to face them head-on as he also faces things head-on. What is the world? The world hates us, is not us and yet we have to be a part of it.

5) The whole Judas thing: Is Judas dammed or just destroyed by his sin. If God knew in advance why was he selected. Was he being used by God?

pdudgeon · May 10, 2021

If I had seen this earlier, and had to choose, my emphasis would be on #4, and #5.
We are not to be conformed to this world, but to be transformed in spite of it's seeming influence and power over us.
That is the first thing that needs to be said.
The second thing is to remind people that--like David--the armor and weapons that God has already provided us with is strong enough and fitted to us specifically.

But we must be especially discerning now and recognize
That though the armor and those weapons given to us by God might seem small and look to be ineffective against the armor that has been provided by the World,
they are not!
They are given for a purpose!!
But they will be ineffective unless we don that armor, pick up those weapons, and go out to conquer the evil that comes against us.

pdudgeon · May 10, 2021

The discerning heart will hear the Word of God, and will indeed see that God has provided and has trained them well for this battle which they will fight.
Pray hard that in hearing God's Holy Word that their eyes might be opened at last, to see the truth of God in these times of deception, and to choose wisely and courageously.

pdudgeon · May 10, 2021

You asked about Judas, and there is a great lesson of God's great wisdom, along with His great mercy In that passage, that many have overlooked.
We know that God is all-seeing, and all-knowing. But here we also see His compassion.
Yes, God knows beforehand what choice Judas will make. But in His great love, we see the comfort offered by God's heart, we hear the pain in Jesus' heart that things will run their course, and we see Judas' utter remorse in his heart, at what he has chosen to do in this World.
And in our hindsight we know that the one single thing that Judas failed to see was God's love for him.
Instead, Judas sought the forgiveness from men, forgetting that forgiveness is one of the greatest acts that God created for those whom He loved, and that he should have sought out God's forgiveness first, and then the forgiveness of men.
Judas had it backwards.

mindlight · May 11, 2021

pdudgeon said:
If I had seen this earlier, and had to choose, my emphasis would be on #4, and #5.
We are not to be conformed to this world, but to be transformed in spite of it's seeming influence and power over us.
That is the first thing that needs to be said.
The second thing is to remind people that--like David--the armor and weapons that God has already provided us with is strong enough and fitted to us specifically.

But we must be especially discerning now and recognize
That though the armor and those weapons given to us by God might seem small and look to be ineffective against the armor that has been provided by the World,
they are not!
They are given for a purpose!!
But they will be ineffective unless we don that armor, pick up those weapons, and go out to conquer the evil that comes against us.

In the middle of a lockdown, people are not exactly engaging with the world to the measure of normal life. But this bible passage was the lull before the storm of passion week. I will try and make the comparison to the pause in our lives forced by the Pandemic. We are returning to a new vaccinated normal world without the fear and enforced isolation of the Pandemic to hold us back. As we return to the world of crowds and interaction and shaking hands with strangers once more we will face new challenges.

The essential focus here to me is that Jesus is saying goodbye (Farewell discourse John 13-17) and he is sharing this to build up the disciples for what comes next. It is they who will now be taking over Jesus's ministry and commission to the world He is opening their eyes to the ways in which they like he will be hated and persecuted, for the distress that will cause them and to encourage them to endure when these troubles come. He is looking forward to the souls that they will win for the Kingdom. He is preparing them for tough times and for the growth of the church. In doing so he is offering a grand vision of our relationship with God, God's protection, the Unity that should exist in the church as a witness to our own oneness with God, and also how the truths he imparts will sanctify us for the coming trials.

To achieve this end he has revealed God's name ( and therefore His nature also) to them. Their belonging is characterized by obedience, they belong to His name when they reflect His nature. He prays to the "Holy Father" a unique naming for the unity of the disciples anticipating the fractious and schismatic influences that would plague the church's witness in the coming centuries. They are to share the whole message of God which they have learned from Jesus with the world. The world will hate them, is opposed to them but they are not called out of it but rather are to face it head on.

BoB/335 · May 13, 2021

My post just disappeared and I now have little time to write all of my thoughts.

This prayer is not for US. It is specifically for the apostles. Calvinists use this passage to include us (actually to be to the elect) but that is NOT the context. All Scripture is FOR us but not all is TO us. Verse 20-21 includes all who WILL believe but then Jesus goes back into the present tense. To use this passage in a sermon as a prayer for us should be reconsidered. My $.02

BoB/335 · May 14, 2021

“They were yours and you gave them to me”

This is a main sticking point with Calvinists. They seem to think that this says that these that this verse was speaking about were “chosen before the foundation of the world” FOR SALVATION! It just does not say that!

A Jewish child was born and raised to believe in the one true God. They were taught the Five Books of Moses. They observed the Passover every year and heard the deliverance of the people of Israel. They saw the lambs led to the slaughter every year.

Just like today, not everyone believes when they reach adulthood. These men WERE believers in the one true God. They anticipated the coming of the Messiah. Jesus said to Peter and Andrew come follow me. They recognized His voice because it was the same Voice that they heard all of their lives. Jesus said that He speaks what He hears from the Father. They then told others that they had found the Messiah. They were the Father’s and the Father gave them to the Son!

My sheep know my voice and the follow me. WHY do the follow? Because they KNOW His voice because they were attuned to it for a long time waiting!

BoB/335 · May 14, 2021

WHO are the sheep? It is NOT us as we have been taught so many times! It is the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL that is mentioned MANY times in Scripture that we just ignore!

mindlight · May 14, 2021

BoB/335 said:
WHO are the sheep? It is NOT us as we have been taught so many times! It is the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL that is mentioned MANY times in Scripture that we just ignore!

Jesus is talking to the disciples and through them to those who will believe through them. Today we are His disciples and the church is still growing.

BoB/335 · May 15, 2021

mindlight said:
Jesus is talking to the disciples and through them to those who will believe through them. Today we are His disciples and the church is still growing.

The lesson to be learned from this discussion is how poorly “we” read the Scriptures!

Read the passage again and tell us WHO Jesus is talking to.

(I am trying to make a point that took me a while to finally get down)

Who, What, Where, When, Why, How

These are the questions we need to CONSTANTLY ask in order to fully understand CONTEXT!

mindlight · May 15, 2021

BoB/335 said:
The lesson to be learned from this discussion is how poorly “we” read the Scriptures!

Read the passage again and tell us WHO Jesus is talking to.

(I am trying to make a point that took me a while to finally get down)

Who, What, Where, When, Why, How

These are the questions we need to CONSTANTLY ask in order to fully understand CONTEXT!

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message John 17:20

This is the context. He prays for his disciples and those who will believe in Him through them. As we become disciples we also become beneficiaries of this prayer. Just as Jesus ministered to and witnessed to and performed miracles for gentiles so also did his disciples and we gentile Christians stand in the same grace as did the disciples. This is not just the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL.

BoB/335 · May 15, 2021

mindlight said:
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message John 17:20

This is the context. He prays for his disciples and those who will believe in Him through them. As we become disciples we also become beneficiaries of this prayer. Just as Jesus ministered to and witnessed to and performed miracles for gentiles so also did his disciples and we gentile Christians stand in the same grace as did the disciples. This is not just the LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL.

You still didn’t answer WHO Jesus is talking to. He is not talking to the disciples. He is talking to the Father.

Verse 20-21 is an add on because verse 22 Jesus goes back to praying for the disciples. And He finishes out the passage and the chapter STILL praying TO the Father FOR the disciples!

BoB/335 · May 15, 2021

Don’t misunderstand me. God so loved the WORLD. He came to His own and His own did not receive Him but to ALL those that do receive Him......... Jesus came and died FOR ALL THE WORLD.

However, His ministry while here on earth was to the lost sheep of Israel. Read Mathew 15:24.
Also Mathew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.7 And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Jesus had to establish that He was the coming Messiah of Israel. The Gentiles didn’t have a clue. Jesus preached on the coming Kingdom. The Gentiles did not have a clue.

He had to convince the Jew of who He was so that the disciples could then bring the message of Salvation to all the world including the Jews. Verse 4 says “I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.” THAT was His mission.

Anyway, I did not join this discussion to have an argument of who Jesus was praying to and praying for. You mentioned your sermon would be on John 17:6-19. Not verse 20 and beyond. I did not see a mention of the prayer being for the disciples (of which it is) and talks about “us” and “our” sanctification (of which it is not)

Nice having this discussion with you!

Have a BLESSED Sermon!!!

Davy · May 16, 2021

mindlight said:
I have to preach this weekend and was hoping to think through the issues in this passage and find a focus for my sermon.

John 17:6-19 (NIV)

6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Footnotes
John 17:6 Greek your name
John 17:11 Or Father, keep them faithful to
John 17:12 Or kept them faithful to
John 17:17 Or them to live in accordance with

Traditionally regarded as being part of Jesus's Farewell discourse this passage is where Jesus shares his prayer life with his disciples and we all get to hear what he really thinks of us. He is preparing them for what comes next and their mission that follows as this is a seminal crossroad moment in his life and ministry.

So he asks for:
1) God's protection on them so that they may be one with Jesus as the Father and He is one.
2) God protects the disciples from the evil one
3) God will sanctify them in the truth.

On a human level, you might hear Jesus asking himself here or at least in the passage s previously whether he had done enough to prepare the disciples to this point, whether they truly loved and understood him as he had hoped. He is mindful that the world hates him and that the end is fast approaching.

This is not a structured prayer as with the Lord's prayer that we are just meant to copy. But it illustrates the sort of holistic way in which Jesus has connected his life to the Father and to the church he loves. So there is a multitude of things addressed here.

In this prayer, He shows us what he really thinks of us. He had repeatedly berated the disciples for their lack of faith or understanding and yet here he affirms them as faithful and holding true to the word. I find that very reassuring as I feel I mess up all the time. But I have a mediator who is keen to magnify even the smallest hint of faith and Godly action in my life into an excuse to forgive me and recommend me to the Father,

Jesus is also speaking in what is called by many commentators the prophetic perfect about things that have not yet come to pass. He assures us that he will not abandon us but will be with us till the end of the world.

Jesus is praying here for our sanctification and that we kept through the name of God, protected by the Father, having the type of unity that reflects the Godhead, keeping us to a high standard that reflects the essential truths of the Christian faith.

He mentions that no one is lost except the son of perdition doomed to destruction.

Even at this difficult time, he is thinking about joy, that his joy may be fulfilled in us. This is remarkable since he knows he is going to the cross very shortly.

So possible focuses I could employ are the following:

1) TRINITY: The whole discussion of the Arian controversy. Jesus is speaking to the Father here as an equal. We have an insight into the Trinitarian relationship and how the church is also an outgrowth of that eternal relationship.

2) THE PROPHETIC PERFECT: If Jesus can see so easily how things are going to be in the future beyond the cross, resurrection, and ascension why worry. He already has the plan of events laid out, we just have to hit subscribe and watch it all play out.

3) THE WAY JESUS PRAYS: The structure is a prayer for unity, protection, and sanctification

4) THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WORLD: We are not called to be raptured out of our troubles but rather to face them head-on as he also faces things head-on. What is the world? The world hates us, is not us and yet we have to be a part of it.

5) The whole Judas thing: Is Judas dammed or just destroyed by his sin. If God knew in advance why was he selected. Was he being used by God?

To me, the most important lesson in His prayer in John 17 is what He reveals about His election of believers. It is probably something difficult to preach on, if one doesn't understand the difference between those called and 'chosen' vs. those are just 'called'.

Lord Jesus shows His Apostles originally belonged to The Father, and they were given to Jesus, and that He sent them into the world, as He was sent into the world. He shows they are already justified, chosen, and we can easily see this per their New Testament witness of Christ choosing them. Jesus prays also for another group of believers too, those who believe on Him through their word, meaning by their preaching of The Gospel. And then both groups, together, Jesus declares are to be 'one' in Him and in The Father.

The Message is that Christ's chosen are sealed, and cannot fall away from Christ. But those called only can still fall away if they themselves allow it. Thus Paul's and Peter's warnings about the end being perilous times with many falling away. They knew what was coming, because Jesus showed His chosen. His desire is to preserve all believers as one body.

BoB/335 · May 16, 2021

Davy said:
To me, the most important lesson in His prayer in John 17 is what He reveals about His election of believers. It is probably something difficult to preach on, if one doesn't understand the difference between those called and 'chosen' vs. those are just 'called'.

Lord Jesus shows His Apostles originally belonged to The Father, and they were given to Jesus, and that He sent them into the world, as He was sent into the world. He shows they are already justified, chosen, and we can easily see this per their New Testament witness of Christ choosing them. Jesus prays also for another group of believers too, those who believe on Him through their word, meaning by their preaching of The Gospel. And then both groups, together, Jesus declares are to be 'one' in Him and in The Father.

The Message is that Christ's chosen are sealed, and cannot fall away from Christ. But those called only can still fall away if they themselves allow it. Thus Paul's and Peter's warnings about the end being perilous times with many falling away. They knew what was coming, because Jesus showed His chosen. His desire is to preserve all believers as one body.

There is no doctrine of election in this passage as addressed in reply #7. Ephesians 1:13 says you were SEALED with the promise of the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED. Some think you can lose your salvation and others think they are KEPT by the Power of God. I know which “I” am.

Davy · May 17, 2021

BoB/335 said:
There is no doctrine of election in this passage as addressed in reply #7. Ephesians 1:13 says you were SEALED with the promise of the Holy Spirit when you BELIEVED. Some think you can lose your salvation and others think they are KEPT by the Power of God. I know which “I” am.

That is man's OSAS doctrine, not God's Word, because especially Apostle Paul warned brethren against falling away...

Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV

2 Tim 4:2-4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV

2 Peter 2:1-2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
KJV

BoB/335 · May 17, 2021

You gave no references of losing salvation or being UNborn Again then being born again again then being UNborn again!

Where is it said the “falling away” = losing salvation?

Davy · May 17, 2021

BoB/335 said:
You gave no references of losing salvation or being UNborn Again then being born again again then being UNborn again!

Where is it said the “falling away” = losing salvation?

2 Peter 2:1-2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Maybe you have difficulty in reading?

BoB/335 · May 17, 2021

Davy said:
2 Peter 2:1-2
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Maybe you have difficulty in reading?

I guess I do because I see NOTHING about losing or not losing salvation in your reference! Maybe you could spell it out for me.

Davy · May 22, 2021

BoB/335 said:
I guess I do because I see NOTHING about losing or not losing salvation in your reference! Maybe you could spell it out for me.

I just did spell it out for you, which actually was Apostle Peter speaking to you in that 2 Peter 2:1-2 example, but you refuse to listen.

It's very easy to get into a 'religious' fervor with men's leaven doctrines that are designed to increase the treasury. Men promising salvation for a price was the very thing which caused Martin Luther to create his 95 Theses against ills the Roman Church was doing for money. The OSAS doctrine is a leaven doctrine added by men. The only ones who cannot fall away are the 'chosen' sent ones, and God's Word gives clear examples of those, like Jonah, Apostle Paul, and the other Apostles.

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