How to fall from grace

Sidon said:

IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the law

2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".
However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.
This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the law".

the "curse of the law" is : '"the power of sin, IS the law".

So, to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the curse of the law.
The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.
This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
So, when a believer is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".
And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it? But, that is the case with most Christians.
Which explains why most Christians have the false idea that you are supposed to sin and confess.
But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.
Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.
So they are trying to do it, and therefore "apart from me you can do NOTHING"< is in full force within their broken discipleship.
When this happens, the person has begun to try to stay saved, of themselves.
Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".
Imagine believing that you of yourself have the same capacity as Christ's Blood.
And that is what most believers are engaged in, as their mistaken idea of God's Grace.
Paul refers to this as "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth."
Paul refers to these born again as being ""in the flesh".
The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.
To have gotten into self saving or to have fallen from Grace, is to come to a place where you are trying by performance, by self effort, to do what only the Grace of God has provided, based on the Blood Atonement.
And Saint, this has already been accomplished for you, 2000 yrs ago, as "The GIFT of Salvation".

Click to expand...

So ... what do make of this biblical admonition to the saints ?

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.

Sidon said:

IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the law

2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".
However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.
This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the law".

the "curse of the law" is : '"the power of sin, IS the law".

So, to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the curse of the law.
The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.
This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
So, when a believer is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".
And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it? But, that is the case with most Christians.
Which explains why most Christians have the false idea that you are supposed to sin and confess.
But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.
Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.
So they are trying to do it, and therefore "apart from me you can do NOTHING"< is in full force within their broken discipleship.
When this happens, the person has begun to try to stay saved, of themselves.
Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".
Imagine believing that you of yourself have the same capacity as Christ's Blood.
And that is what most believers are engaged in, as their mistaken idea of God's Grace.
Paul refers to this as "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth."
Paul refers to these born again as being ""in the flesh".
The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.
To have gotten into self saving or to have fallen from Grace, is to come to a place where you are trying by performance, by self effort, to do what only the Grace of God has provided, based on the Blood Atonement.
And Saint, this has already been accomplished for you, 2000 yrs ago, as "The GIFT of Salvation".

Click to expand...

Paul was referring to being justified by the 613 Laws of Moses, and He was not referring to the Law of Christ (i.e. the Laws of Christ) (Compare the first half of Romans 8:2 with the second half of Romans 8:2). Paul was talking about trying to be saved by Works Alone without God's grace in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5. For Paul was fighting against a false belief of that time of which I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” You can read about this false belief in Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. This was a false belief saying that a person could only be initially saved unless they are first circumcised. But if a person made circumcision the basis or foundation of their salvation, then they would be making a Work or the Law the foundation of their salvation (Instead of faith in Jesus Christ and His grace). Paul said if you seek to be circumcised, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2). This is the Law that Paul is referring to (Galatians 5:4). Circumcision is a part of the Old Testament Law (the 613). But again, Paul is not against the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness. For Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. Also, Paul says in Titus 1:16 that a person can deny God by a lack of works. This would be works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11) after being saved by God's grace and not man directed works.

Anyways, believers are not under the Laws of Moses as whole. We do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, be circumcised, keep the dietary laws, or offer animal sacrifices, etc. Just look at the context every time Paul refers to the words like “law” or “works” generically. You will find that in most cases, these words are tied to the Old Law (the 613 which are no longer binding as a whole or contract deal, or as an entire package). Yes, certain Laws have been repeated in the Law of Christ or in the New Covenant, but Paul was not speaking about disobeying our Lord and turning His grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). For if one believes that all they have to do is “trust in Jesus alone as their Savior + nothing” and they tell a child this and they never see that child again, then that child could potentially grow up to be the next George Sodini or Kenneth Nally (whether one wants that to happen or not).

Remember what happened in LA Fitness Gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009? When a man named George Sodini fired 50 rounds into an aerobic class before turning the gun on himself. The shooting resulted four deaths (including Sodini himself) and nine injured. George Sodini was a member of the Tetelestai Church where he sat quietly for many years, listening to the deceptions of his preacher. Talking about the pastor of his Church, Sodini wrote in his blog dated Dec. 31, 2008,


And in a post dated August 3, 2009, Sodini said;


Kenneth Nally, another believer of the idea that a believer is saved by “Jesus + nothing” committed suicide in 1980 after he was taught that even self-murder would not stop a person once saved from going to heaven.

So no. I don't believe OSAS, Eternal Security, or the “Free Will Baptist Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief” leads a believer to overcome sin, but I believe it leads them to justify it on some level or way. For we have seen people who believe in the “Jesus + nothing” type believe lead people to justify horrible types of sins. This is the true fruit of such a belief (IMHO - In my humble opinion).

Anyways, whether you agree or disagree, may God's good ways be upon you.

Sidon said:

IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the law

2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".
However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.
This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the law".

the "curse of the law" is : '"the power of sin, IS the law".

So, to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the curse of the law.
The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.
This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
So, when a believer is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".
And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it? But, that is the case with most Christians.
Which explains why most Christians have the false idea that you are supposed to sin and confess.
But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.
Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.
So they are trying to do it, and therefore "apart from me you can do NOTHING"< is in full force within their broken discipleship.
When this happens, the person has begun to try to stay saved, of themselves.
Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".
Imagine believing that you of yourself have the same capacity as Christ's Blood.
And that is what most believers are engaged in, as their mistaken idea of God's Grace.
Paul refers to this as "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth."
Paul refers to these born again as being ""in the flesh".
The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.
To have gotten into self saving or to have fallen from Grace, is to come to a place where you are trying by performance, by self effort, to do what only the Grace of God has provided, based on the Blood Atonement.
And Saint, this has already been accomplished for you, 2000 yrs ago, as "The GIFT of Salvation".

Click to expand...

It's not either/or, but both/and. God enlists us to cooperate with His grace-for our betterment, for our own good. But we can refuse the enlistment- or go AWOL later.
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

Sidon said:

IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the law

2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".
However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.
This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the law".

the "curse of the law" is : '"the power of sin, IS the law".

So, to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the curse of the law.
The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.
This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
So, when a believer is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".
And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it? But, that is the case with most Christians.
Which explains why most Christians have the false idea that you are supposed to sin and confess.
But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.
Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.
So they are trying to do it, and therefore "apart from me you can do NOTHING"< is in full force within their broken discipleship.
When this happens, the person has begun to try to stay saved, of themselves.
Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".
Imagine believing that you of yourself have the same capacity as Christ's Blood.
And that is what most believers are engaged in, as their mistaken idea of God's Grace.
Paul refers to this as "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth."
Paul refers to these born again as being ""in the flesh".
The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.
To have gotten into self saving or to have fallen from Grace, is to come to a place where you are trying by performance, by self effort, to do what only the Grace of God has provided, based on the Blood Atonement.
And Saint, this has already been accomplished for you, 2000 yrs ago, as "The GIFT of Salvation".

Click to expand...

Have you personally stopped sinning?

Sidon said:

IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the law

2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".
However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.
This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the law".

the "curse of the law" is : '"the power of sin, IS the law".

So, to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the curse of the law.
The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.
This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
So, when a believer is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".
And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it? But, that is the case with most Christians.
Which explains why most Christians have the false idea that you are supposed to sin and confess.
But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.
Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.
So they are trying to do it, and therefore "apart from me you can do NOTHING"< is in full force within their broken discipleship.
When this happens, the person has begun to try to stay saved, of themselves.
Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".
Imagine believing that you of yourself have the same capacity as Christ's Blood.
And that is what most believers are engaged in, as their mistaken idea of God's Grace.
Paul refers to this as "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth."
Paul refers to these born again as being ""in the flesh".
The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.
To have gotten into self saving or to have fallen from Grace, is to come to a place where you are trying by performance, by self effort, to do what only the Grace of God has provided, based on the Blood Atonement.
And Saint, this has already been accomplished for you, 2000 yrs ago, as "The GIFT of Salvation".

Click to expand...

Or just outright - scripture

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Speaking of scripture -

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Heb 3
2 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Matt 18 Christ's teaching

‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”


Matt 13 Christ's teaching

5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

To any true Christian today, it should be obvious that the once-saved-always-saved doctrine of man is an attack on the warning passages in The New Testament against falling away from Christ, and instead enduring to the end in the Faith.

Lord Jesus through His Apostles told us to repent to Him when we slip and sin after having believed and been baptized (1 John 1; Luke 11). The OSAS followers even try to strip that 1 John 1 chapter of its obvious meaning for believers on Christ, and they deny the Luke 11 prayer where Jesus showed us how to pray, which tells us to ask forgiveness of our sins and of those who sin against us.

So this OSAS movement should be obvious what it's goal is, i.e., to try and remove needed repentance from the believer, so those do not keep their 'walk' with Christ, losing their direct relationship with Him.

Sidon said:

There is no sin in Christ.
All the born again are "in Christ."

There is no Sin in Heaven., and all the born again, are "seated in Heavenly places, in Christ".

So, can you have sin, and be there?
No you can't.
So what has happened to all the born again's sin?

A.) Christ BECAME SIN on the Cross. and if you are saved, if you are born again, then He has all of yours.

This is why Romans 4:8 tells you that God does not charge the born again, with sin.
Not ever.
Never again.

So, "sinning and confessing", happens because a person does not yet understand that Jesus "became their sin" on the Cross.

Also, a person confesses and repents after they are saved, because they have completely misunderstood a single verse that John wrote.
And because of this, they have a broken faith, that operates as self righteousness.

Like this...bling

"ok, i sinned again, and now my fellowship with God is broken again, so, to resolve it again, i confess again, and then God saves me again".
Well, no He doesn't.
So, this deceived person is playing a game of...>lost it, get it back....lost my salvation, get it back".
And that is a lifetime of mental suffering that will not stop, until this person comes to understand God's Grace AS the Blood Atonement.

See, the sacrifice that Jesus provided is a ONE TIME ETERNAL SACRIFICE, that we dont try to repeat by confessing and repenting.
What we are to do, is REST in Gods' Grace that has already made us righteous. "The GIFT of Righteousness".

WE have to learn to live here...... Hebrews 13:9

Click to expand...

This does not answer my simple question: “Have you personally stopped sinning?”

I understand that a Christian’s sins are washed away immediately, but you seem to be saying something more, like some Christians sins and some do not sin or sin is not sin for a Christian (God does not charge the born again, with sin)?

We understand we do not sin in heaven, but can we/do we/should we be in the same way sinless here on earth?





Do you feel Christ became a sinner or what does that mean to you?

First off 2 Cor. 5:21 in the NIV and has as a footnote: b.2 Corinthians 5:21 Or be a sin offering since

The word translated “sin” just has to do with sin and does not mean just “sin” but you have to come up with something to explain it, so the NIV translators just give you another possibility.

What do you think: “to be sin on our behalf” means, since other places we know Christ is our sin offering and would fit the explanation in the Greek? Isaiah 53:10 supports the definition of it being a “guilt offering” and not making him “sin” meaning something else?

You quote:

“2 Cor 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”

This is an extremely important verse to show imputing our sins to Christ, so the imputing of righteousness to man seems logical, BUT:

Is that even a good translation?

What does “Christ made to be sin” or “Christ made sin” mean: did Christ become a sinner, did a being become an intangible thing like “sin” and are there other scripture to help us with this?

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

Sidon said:

IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.
1. Under the law
2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".

Click to expand...

Well, you are headed in the right direction in your post, but you make some contra-NT turns along the way.

Actually, all are born condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18) and
by nature (birth) are objects of Gods wrath (Ephesians 2:3.)

No one is under the law for righteousness since the death of Christ, the New Covenant order.
The Old Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), no longer in force for anyone.

However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.

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That is contra-NT teaching:
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10)

This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

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Contra-NT teaching to 1 John 1:8-10.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the law".

the "curse of the law" is : '"the power of sin, IS the law".

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The curse of the law is condemnation to eternal death.

So, to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the curse of the law.

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Correct.

The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.

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No, the curse of the law is condemnation to eternal death.

This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.

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Contra-Christian reality. . .you have assigned a pathethic, inadequate, insufficient, weak, helpless, incomplete salvation in Jesus Christ to 99% of Christians!

They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

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Actually, it is you who takes away "the victory" with your inadequate and incomplete salvation.

Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
So, when a believer is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".
And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it? But, that is the case with most Christians.
Which explains why most Christians have the false idea that you are supposed to sin and confess.
But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

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Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.

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To fall from grace (for righteousness) is to fall back under the law for righteusness, not to fall back "into faith in self."
There is no righteousness under the law because no one can keep it as required to earn righteousness.

Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but
few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.

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Few? . . .Contra-Christian reality.
Permanent salvation by the blood is the bedrock of Protestantism (Reformed Christianity).

So they are trying to do it, and therefore "apart from me you can do NOTHING"< is in full force within their broken discipleship.
When this happens, the person has begun to try to stay saved, of themselves.
Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".
Imagine believing that you of yourself have the same capacity as Christ's Blood.
And that is what most believers are engaged in, as their mistaken idea of God's Grace.

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Your exposure to Protestant Christianity is rather limited.

Paul refers to this as "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth."
Paul refers to these born again as being ""in the flesh".

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In the flesh is according to the unregenerate (sinful) nature, while in the Spirit is according to the regenerate nature (of the Holy Spirit).
Self effort does not mean being in the flesh (sinful nature).

The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

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Actually, "the flesh" means according to the unregenerate "sinful nature."

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.
To have gotten into self saving or to have fallen from Grace, is to come to a place where you are trying by performance, by self effort, to do what only the Grace of God has provided, based on the Blood Atonement.

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Self-effort is not the sinful nature (flesh).
The sinful nature (flesh) is the disposition to sin, to law-breaking, not to the law-keeping of self effort.
Self-effort is simply futility, it is not the flesh (sinful nature).

And Saint, this has already been accomplished for you, 2000 yrs ago, as "The GIFT of Salvation"

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Sidon said:

This part of your post is the revelation, so i pasted it.
Notice it says that the doers of the Law will be justified.

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1. Notice that "justification" is a Gospel context.
2. Notice the success examples in the chapter
3. Law written on the heart - is a gospel concept/context - in fact New Covenant concept

We "see" success in these verses

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

...14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

Sidon said:

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".

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Notice the rest of that verse...

Rom 6: 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace? Far from it! 16 Do you not know that the one to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of that same one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

So then Rom 3:31
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

No wonder Paul says in 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Sidon said:

.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

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They must do as Paul did 1 Cor 9:
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

Sidon said:

Well, noone is able to do all the law, and everyone has broken the 10 Commandments.
"all have sinned, all have fallen short".
"there is NONE Righteous, NOT ONE">
"all our works are as filthy rags".

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All have sinned but we are still commanded to Love God and John tells us "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3


As you point out --
Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.

Sidon said:

.
So, when a believer is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".

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That was where he was in Romans 7 but notice the next chapter Rom 8:4-12 where he points out that it is only the lost person that "does not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they submit to it"

Sidon said:

Christians can "fall from grace".

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True. Gal 5:4 makes that clear .. ."severed from Christ" ... "Fallen from Grace".

And so not too surprising to see the Matt 18 teaching of Christ about "forgiveness revoked".

Sidon said:

IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the law

2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".
However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.
This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the law".

the "curse of the law" is : '"the power of sin, IS the law".

So, to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the curse of the law.
The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.
This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
So, when a believer is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".
And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it? But, that is the case with most Christians.
Which explains why most Christians have the false idea that you are supposed to sin and confess.
But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.
Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.
So they are trying to do it, and therefore "apart from me you can do NOTHING"< is in full force within their broken discipleship.
When this happens, the person has begun to try to stay saved, of themselves.
Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".
Imagine believing that you of yourself have the same capacity as Christ's Blood.
And that is what most believers are engaged in, as their mistaken idea of God's Grace.
Paul refers to this as "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth."
Paul refers to these born again as being ""in the flesh".
The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.
To have gotten into self saving or to have fallen from Grace, is to come to a place where you are trying by performance, by self effort, to do what only the Grace of God has provided, based on the Blood Atonement.
And Saint, this has already been accomplished for you, 2000 yrs ago, as "The GIFT of Salvation".

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Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was saying that we are not under. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin. Paul said that the Law of God is not sinful , but how we know what sin is (Romans 7:7), that it is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) and that he delighted in obeying (Romans 7:22), but contrasted that with the law of sin, which stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), and which is a law that is sinful. When the Law of God reveals our sin, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, the law of sin causes sin to increase, so it is the opposite of the Law of God, so verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God are referring to the law of sin, such as Romans 5:20, 1 Corinthians 15:56, Galatians 2:19, and Galatians 5:16-18. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin how dominion over us, which does not describe the law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, but rather it is again the law of sin where sin had dominion over us.

It is not the case that there is a God of graciousness and a different God of righteousness and we need to be choose which one to be under, but rather those have always been compatible character traits of the same God, which He expressed throughout both the OT and the NT (Exodus 34:6-7), so the third option is under both grace and the Law of God, but not the law of sin. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by making known to him His ways that he might know Him, and His people too, and there are many verses that describe the Law of God as being instructions for how to walk in His ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and to choose the way of faithfulness.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so our salvation is being saved from living in transgression of the Law of God so that we can be free to live in obedience to it, so the saved are under the Law of God and not under lawlessness. It is contradictory for someone who think that they aren't under the Law of God to also think that they need salvation from transgressing it. In Ephesians 2:10, we have been made new creations in Christ in order to do good works, and the Law of God is His instructions for how to do good works, so the born again person who goes back under lawlessness is rejecting being born again. In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do that is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God is what it means to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), while to return to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is rejecting what he accomplished on the cross.

In Deuteronomy 28:1-14, it lists the blessings of living in obedience to the law while verse 15-68 list the curses for living in disobedience to the law, so being set free from the curse of the law is being set free to enjoy the blessing of the law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law of God, so our obedience to it has always been about putting our faith in Christ and has never been about trying to earn our salvation through having a good enough performance. In Romans 4:4-5, our justification is not something that can be earned as a wage, so the Law of God was never given as a means of earning our justification. The way to fall from grace is by refusing to come under the Law of God.

Sidon said:

Paul would never tell anyone they can be justified by any law or any commandment.
If he did that he'd be lying.
In fact, he said that trying to do that is "dung"...

Read Philippians 3

So, Paul teaches only justification by faith through the blood of Jesus.

As a matter of fact, the OT Covenant, > God removed, as God said He "found Fault" with it.
Hebrews 8:7
The reason that God found fault with The OT, the Old Covenant, and law and commandments, is because they can't give you righteousness, and that is why He "found fault" with all that, and replaced it with what CAN give you Righteousness.
This is the New Testament BLood Atonement, that you find as Jesus dying for your sin.
So, based on the Blood of Jesus, we find that God created a New Covenant, a NEW TESTAMENT, and this is all based on the Cross and the Blood of Jesus and Faith.

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In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of obeying the Law of God is to know Christ, and that should influence how to correctly interpret Philippians 3:8, where Paul had been obeying the law without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted that as dung.

In Hebrews 8:7-10, it does not say that God found fault with His law, but rather it says that the fault that he found was with the people for not continuing in their covenant, which is why the New Covenant will involve God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts.

Sidon said:

There is no sin in Christ.
All the born again are "in Christ."

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In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Law of God.

Sidon said:

This part of your post is the revelation, so i pasted it.
Notice it says that the doers of the Law will be justified.

Well, noone is able to do all the law, and everyone has broken the 10 Commandments.
"all have sinned, all have fallen short".
"there is NONE Righteous, NOT ONE">
"all our works are as filthy rags".

So, the law and commandments are holy, and we are not....so says the Law and Commandments.
This means that we need to be rescued from our sin and from ourselves, and from the "curse of the Law".

ENTER : God on The Cross.

A.) Sin resolved and Righteousness Restored.

Q.) How? By the SHED Blood and Death and Resurrection of Jesus

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The fact that only does or the Law of God will be justified means that you should be speaking in favor of obeying it unless you don't want people to become justified. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His law is not too difficult to obey. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In Romans 3:10, he was referencing Psalms 14:1-3, where it is only speaks about those who say that there is no God. In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people complaining, when in reality the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).