Has a cessationist ever turned into a continuationist after witnessing/experiencing a sign gift?

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

topher694 said:
This is quickly straying beyond the SOP for this particular forum.

You are right... I apologize - someone pressed my passion button.

JAL · May 16, 2021

Albion said:
Oh, give it a chance.

Do you have any idea what they might be, 'cause I hardly used any "arguments" at all in my reply to the poster who asked me a question.

If signs ceased to be what they were in the early church, then cessationism is proven. It's that simple.

No, it doesn't.

How many times does it have to be said that this doesn't matter. It doesn't change anything.

If they cease, they've ceased so far as cessationism goes. If they were to stop and start up again as you are saying, cessationism is still proven correct. There would be a stoppage, which is almost the only point cessationistm makes or needs to make in order to win the debate.

One of the strongest arguments that continuationists try to make is that the gifts CANNOT cease, so if they admit that they did cease and then started up again later, they've also wiped out their premise that no cessation could happen.

Merely repeating your earlier assertions does not rebut what I said. Again, you're putting words in our mouths. Certainly I myself, and I think most other continuationists as well, believe that a high degree of quiescence is possible if the church doesn't fan the gifts into flame. Thus your emphasis on quiescence is a strawman.

Did I mention that it's also a methodological contradiction? I've pointed that out to you before. Cessationists claim that charismatics shouldn't rely on empirical experience to affirm the gifts - they should only rely on Scripture. And yet the cessationist argument from history (i.e. the historic quiescence) is an empirical argument!

JAL · May 16, 2021

@Albion,

Here's Paul's definition of a church/church-government. It's the only definition that I accept:

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues" (1Cor 12:28).

All other definitions are man-made. If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me your own personal summary of church government and point to the verse that clearly articulates it.

BTW I'm not opposed to man-made institutions (we've got to start somewhere after all). I am, admittedly, disappointed that today's leaders don't admit them to be such.

TruthSeek3r · May 16, 2021

Albion said:
Well, what I think you have described is a single event occurring with a single person, and this out of all the people in the world.

If that were the case, and there was even a little time between such episodes, perhaps none at all, wouldn't that basically answer the question that the gifts had ceased for all intents and purposes?

Nope. First of all, the expression "for all intents and purposes" is quite ambiguous and handwavy, so if you don't provide a formal threshold, I'm afraid we'll just be arguing semantics and talking past each other. Secondly, I don't see why talking in terms of average time between consecutive events would make an event non-existent. In everyday life it's very common to hear estimates such as "there is one car accident every X seconds", "a person dies from a stroke every X minutes", etc. Does that make car accidents and strokes non-existent for all intents and purposes?

Albion said:
Remember, this is not some mathematical demonstration; the outpouring of the gifts in the early days of the church happened for a reason, and that was to facilitate the spread of the faith into a doubting and even hostile world.

Two things:

1) Quote: "[...] that was to facilitate the spread of the faith into a doubting and even hostile world". Aren't we in a doubting and even hostile world at this very moment too?

2) The gifts of the Spirit were intended for the common good of the Church too, this is explicitly stated in 1 Cor 12:4-11:

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Albion said:
Is that indeed the case?

You can watch and read some testimonies on this link.

atpollard · May 16, 2021

This seems a rather ... academic ... discussion of a fundamentally empirical question (the OP and Title).

I have nothing to offer for “famous pastors” since I make it a policy not to give the testimony of others without direct first-hand knowledge (to avoid mis-information and gossip). However as someone that went from Atheist to Continuationist, I guess that I once qualified as the ultimate ‘cessationists’. Spiritual Gifts played the same part in my conversion as they did in the Book of Acts. So “continuationism” makes perfect sense to me (even if a lot that passes for so called ‘gifts of the spirit’ do not).

@Carl Emerson
I am not quite sure where your questions and passionate statements violate the Statement of Purpose, but I wanted to respond. I do not believe that the Church has derailed God’s plan by ‘grieving the Spirit’, nor do I believe that the “flash” of the Holy Spirit is any sort of effective measure of how and where God is working or how ‘spiritual’ and particular individual or gathering of individuals is.

My personal experience and observation is more of “the right tool for the job”. God heals some to show that He can, and God leaves others with their thorn in the flesh to prove that Satan is still wrong in his accusation of Job as well as to remind all of us that “His grace really is sufficient.”

If God flooded the Church in the USA with people that could lay hands and cure cancer with 100% effectiveness, we would fill our buildings with people grateful for healing or seeking to earn a miracle or hoping to get rich along with the “church”. Would any of that really advance the goal for which Christ died? Would that draw people to repent of sin, proclaim Christ as Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead [Romans 10:9-10]?

The real miracle of the Holy Spirit is the change that takes place within. The new heart and mind and spirit. The real Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to individuals as God determines the need for the service of the BODY.

Remember that the eyes of the LORD search to and fro for someone in whom He may show Himself strong. How many times does “Glossolalia” really represent the God showing Himself strong for the benefit of His Body, and how often is it the speaker that is getting the glory?

I attend a church where a man was raised from the dead and another man had his cancer eaten face regrow. However if you visit that church, they will brag to you about the love that they found there and the growth in the character of the men that attend the Men of Valor fellowship. You will be hard pressed to find someone that wants to talk about the Miracles God has done, except to acknowledge that “our God is still in the miracle business.”

It isn’t about the “Christians” or the “church” it is all about worshiping the God that “does as he pleases and does it right well” (Corrie Ten Boon).

JAL · May 16, 2021

Albion said:
How could a cessationist be turned into a continuationist by witnessing a sign of the Holy Ghost in action? The premise is flawed.

Let me get this straight. Your claim is:
(1) I don't see gifts happening. This proves cessationism.
(2) If someone DOES see gifts happening, it proves - nothing!

Isn't that epistemology a bit one-sided?

Albion said:
How could a cessationist be turned into a continuationist by witnessing a sign of the Holy Ghost in action?

At that point he finds himself motivated to reexamine the Scriptures and, having done so, finally admits to himself that cessationist arguments aren't worth the paper they were printed on. For example, he remembers that Jesus healed the sick out of compassion and therefore could not possibly have wanted/intended a decline of the gifts.

atpollard · May 16, 2021

Nabeel Asif Qureshi
“Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus” would be a continuationist testimony by an Evangelist.

topher694 · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
You are right... I apologize - someone pressed my passion button.

Lol, I share the passion. I'm afraid in this particular case it pretty much fruitless to pursue, imo.

topher694 · May 16, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
Has ever a cessationist Christian become a continuationist for first-hand experiential reasons? Are there published testimonies from ex cessationists who became continuationists after they had a first-hand experience with a sign gift or witnessed someone else exercising a sign gift?

If possible, I'd be especially interested in reading testimonies published by reputable former cessationists, say, a renowned cessationist Baptist pastor who had an experience that turned him into a continuationist, etc.

To provide a different angle to this... if one were to experience an event as you describe and yet hold on to their cessation beliefs, then we are entering blasphemy of the Holy Spirit territory.

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

atpollard said:
This seems a rather ... academic ... discussion of a fundamentally empirical question (the OP and Title).

I have nothing to offer for “famous pastors” since I make it a policy not to give the testimony of others without direct first-hand knowledge (to avoid mis-information and gossip). However as someone that went from Atheist to Continuationist, I guess that I once qualified as the ultimate ‘cessationists’. Spiritual Gifts played the same part in my conversion as they did in the Book of Acts. So “continuationism” makes perfect sense to me (even if a lot that passes for so called ‘gifts of the spirit’ do not).

@Carl Emerson
I am not quite sure where your questions and passionate statements violate the Statement of Purpose, but I wanted to respond. I do not believe that the Church has derailed God’s plan by ‘grieving the Spirit’, nor do I believe that the “flash” of the Holy Spirit is any sort of effective measure of how and where God is working or how ‘spiritual’ and particular individual or gathering of individuals is.

My personal experience and observation is more of “the right tool for the job”. God heals some to show that He can, and God leaves others with their thorn in the flesh to prove that Satan is still wrong in his accusation of Job as well as to remind all of us that “His grace really is sufficient.”

If God flooded the Church in the USA with people that could lay hands and cure cancer with 100% effectiveness, we would fill our buildings with people grateful for healing or seeking to earn a miracle or hoping to get rich along with the “church”. Would any of that really advance the goal for which Christ died? Would that draw people to repent of sin, proclaim Christ as Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead [Romans 10:9-10]?

The real miracle of the Holy Spirit is the change that takes place within. The new heart and mind and spirit. The real Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to individuals as God determines the need for the service of the BODY.

Remember that the eyes of the LORD search to and fro for someone in whom He may show Himself strong. How many times does “Glossolalia” really represent the God showing Himself strong for the benefit of His Body, and how often is it the speaker that is getting the glory?

I attend a church where a man was raised from the dead and another man had his cancer eaten face regrow. However if you visit that church, they will brag to you about the love that they found there and the growth in the character of the men that attend the Men of Valor fellowship. You will be hard pressed to find someone that wants to talk about the Miracles God has done, except to acknowledge that “our God is still in the miracle business.”

It isn’t about the “Christians” or the “church” it is all about worshiping the God that “does as he pleases and does it right well” (Corrie Ten Boon).

Totally agree - so what statement are you taking issue with?

Albion · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Well you seem to be motivated by rational analysis (which has its place) but I am motivated by the excitement of participating in the harvest with gifts operating. Because of this the priority for me is the celebration of life and the determination to share this as best I can. The best analysis pales into insignificance as Thomas discovered when he encountered the risen Jesus.

You choose to believe whatever seems the most exciting, whether or not it's true?

Well the church seems to downplay the loss of gifts and even worse downplays the role that unity and community had in the Church's glorious beginnings.

I don't see any evidence of that.

atpollard · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Totally agree - so what statement are you taking issue with?

That we can’t talk about it.

Albion · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Are you saying we no longer have a doubting and hostile world ?????

No, I said that an explanation for God's granting the gifts in the early days but them not being a common feature of the church in later times most likely owes to them having achieved their purpose.

Albion · May 16, 2021

JAL said:
Merely repeating your earlier assertions does not rebut what I said.

Because it was rebutted the first time around?

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

Albion said:
You choose to believe whatever seems the most exciting, whether or not it's true?

No...

I don't see any evidence of that.

You mean you church operates as in early Acts?

Carl Emerson · May 16, 2021

Albion said:
No, I said that an explanation for God's granting the gifts in the early days but them not being a common feature of the church in later times most likely owes to them having achieved their purpose.

Yes, that is commonly the excuse given.

Strangely these same Churches send out missionaries who do operate in the gifts of the Spirit out of necessity, being on the cutting edge of the Kingdom.
However when they return home...

Albion · May 16, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
Nope. First of all, the expression "for all intents and purposes" is quite ambiguous and handwavy, so if you don't provide a formal threshold, I'm afraid we'll just be arguing semantics and talking past each other.

Okay. For the sake of the conversation, I tried to play along with the quite unrealistic scenario you posed, but really, the question that was put to me was so abstract and theoretical that it doesn't help get to the bottom of this controversy at all.

The gifts were a common and powerful witness in the Apostolic Church, helping to spread the faith to skeptical pagan peoples. In time, they became only occasional. The people who recognize this truth have been termed cessationists. The people who want to think that the gifts have always operated in the same way as they did in the early church are called continuationists even though the gifts clearly are not playing the role that they did then.

Albion · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
You mean you church operates as in early Acts?

I was just rephrasing your explanation about how you come to your beliefs. Frankly, it surprised me and I was giving you the opportunity to correct or explain it.

Albion · May 16, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Yes, that is commonly the excuse given.

Excuse? That IS the history of the Church. No excuses are necessary for Christians who are cessationists since the basic stance of cessationists is that ordinary history refutes the claims of continuers that the gifts are, in every way, the same as they have been throughout the 2000 years of the Christian experience.

topher694 · May 16, 2021

Albion said:
Okay. For the sake of the conversation, I tried to play along with the quite unrealistic scenario you posed, but really, the question that was put to me was so abstract and theoretical that it doesn't help get to the bottom of this controversy at all.

The gifts were a common and powerful witness in the Apostolic Church, helping to spread the faith to skeptical pagan peoples. In time, they became only occasional. The people who recognize this truth have been termed cessationists. The people who want to think that the gifts have always operated in the same way as they did in the early church are called continuationists even though the gifts clearly are not playing the role that they did then.

From the SOP:

This is a safe house forum for those members who believe that the sign gifts are still active today. Criticizing or mocking members who hold that view is not allowed. If you wish to debate whether or not the sign gifts are still active today, please start a thread in the General Theology forum.

Last chance. Knock it off.

Has a cessationist ever turned into a continuationist after witnessing/experiencing a sign gift?

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