Has a cessationist ever turned into a continuationist after witnessing/experiencing a sign gift?

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TruthSeek3r

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Has ever a cessationist Christian become a continuationist for first-hand experiential reasons? Are there published testimonies from ex cessationists who became continuationists after they had a first-hand experience with a sign gift or witnessed someone else exercising a sign gift?

If possible, I'd be especially interested in reading testimonies published by reputable former cessationists, say, a renowned cessationist Baptist pastor who had an experience that turned him into a continuationist, etc.
 
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JAL

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Has ever a cessationist Christian become a continuationist for first-hand experiential reasons? Are there published testimonies from ex cessationists who became continuationists after they had a first-hand experience with a sign gift or witnessed someone else exercising a sign gift?

If possible, I'd be especially interested in reading testimonies published by reputable former cessationists, say, a renowned cessationist Baptist pastor who had an experience that turned him into a continuationist, etc.
Jack Deere seems to be a good example.
Jack Deere - Wikipedia
 
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Albion

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Has ever a cessationist Christian become a continuationist for first-hand experiential reasons? Are there published testimonies from ex cessationists who became continuationists after they had a first-hand experience with a sign gift or witnessed someone else exercising a sign gift?

If possible, I'd be especially interested in reading testimonies published by reputable former cessationists, say, a renowned cessationist Baptist pastor who had an experience that turned him into a continuationist, etc.

How could a cessationist be turned into a continuationist by witnessing a sign of the Holy Ghost in action? The premise is flawed.

To be a cessationist doesn't mean believing that no gifts of the Holy Ghost are ever given to anybody after a certain date in history...not under any circumstances.

What the concept refers to is the decline and then ending of the once-widespread appearance of these gifts as an important part of the life of the Church. That did happen. It's not that the Holy Ghost can't grant some individual the gift of healing, for example, at some time in modern history.
 
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Carl Emerson

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How could a cessationist be turned into a continuationist by witnessing a sign of the Holy Ghost in action? The premise is flawed.

To be a cessationist doesn't mean believing that no gifts of the Holy Ghost are ever given to anybody after a certain date in history...not under any circumstances.

What the concept refers to is the decline and then ending of the once-widespread appearance of these gifts as an important part of the life of the Church. That did happen. It's not that the Holy Ghost can't grant some individual the gift of healing, for example, at some time in modern history.

The question that arises from this observation is - was this a result of a weakening and compromised church - or - Did God specifically plan it that way...
 
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Albion

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The question that arises from this observation is - was this a result of a weakening and compromised church - or - Did God specifically plan it that way...
In a way, it doesn't matter. What makes a continuationist a continuationist is believing that there never was a break in the pattern. If there was such....then that POV is shown to be in error.
 
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Carl Emerson

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In a way, it doesn't matter. What makes a continuationist a continuationist is believing that there never was a break in the pattern. If there was such....then that POV is shown to be in error.

Sorry Albion - can you expand on that please, I am struggling to get your point.
 
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Albion

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Okay, and I'm going on what I think you were asking. I could be wrong about that.

You asked if a cessation of the gifts was 1) God's doing or 2) just the consequence of the church growing weaker or flawed.

My answer was that it doesn't matter which of those it is, or neither of them. What matters is whether or not the gifts did cease. (My personal view is that they had by that time accomplished the purpose for which they had been given, the conversion of masses of pagans)

A continuationist says that the gifts did not cease. But if they did, then continuationism is refuted, no matter what the reason for the cessation was.

This is why debates between continuationists and cessationists often take a certain course, with the former citing scripture and giving several different reasons why they think that the gifts couldn't end...and the cessationists content to defend their stance by merely pointing out that it happened!

For the latter, it isn't necessary to give any reason at all, since if the gifts ceased, then their POV (cessationism) is proven correct. Period.
 
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JAL

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@Albion, you operate on so many flawed premises that it's not even funny. I myself and others have pointed out the flaws in your premises time and again and yet you continue to voice the same tired old "arguments" (if I should even so dignify them with that term).
What matters is whether or not the gifts did cease. (My personal view is that they had by that time accomplished the purpose for which they had been given, the conversion of masses of pagans)
Why has that purpose ceased? God is no longer interested in the conversion of masses of pagans? He doesn't love our generation as much as previous ones?

A continuationist says that the gifts did not cease. But if they did, then continuationism is refuted, no matter what the reason for the cessation was.
Self-defeating argument. The cessationists themselves claim that there was a quiescence/ cessation of gifts for huge periods of OT history. If such a decline of the gifts proves cessationism, then, by that logic, the gifts ceased in the OT!

This is why debates between continuationists and cessationists often take a certain course, with the former citing scripture and giving several different reasons why they think that the gifts couldn't end...and the cessationists content to defend their stance by merely pointing out that it happened!
(Sigh) As has been pointed out to you a thousand times, a quiescence of the gifts doesn't prove that they ceased IRREVOCABLY (as I just demonstrated in preceding paragraph) - it only proves that the church isn't operating in ways that properly fan them into flame, the church has strayed.

For the latter, it isn't necessary to give any reason at all, since if the gifts ceased, then their POV (cessationism) is proven correct. Period.
See comments above. Flawed premises lead to flawed conclusions. Period.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Okay, and I'm going on what I think you were asking. I could be wrong about that.

You asked if a cessation of the gifts was 1) God's doing or 2) just the consequence of the church growing weaker or flawed.

My answer was that it doesn't matter which of those it is, or neither of them. What matters is whether or not the gifts did cease. (My personal view is that they had by that time accomplished the purpose for which they had been given, the conversion of masses of pagans)

A continuationist says that the gifts did not cease. But if they did, then continuationism is refuted, no matter what the reason for the cessation was.

This is why debates between continuationists and cessationists often take a certain course, with the former citing scripture and giving several different reasons why they think that the gifts couldn't end...and the cessationists content to defend their stance by merely pointing out that it happened!

For the latter, it isn't necessary to give any reason at all, since if the gifts ceased, then their POV (cessationism) is proven correct. Period.

Yes I get that...

But the question of what God intended remains unanswered.

If a church falls into compromise the Spirit can be grieved and withdraw - we were warned of this in Revelation.

While scripture indicated there would be a falling away - this was surely not God's doing.

As today is the day of Salvation... Today is the day of obedience, today is the day of revival, today is the day of doing works even greater than His, It is not that He is not willing, the harvest is ripe but the laborers are few.

So to insist on a theology that insists that the Church must be weak seems to me to be blatantly anti-Christ.

I don't usually express myself so strongly, but in this case we seemed to have justified the dry bones and turned a blind eye yet again to our lack of impact in the world.

If I see throngs of new converts being attracted to cessational churches I will change my mind.

At the same time I question the excesses of the modern church movement overplaying God's work.
 
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Albion

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@Albion, you operate on so many flawed premises that it's not even funny.
Oh, give it a chance. ;)

I myself and others have pointed out the flaws in your premises time and again and yet you continue to voice the same tired old "arguments" (if I should even so dignify them with that term).
Do you have any idea what they might be, 'cause I hardly used any "arguments" at all in my reply to the poster who asked me a question.

If signs ceased to be what they were in the early church, then cessationism is proven. It's that simple.

Self-defeating argument. The cessationists themselves claim that there was a quiescence/ cessation of gifts for huge periods of OT history. If such a decline of the gifts proves cessationism, then, by that logic, the gifts ceased in the OT!
No, it doesn't.

As has been pointed out to you a thousand times, a quiescence of the gifts doesn't prove that they ceased IRREVOCABLY (as I just demonstrated in preceding paragraph)
How many times does it have to be said that this doesn't matter. It doesn't change anything.

If they cease, they've ceased so far as cessationism goes. If they were to stop and start up again as you are saying, cessationism is still proven correct. There would be a stoppage, which is almost the only point cessationistm makes or needs to make in order to win the debate.

One of the strongest arguments that continuationists try to make is that the gifts CANNOT cease, so if they admit that they did cease and then started up again later, they've also wiped out their premise that no cessation could happen.
 
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Albion

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Yes I get that...

But the question of what God intended remains unanswered.
Maybe, but how do you react to what I said my personal view of the matter is?

If a church falls into compromise the Spirit can be grieved and withdraw - we were warned of this in Revelation.
Sure, but it doesn't necessarily lead us to the gifts ceasing or not ceasing.

While scripture indicated there would be a falling away - this was surely not God's doing.

As today is the day of Salvation... Today is the day of obedience, today is the day of revival, today is the day of doing works even greater than His, It is not that He is not willing, the harvest is ripe but the laborers are few.

So to insist on a theology that insists that the Church must be weak seems to me to be blatantly anti-Christ.
Well, yes, if we ask about "blatantly anti-Christ," then you'd have to be right.

However, so far as the gifts go, do you think that this massive falling away is what happened towards the end of the ancient church? That would be a difficult argument to make, IMO. If the church of the present is seen as in rapid decline, well, that's too late for the ceasing of the original gifts to be a consequence.

I don't usually express myself so strongly, but in this case we seemed to have justified the dry bones and turned a blind eye yet again to our lack of impact in the world.

If I see throngs of new converts being attracted to cessational churches I will change my mind.

At the same time I question the excesses of the modern church movement overplaying God's work.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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If they cease, they've ceased so far as cessationism goes. If they were to stop and start up again as you are saying, cessationism is still proven correct. There would be a stoppage, which is almost the only point cessationistm makes or needs to make in order to win the debate.

What is the maximum amount of time between miracles that you are willing to accept for cessationism to be false? Say, if there is one miracle in the world every minute, or every hour, or every day, or every month, would you count that as cessationism or continuationism? What about one miracle every year? What about one miracle every 10 years, every 100 years, etc.? What is the threshold?

Also, what about geographical distribution? Say, if lots of miracles take place in remote third world areas where there is intense missionary activity, but almost none in developed countries, would you consider that as cessationism, continuationism, partial cessationism and partial continuationism, or what?
 
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topher694

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What is the maximum amount of time between miracles that you are willing to accept for cessationism to be false? Say, if there is one miracle in the world every minute, or every hour, or every day, or every month, would you count that as cessationism or continuanism? What about one miracle every year? What about one miracle every 10 years, every 100 years, etc.? What is the threshold?

Also, what about geographical distribution? Say, if lots of miracles take place in remote third world areas where there is intense missionary activity, but almost none in developed countries, would you consider that as cessationism, continuationism, partial cessationism and partial continuanism, or what?
Excellent post. This nicely illustrates why the cessation argument is silly.

If a church choses not to pursue the gifts of the Spirit, that in no way means God ceased to make them available. And there have always been at least a few that have chosen to pursue them to some degree or another.
 
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Albion

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What is the maximum amount of time between miracles that you are willing to accept for cessationism to be false? Say, if there is one miracle in the world every minute, or every hour, or every day, or every month, would you count that as cessationism or continuationism?
Well, what I think you have described is a single event occurring with a single person, and this out of all the people in the world.

If that were the case, and there was even a little time between such episodes, perhaps none at all, wouldn't that basically answer the question that the gifts had ceased for all intents and purposes? Remember, this is not some mathematical demonstration; the outpouring of the gifts in the early days of the church happened for a reason, and that was to facilitate the spread of the faith into a doubting and even hostile world.

Also, what about geographical distribution? Say, if lots of miracles take place in remote third world areas where there is intense missionary activity, but almost none in developed countries, would you consider that as cessationism, continuationism, partial cessationism and partial continuationism, or what?
Is that indeed the case?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Maybe, but how do you react to what I said my personal view of the matter is?

Well you seem to be motivated by rational analysis (which has its place) but I am motivated by the excitement of participating in the harvest with gifts operating. Because of this the priority for me is the celebration of life and the determination to share this as best I can. The best analysis pales into insignificance as Thomas discovered when he encountered the risen Jesus.

Sure, but it doesn't necessarily lead us to the gifts ceasing or not ceasing.

If the Spirit withdraws from a church the gifts will not be able to operate.

However, so far as the gifts go, do you think that this massive falling away is what happened towards the end of the ancient church? That would be a difficult argument to make, IMO. If the church of the present is seen as in rapid decline, well, that's too late for the ceasing of the original gifts to be a consequence.

Well the church seems to downplay the loss of gifts and even worse downplays the role that unity and community had in the Church's glorious beginnings.

This seems to be the nub of the issue - we have such good christian systems that continue whether He shows up or not.
 
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Carl Emerson

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the outpouring of the gifts in the early days of the church happened for a reason, and that was to facilitate the spread of the faith into a doubting and even hostile world.

Are you saying we no longer have a doubting and hostile world ?????
 
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