Taken out of the way...

orbiter · May 9, 2021

Peace.

The answer to the question of who holds back the wicked until he is taken out of the way in 2nd Thessalonians is found in the story of Lot living and lingering around in Sodom.

The presence of Lot in Sodom had prevented the destruction of the wicked who he was keeping company with. He had to be “taken out of the way” before the destruction of the wicked.

Yet, Lot “lingered” before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Because of God's mercy, he and his family were removed out of the way.

Genesis 19:15-17 KJV
(15) And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
(16) And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
(17) And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed

Lot “lingered” and had to be physically removed so that the righteous would not be destroyed along with the wicked as God promised Abraham. This is the thought process for understanding 2nd Thessalonians 2:7.

Genesis 18:23-33 KJV
(23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
(24) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
(25) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
(26) And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Only he who now “letteth” (think about righteous LOT here lingering around in Sodom) will let until he be taken out of the way (the angels/men had to literally grab Lot and his family by the hand and take them out of the way). The wicked are "protected" so to speak by the presence of the righteous among them.

2 Thessalonians 2:
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Only when Lot was removed then the wicked were destroyed.

The Day of Christ can only come when the righteous that are in the churches of men are removed from the presence of the unbelievers (the wicked) who will speak evil against what they will hear the Lord speaking.

They will not be able to bear His words spoken in the Spirit of Truth. They will be “tormented” by what He has to say. They shall be consumed with the spirit/breath of His mouth as they will speak all kinds of evil at His messages/words and shall be destroyed with the brightness of His coming….that is, His PRESENCE. The righteous will keep His daily sacrifice...the Lamb slain....as they will not return evil for the evil of the "tares" that are to be burned.

(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The righteous must be removed first from the company of the wicked before the Day of Christ for God had told Abraham that He would spare the place for the righteous’ sake. There must be a “harvest” first. "Lot" who lingered must be removed out of the way first.

There must be a separation of the tares from the wheat and this comes at the presence of the Lord who comes in the end of this age to open up the Scriptures to our hearing ears and minds.

Hearing His heavenly interpretation of the Scriptures will divide the believers of His words from the unbelievers of His words. The unbelievers will seek to cling on to their churches’ earthly interpretations of the Bible.

The wicked shall not believe in what they hear the Lord saying in the Spirit of Truth…in the Scripture of Truth….while the wheat will believe and depart from the unbelievers’ churches/presence as commanded.

The righteous shall not be destroyed along with the wicked in the coming Day of Christ as they must separate from their presence first before hand. The tares and the wheat shall be separated before the tares are burned.

The "reapers" are His "angels"...His words of life and spirit. They will be spoken and will divide the believers (the wheat) from the unbelievers of His words.

Matthew 13:29-30 KJV
(29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Yet, some believers will be as Lot and “linger” around in the churches of earthly-acting men.

They will continue to “dwell” among them as they will hear them speak evil against the Word of Truth in defense of their church doctrines and commandments of men. Some believers who will linger around will be railed against for receiving the Word of Truth. If they will not leave, then they will be caught up in the iniquity of the city so-to-speak as they will be tempted to render back evil for their evil. The longer they stay, the worse the temptation will be to return evil for evil. Those who will "linger" will be "vexed" with the evil speakings of the wicked who will speak evil against you for believing in what you hear.

2 Peter 2:6-9 KJV
(6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)

Yet, the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of the temptations (the temptation to render evil back for the unjust evil directed at them) and to reserve the unjust UNTO THE DAY of Judgement to be punished...the Day of Christ. The Lord will not destroy the righteous with the wicked as they must be first delivered from “dwelling” among the wicked.

(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The wheat must be all gathered together unto the Lord Jesus Christ in this coming time….even those believers who will continue to “linger” around in the churches of unbelievers that they were once in agreement with.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 KJV
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

When the righteous finally depart from their presence, then this leaves the wicked alone/revealed who will speak all kinds of evil against those whom have left their churches.

(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When the righteous leave (as Lot did Sodom), then comes the Day of Christ as it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed them all the same day lingering Lot finally WENT OUT of Sodom who had lingered around there until he was taken out of the way. We do not see this yet happening as the harvest (separation of the wheat and tares) must happen first.

Luke 17:28-30 KJV
(28) Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
(29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

To be continued…

dqhall · May 9, 2021

orbiter said:
Peace.

The answer to the question of who holds back the wicked until he is taken out of the way in 2nd Thessalonians is found in the story of Lot living and lingering around in Sodom.

The presence of Lot in Sodom had prevented the destruction of the wicked who he was keeping company with. He had to be “taken out of the way” before the destruction of the wicked.

Yet, Lot “lingered” before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Because of God's mercy, he and his family were removed out of the way.

Genesis 19:15-17 KJV
(15) And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
(16) And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
(17) And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed

Lot “lingered” and had to be physically removed so that the righteous would not be destroyed along with the wicked as God promised Abraham. This is the thought process for understanding 2nd Thessalonians 2:7.

Genesis 18:23-33 KJV
(23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
(24) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
(25) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
(26) And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Only he who now “letteth” (think about righteous LOT here lingering around in Sodom) will let until he be taken out of the way (the angels/men had to literally grab Lot and his family by the hand and take them out of the way). The wicked are "protected" so to speak by the presence of the righteous among them.

2 Thessalonians 2:
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Only when Lot was removed then the wicked were destroyed.

The Day of Christ can only come when the righteous that are in the churches of men are removed from the presence of the unbelievers (the wicked) who will speak evil against what they will hear the Lord speaking.

They will not be able to bear His words spoken in the Spirit of Truth. They will be “tormented” by what He has to say. They shall be consumed with the spirit/breath of His mouth as they will speak all kinds of evil at His messages/words and shall be destroyed with the brightness of His coming….that is, His PRESENCE. The righteous will keep His daily sacrifice...the Lamb slain....as they will not return evil for the evil of the "tares" that are to be burned.

(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The righteous must be removed first from the company of the wicked before the Day of Christ for God had told Abraham that He would spare the place for the righteous’ sake. There must be a “harvest” first. "Lot" who lingered must be removed out of the way first.

There must be a separation of the tares from the wheat and this comes at the presence of the Lord who comes in the end of this age to open up the Scriptures to our hearing ears and minds.

Hearing His heavenly interpretation of the Scriptures will divide the believers of His words from the unbelievers of His words. The unbelievers will seek to cling on to their churches’ earthly interpretations of the Bible.

The wicked shall not believe in what they hear the Lord saying in the Spirit of Truth…in the Scripture of Truth….while the wheat will believe and depart from the unbelievers’ churches/presence as commanded.

The righteous shall not be destroyed along with the wicked in the coming Day of Christ as they must separate from their presence first before hand. The tares and the wheat shall be separated before the tares are burned.

The "reapers" are His "angels"...His words of life and spirit. They will be spoken and will divide the believers (the wheat) from the unbelievers of His words.

Matthew 13:29-30 KJV
(29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Yet, some believers will be as Lot and “linger” around in the churches of earthly-acting men.

They will continue to “dwell” among them as they will hear them speak evil against the Word of Truth in defense of their church doctrines and commandments of men. Some believers who will linger around will be railed against for receiving the Word of Truth. If they will not leave, then they will be caught up in the iniquity of the city so-to-speak as they will be tempted to render back evil for their evil. The longer they stay, the worse the temptation will be to return evil for evil. Those who will "linger" will be "vexed" with the evil speakings of the wicked who will speak evil against you for believing in what you hear.

2 Peter 2:6-9 KJV
(6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)

Yet, the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of the temptations (the temptation to render evil back for the unjust evil directed at them) and to reserve the unjust UNTO THE DAY of Judgement to be punished...the Day of Christ. The Lord will not destroy the righteous with the wicked as they must be first delivered from “dwelling” among the wicked.

(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The wheat must be all gathered together unto the Lord Jesus Christ in this coming time….even those believers who will continue to “linger” around in the churches of unbelievers that they were once in agreement with.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 KJV
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

When the righteous finally depart from their presence, then this leaves the wicked alone/revealed who will speak all kinds of evil against those whom have left their churches.

(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When the righteous leave (as Lot did Sodom), then comes the Day of Christ as it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed them all the same day lingering Lot finally WENT OUT of Sodom who had lingered around there until he was taken out of the way. We do not see this yet happening as the harvest (separation of the wheat and tares) must happen first.

Luke 17:28-30 KJV
(28) Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
(29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

To be continued…

In 79 AD Mt Vesuvius erupted. Hot gas and volcanic ash rapidly engulfed the cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum. People were killed instantly. The buildings were preserved under layers of thick volcanic ash. Archaeologists were able to determine what life was like there in first century times. Archaeologists found the word “Sodom” written on the wall of house in Pompeii.

The only way out is to believe in Christ. Perhaps God was able to tell one or two to leave Pompeii before it erupted. I remember a man reported he had a premonition not to board a jet plane that crashed before reaching its destination. All the others boarded the plane and perished.

SongOnTheWind · May 9, 2021

Agreed!

As God's people, and Christ's body here on earth, we restrain a lot of darkness, and a LOT of judgement by our prayers and intercession for our loved ones and for the lost. Evil prevails when good people do nothing. Well, we do something. We have the power of life and death in our tongues, and when we pray for God to forgive, when we pray for God's mercy, when we pray for His kingdom to come and His will to be done, we are changing the landscape because God answers prayer. The effective prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

When we are no longer here to stand in the gap because we have been raptured away, and there is no one left on earth for the Holy Spirit to work through... that's it! Restraint is gone! Which begs a question which will open up a whole other can of worms about when the rapture will be (pre, mid or post

). I'll leave that alone for a while and see what others have to say!

orbiter · May 15, 2021

Peace.

Thank you both for the friendly input!

The premonition …so-to-speak …that we shall have shall be within us when it comes to knowing the presence of the Lord. We shall know with surety it is Him speaking within our very own hearts and we shall know to depart the congregations of unbelievers in this coming time.

We shall know it is the Son within our own hearts when He comes to speak to us.

It is the “sign” of the Son of man in those who be focusing on those things (peace, love, joy, kindness, etc) in heaven.

This “sign” shall be in “heaven”….in those who are earthly citizens of heaven as they focus on those things above in this terra firma.

Those who are “earthly” minded will “mourn” what they hear Him saying as they will not be focusing on love, joy, peace, patience, etc.

We have a contrast here: those who dwell upon the things in heaven and those who dwell on earthly things.

Matthew 24:30 KJV
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sign of the Son of man shall “appear”…that is, SHINE.

Our very own, once-darkened hearts shall begin to shine as the “light” dawns within us when we hear His voice interpreting the Scripture of Truth.

The words of men (in their earthly, “private” interpretations of the Scriptures) do not bring about this within our very own hearts. There shall be a dramatic difference between the words of false prophets and the Son as the Son’s presence shall be made apparently obvious within each of us who shall hear His voice.

2 Peter 1:17-21 KJV
(17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

The Voice from Heaven( speaking in the Spirit of Truth) shall interpret the Scriptures in this coming time….and we shall know it is His beloved Son (whom we are to hear as He speaks) by the bright and “morning star” dawning within our very own hearts.

The light shall shine in a “dark place”…within our hearts…as the “day star” (that is, the morning star) shall arise in our hearts. This is the “evening and the morning” of our hearts when He shall come and speak to us. The evening = the darkened heart. The morning = the dawning of His light within our once-darkened hearts.

We have this personal surety then that He is the real deal….the true Son of God whom we are to hear as He speaks.

(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The coming….that is, the presence…of the Son of man….shall be evident within us as the “lightening comes out of the east and shines unto the west.”

The “lightening” = bright shining. The “east” = dawn, rising of light. The “west” = to sink, sunset.

The bright light shall shine within our very own hearts where His light shall begin to dawn (the east so to speak) in our very own hearts in a “dark place” where the sun had previously sunk and left us in the darkness of our hearts. It will be very apparent when He speaks to us.

We shall then know that this is the Son speaking to us as He comes to deliver us from false prophets who have come forth in multitudes to deceive and destroy many people from this earth.

Matthew 24:27 KJV
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The many false prophets (and the many false Christs that they are preaching) do not have this effect upon our hearts when they preach their brand of “another Jesus” to us in their earthly, private interpretations of the Bible.

They have to rely upon “signs and wonders” to deceive us.

They use their performance of outward, GREAT signs (such as the BIG one: literal water baptism) to deceive us. Literal water baptism is a BIG SIGN that they use to even cause the very elect to waver ….to be possibly deceived by them. Who does not waver over literal water baptism which is being used by false prophets to deceive those who literally see the performance of the outward sign of water baptism?

They use “wonders”…that is flattering words to deceive us into admiring and following them. They are great speakers…charismatic.

Matthew 24:23-25 KJV
(23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(25) Behold, I have told you before.

Their “great swelling words” are the “wonders” that they use….having men’s persons in “admiration” (wonders…admiration) because of advantage.

They do this to take advantage of the sheep that they are leading astray. The sheep are not being fed with the Word of Truth and are perishing from this earth without the life of Jesus being made manifest in their outward mortal flesh.

Jude 1:16 KJV
(16) These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

They are spiritual “Amalekites”…..which means the “people who lick”.

They come with the flattering tongues to deceive us. They lick us so-to-speak with flattery….dogs. Beware of dogs….the flattery of false prophets.

Many have become “weary and feeble” in well doing and so are easily deceived by them just as they are escaping the world’s pollutions….just as they are escaping “Egypt” so to speak.

The come forth and meet us by the Way of righteousness… to those who are just escaping “Egypt” and they smite those who have become “feeble” in well doing.

Deuteronomy 25:17-18 KJV
(17) Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
(18) How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.

The “Amalekites”….the people who lick us (as dogs do) with their flattery…..speak “great swelling words” of emptiness. They come to us by the Way of righteousness. They come to those who are just escaping “Egypt” in order to deceive those who have become feeble and weary in well doing as they do not fully practice the holy commandment to have love for one another.

2 Peter 2:18-22 KJV
(18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The Lord comes to open up the Scripture of Truth to our hearing ears. He comes to deliver us from those false prophets who are not feeding us with the Word of Truth and are leading us down the broad way to the destruction of our mortal bodies.

The false prophets have come to remove the keeping of His daily sacrifice (the dying of our Lord Jesus in our mortal bodies) from our earthly lives so that His eternal life never is made manifest in this earth.

The eternal life of Jesus is to be made manifest (outward shining in this dark world) in our mortal bodies in the here-and-now. But this message is not being preached by false prophets. We do not hear this in any church of earthly-thinking men.

2 Corinthians 4:10-11 KJV
(10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
(11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

The presence of the false prophets among us now and is in accordance with the working of Satan in order to deceive those who do not love… do… the truth. They come with all power and signs and lying wonders. We have been in tribulation brought on by them.

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

We have been in tribulation to this day as they…the false prophets…in accordance with the working of Satan afflict us and kill us (preventing the eternal life of Jesus from being made manifest in this earth ) and have brought the hatred of all of the nations upon us. They preach "another Jesus" and so the nations hate us for His name's sake.

We as His people should be the head and not the tail in this world….but listening to and following after the many false prophets have brought the hatred of the nations upon us. The nations speak evil of us and the Way of righteousness because of the many false prophets and the many that follow after them. They blaspheme the name of God.

The false prophets do not preach the Word of Truth so that the eternal life of Jesus is never made outwardly manifest in the mortal flesh of anyone who follows them … keeping company with them in their churches. It has been a day of slaughter as many, many are following the many false prophets down the broad way to the destruction of their mortal flesh from this earth.

Matthew 24:9-11 KJV
(9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
(10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
(11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

We must be delivered from them and this is what our Savior does when He comes to open up the Scriptures to our minds. He comes to enlighten us so that we may depart from the many false prophets and their churches where the eternal life of Jesus is being prevented from ever appearing.

We are to have His eternal life in this earth now….showing the world the open evidence that Jesus is indeed alive as we are to be kept alive in this earth through His eternal life.

And like Enoch, we shall not then see death but shall be transferred over in due time after the kingdoms of this world become His.

Hebrews 11:5 KJV
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch walked with God and “he was not”. He was not found. His mortal body did not die. Enoch lived to the “vanishing point” in this earth and did not see death as he was transferred over. He was no longer here. This is the kind of “rapture” I hope to see….one without death.

Genesis 5:24 KJV
(24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

To live “forever” is to live to the “vanishing point” where God shall transfer us over. Hebrew for “forever” is “olam” which means “to the vanishing point”.

Genesis 3:22 KJV
(22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Davy · May 16, 2021

The Daniel 10 chapter, which speaks of events going on in the Heavenly, mentions the Archangels Gabriel and Michael, and the prince of Persia (symbol for Satan) is being held back.

Thus the one doing the withholding in 2 Thess.2 is most likely the Archangel Michael, since Revelation 12:7-9 reveals Michael is the one Satan will war in Heaven with when Satan is cast down to this earth with his angels at the end of this world.

Those men who come up with all sorts of other ideas that preach a false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory are just as confused as non-believers are because they don't follow the simple Scriptures, but just enough to instead make things up as they go along.

SongOnTheWind · May 16, 2021

Davy said:
The Daniel 10 chapter, which speaks of events going on in the Heavenly, mentions the Archangels Gabriel and Michael, and the prince of Persia (symbol for Satan) is being held back.

Thus the one doing the withholding in 2 Thess.2 is most likely the Archangel Michael, since Revelation 12:7-9 reveals Michael is the one Satan will war in Heaven with when Satan is cast down to this earth with his angels at the end of this world.

Those men who come up with all sorts of other ideas that preach a false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory are just as confused as non-believers are because they don't follow the simple Scriptures, but just enough to instead make things up as they go along.

That's your opinion, brother.

Shalom

Davy · May 17, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
That's your opinion, brother.

Shalom

No, actually ideas that it's The Holy Spirit or something else other than the one who kicks Satan out of Heaven that is opinion.

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Dan 10:13
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
KJV

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV

SongOnTheWind · May 17, 2021

Davy said:
No, actually ideas that it's The Holy Spirit or something else other than the one who kicks Satan out of Heaven that is opinion.

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Dan 10:13
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
KJV

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV

This is definitely what Daniel experienced. How it will be at the end may well be something in the same vein, but no one knows for sure. But one day, all will be revealed. For now, we can just speculate, and discuss. If you are so strongly convicted, then by all means continue as you are led. The does not mean I have to agree with your interpretation of scripture.

Again, be blessed

Davy · May 22, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
This is definitely what Daniel experienced. How it will be at the end may well be something in the same vein, but no one knows for sure. But one day, all will be revealed. For now, we can just speculate, and discuss. If you are so strongly convicted, then by all means continue as you are led. The does not mean I have to agree with your interpretation of scripture.

Again, be blessed

Well, when it happens as written, then maybe you'll then clearly see it unfold. For me, it's easy to see how God placed certain Scriptures in His Word that are actually anchors that cannot be moved or changed which point to future coming events. Afterall, that is one of His main purposes in giving us His Book of Revelation. Yet many other Bible Scriptures have 'anchors' in them that helps unlock Revelation too, so it's not just a matter of singling out a specific Book or verse to know these things coming.

SongOnTheWind · May 22, 2021

Davy said:
Well, when it happens as written, then maybe you'll then clearly see it unfold. For me, it's easy to see how God placed certain Scriptures in His Word that are actually anchors that cannot be moved or changed which point to future coming events. Afterall, that is one of His main purposes in giving us His Book of Revelation. Yet many other Bible Scriptures have 'anchors' in them that helps unlock Revelation too, so it's not just a matter of singling out a specific Book or verse to know these things coming.

These things happened during Daniel's lifetime. They may well repeat in the same way, but God can also choose to do things another way too. We all see in part, none of us has the full picture, except the Lord Himself. Let's remember that.

Shalom

Davy · May 22, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
These things happened during Daniel's lifetime. They may well repeat in the same way, but God can also choose to do things another way too. We all see in part, none of us has the full picture, except the Lord Himself. Let's remember that.

Shalom

Actually no, not all the Daniel 9 prophetic 70 weeks happened in Daniel's day. I don't know where you got that idea.

The 69 sevens ended with the cutting off of Messiah (i.e., Christ's crucifixion).
That was 483 years from the going forth of the commandment to build Jerusalem in 454 B.C.

There is one final seven left still unfulfilled today. The 70th week is still yet to happen.

The prophecy given through Daniel is accurate according to the periods of sevens given, and the specific events God's Word attaches to each period. So to try and infer that God's people are lame like they can't understand that Scripture goes directly against God's command to Daniel about the last days. We are now living in the... last days, so the prophecy is open to God's people who care enough to stay with what the Scripture actually says, and not men's speculations.

SongOnTheWind · May 23, 2021

Davy said:
Actually no, not all the Daniel 9 prophetic 70 weeks happened in Daniel's day. I don't know where you got that idea.

The 69 sevens ended with the cutting off of Messiah (i.e., Christ's crucifixion).
That was 483 years from the going forth of the commandment to build Jerusalem in 454 B.C.

There is one final seven left still unfulfilled today. The 70th week is still yet to happen.

The prophecy given through Daniel is accurate according to the periods of sevens given, and the specific events God's Word attaches to each period. So to try and infer that God's people are lame like they can't understand that Scripture goes directly against God's command to Daniel about the last days. We are now living in the... last days, so the prophecy is open to God's people who care enough to stay with what the Scripture actually says, and not men's speculations.

Actually, you are talking to me as though I don't understand scripture. We just simply have different interpretations. I don't see why that bothers you. I disagree with you, it doesn't mean that you're wrong, it just means we have different points of view. You see one thing, I see something else. Neither of us is denying scripture, so I do wish that you wouldn't accuse me of doing so. If you have to be acquiesced to in order to feel better, I'm not going to give that to you simply because you demand it. I am after the truth, not the truth just as a certain person on Christian Forums sees it, but God's truth. I will not be bullied into agreement and I will not brush my own views aside to make you feel better. Let's discuss and treat each other with respect, please. Otherwise there really is no point if you don't allow the necessary room for said discussion, is there?

Davy · May 24, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
Actually, you are talking to me as though I don't understand scripture. We just simply have different interpretations. I don't see why that bothers you. I disagree with you, it doesn't mean that you're wrong, it just means we have different points of view. You see one thing, I see something else. Neither of us is denying scripture, so I do wish that you wouldn't accuse me of doing so. If you have to be acquiesced to in order to feel better, I'm not going to give that to you simply because you demand it. I am after the truth, not the truth just as a certain person on Christian Forums sees it, but God's truth. I will not be bullied into agreement and I will not brush my own views aside to make you feel better. Let's discuss and treat each other with respect, please. Otherwise there really is no point if you don't allow the necessary room for said discussion, is there?

When you say things like, "These things happened during Daniel's lifetime," that proposes an idea that is not in the Scripture. An idea inserted into the Scripture is not a valid interpretation, it is an opinion only.

And when you suggest that we both could be right, because we each have our own interpretation, you are by that wrongly suggesting there is no right or wrong interpretation of God's written Word. And that of course is not true at all.

SongOnTheWind · May 24, 2021

Davy said:
When you say things like, "These things happened during Daniel's lifetime," that proposes an idea that is not in the Scripture. An idea inserted into the Scripture is not a valid interpretation, it is an opinion only.

And when you suggest that we both could be right, because we each have our own interpretation, you are by that wrongly suggesting there is no right or wrong interpretation of God's written Word. And that of course is not true at all.

Sorry, you are not God. You do not have a perfect interpretation of the Word of God. You do not know it all.

Daniel wrote down what happened in his lifetime. So did Moses. And Moses wrote the first five books of the bible, the first book of which even predates his own life. It's all scripture. I don't see how you could view it otherwise, as it's literally there as scripture in the bible.

So one of us HAS to be wrong and it can't be you, right?

I'm so sorry that you feel that way. It's hard to have an open, mature discussion with people who are literally not open to discussion and treat their words and interpretation as infallible, and everyone else's as error. Even Paul was humble enough to admit that we all see only in part. I guess you think you're above Paul too. I hope not. I hope I'm wrong, but that is certainly the impression that you're giving. But you certainly don't have to care what I think. Do what you want, believe what you want. No one is twisting your arm, here.

I pray all goes well with you. Be blessed.

Davy · May 24, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
Sorry, you are not God. You do not have a perfect interpretation of the Word of God. You do not know it all.

You haven't even heard my coverage of the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophetic events, so how would you even know what interpretation I have?

It's obvious you just want to argue, and you're not really here to learn.

SongOnTheWind · May 24, 2021

orbiter said:
Peace.

Thank you both for the friendly input!

The premonition …so-to-speak …that we shall have shall be within us when it comes to knowing the presence of the Lord. We shall know with surety it is Him speaking within our very own hearts and we shall know to depart the congregations of unbelievers in this coming time.

We shall know it is the Son within our own hearts when He comes to speak to us.

It is the “sign” of the Son of man in those who be focusing on those things (peace, love, joy, kindness, etc) in heaven.

This “sign” shall be in “heaven”….in those who are earthly citizens of heaven as they focus on those things above in this terra firma.

Those who are “earthly” minded will “mourn” what they hear Him saying as they will not be focusing on love, joy, peace, patience, etc.

We have a contrast here: those who dwell upon the things in heaven and those who dwell on earthly things.

Matthew 24:30 KJV
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The sign of the Son of man shall “appear”…that is, SHINE.

Our very own, once-darkened hearts shall begin to shine as the “light” dawns within us when we hear His voice interpreting the Scripture of Truth.

|

The many false prophets (and the many false Christs that they are preaching) do not have this effect upon our hearts when they preach their brand of “another Jesus” to us in their earthly, private interpretations of the Bible.

They have to rely upon “signs and wonders” to deceive us.

They use their performance of outward, GREAT signs (such as the BIG one: literal water baptism) to deceive us. Literal water baptism is a BIG SIGN that they use to even cause the very elect to waver ….to be possibly deceived by them. Who does not waver over literal water baptism which is being used by false prophets to deceive those who literally see the performance of the outward sign of water baptism?

|

Their “great swelling words” are the “wonders” that they use….having men’s persons in “admiration” (wonders…admiration) because of advantage.

They do this to take advantage of the sheep that they are leading astray. The sheep are not being fed with the Word of Truth and are perishing from this earth without the life of Jesus being made manifest in their outward mortal flesh.

Jude 1:16 KJV
(16) These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

They are spiritual “Amalekites”…..which means the “people who lick”.

They come with the flattering tongues to deceive us. They lick us so-to-speak with flattery….dogs. Beware of dogs….the flattery of false prophets.

|

The false prophets have come to remove the keeping of His daily sacrifice (the dying of our Lord Jesus in our mortal bodies) from our earthly lives so that His eternal life never is made manifest in this earth.

The eternal life of Jesus is to be made manifest (outward shining in this dark world) in our mortal bodies in the here-and-now. But this message is not being preached by false prophets. We do not hear this in any church of earthly-thinking men.

|

The presence of the false prophets among us now and is in accordance with the working of Satan in order to deceive those who do not love… do… the truth. They come with all power and signs and lying wonders. We have been in tribulation brought on by them.

2 Thessalonians 2: KJV
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

|

And like Enoch, we shall not then see death but shall be transferred over in due time after the kingdoms of this world become His.

Hebrews 11:5 KJV
(5) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch walked with God and “he was not”. He was not found. His mortal body did not die. Enoch lived to the “vanishing point” in this earth and did not see death as he was transferred over. He was no longer here. This is the kind of “rapture” I hope to see….one without death.

Genesis 5:24 KJV
(24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

To live “forever” is to live to the “vanishing point” where God shall transfer us over. Hebrew for “forever” is “olam” which means “to the vanishing point”.

Genesis 3:22 KJV
(22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Hi there, orbiter

Your post has so many interesting things in it, I do hope that you would be able to expound more on it, especially the parts I have selected above. Much of it I agree with, and there is a witness in my spirit with it, but there are some parts I need more clarification on, if you wouldn't mind.

Can you explain a bit more how water baptism is a deceptive sign? I have never heard of it being one before.

I do agree, as the scripture points out that there are false prophets out there, who use cunning words and signs to deceive. They are concerned with their own glory and reputation, and not God's Word or truth.

Another point I was most intrigued by was that Amalekites means people who lick. I looked it up for myself to confirm, and there are scholars out there who affirm this meaning. It's something else I have never heard of before, but I would be inclined to agree, based on the scriptures you've provided.

Lastly, I love how you see the rapture happening, and I have often wondered about the connection with Enoch myself, as well as Elijah taken up in a fiery chariot by a whirlwind. Remember that God spoke to Job out of the whirlwind. We shall be caught up in the air. I'm getting chills just thinking about it!

I also wonder if these false prophets are more connected to THE false prophet as described in revelation. Is he just the epitome of falsity or rather a culmination?

All in all, there is no argument against the fact that we need to come out from among them. The harvest is ready, we need to get into that storehouse!

Be blessed, orbiter, I hope to see a reply soon, if you can

SongOnTheWind · May 24, 2021

Davy said:
You haven't even heard my coverage of the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophetic events, so how would you even know what interpretation I have?

It's obvious you just want to argue, and you're not really here to learn.

Learn? From you? I never asked you to be my teacher. I'm moving on now, so don't feel you have to respond to me. Don't take it personally, I'm just done. Later

orbiter · May 30, 2021

Peace.

SongOnTheWind….thank you for reading and considering! Much appreciated.

I will try to expound on those things better.

Let me start first with water baptism as this is a big topic for most Christians. Sorry for being long-winded about it.

Literal water baptism is a BIG,BIG outward sign being performed by the many false prophets today. It is such a big outward sign that most people receive without questioning it.

It is being performed by false prophets before our very literal eyes in order to fascinate (bewitch) and deceive us into believing that their “Jesus” (another Jesus) that they are preaching is THE Christ so that we come and join along with them.

They use literal water baptism as a means to bring you into bondage….into the bondage of the keeping of the doctrines and carnal commandments of men.

The first century Jews were literally baptized with water for the opposite: dying to the external regulations of the law through literal water baptism in order to live to God. Remember how Moses did not cross the Jordan.

This was the “gospel of the circumcision” preached specifically to the first century Jews who were still under the Law (the temple was still standing at that time).

The false prophet’s preaching of his “another Jesus” to us is the antichrist….the instead-of Christ…..instead of the true Christ.

Their preaching of their “jesus” is from the spirit of the antichrist to lead many away from the true Christ who is the Truth, the Way and the Life and into the bondage of keeping man’s commandments where all are perishing by the using of them.

Matthew 24:23-26 KJV
(23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Literal water baptism is a topic that most Christians adore and revere and can easily be used by false prophets to deceive even the very elect if possible into following after them (the false prophets) and their preaching of “another Jesus” who is NOT the Christ. It is a touchy topic with most...one that shouldn't be challenged in the minds of most.

(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(25) Behold, I have told you before.

The false prophets use literal water baptism in the “desert” of words that they are preaching.

Their preaching is a “desert” of words without true spiritual meaning as they preach in their earthly wisdom and perform their literal water baptism. Their preaching of the Word does not contain much true meaning as they handle the Word of God deceptively in order to get gain…taking advantage of those who follow them. They can not understand the Scriptures as a result.

Their preaching does not have the effect upon the heart that the true Son of God has and so they must use visible means as well as great swelling words of emptiness to deceive us.

They use a “picture” of Christ’s death and resurrection as portrayed by their performance of the BIG outward sign: literal water baptism. They show GREAT (big) signs.

Their reasoning: Literal water baptism = an outward sign of supposed inward realities (“behold”, He is now in the inner chambers of the heart). We have all heard this: baptism is an outward sign of an “inward reality” (behold, He is in the inner chambers). Literal water baptism is a SIGN…and a BIG sign at that.

(26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Do not go forth into the “desert” where they are water baptizing as we will not find the Christ among them as John the Baptist made clear who confessed that his baptizing with water was not of the Christ. John openly confessed that he was not the Christ… “I am not the Christ”.

But false prophets are literally water baptizing and saying just the opposite: “here is the Christ”. They are using this big sign to convince many that their preaching of "Jesus" is the true Christ.

John 1:24-27 KJV
(24) And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
(25) And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

The true Christ will baptize us with the Holy Spirit and is preferred over literal water baptism.

(26) John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
(27) He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John truly baptized with water but the true Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.

All who are literally baptizing with water now are not the Christ. He is not among them in their words. They are not preaching His words nor are they His servants. They are false prophets….false apostles (apostle means “sent”). They say they are sent by Him but come in their own names instead.

Acts 1:5 KJV
(5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The Lord contrasts the false prophets’ preaching of the false “Christ” with His true presence….when He speaks to us. There is a huge difference.

His presence (“coming”) is much more of a personal “aha” moment as His presence (as He speaks) is much more obvious to us within our very own hearts.

The lightning shoots forth in the darkness of our very own hearts as the morning “dawns” there as we hear His voice speaking to us.

We shall know that this is His Son whom we are to hear by the “day star” that arises within our own hearts. The “bright and morning star” is obvious in the heart of each listener of the true words of Christ when He comes to expound the Scriptures to our hearing ears. We shall know it is the true Christ as opposed to false prophets and their preaching of false Christs.

False prophets instead must rely upon their performance of outward signs and gifted swelling words…. nonsensical speaking as their words really contain no meaning.

Matthew 24:27 KJV
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Now one might question: “what about Peter baptizing the first gentiles (Cornelius)”? Isn’t literal water baptism a commandment?

The Holy Spirit was given to the gentiles after they heard the Word and believed it. yet Peter commands them to be literally baptized with water AFTER they had believed and received the Spirit.

Are we made perfect (complete) by the flesh (the carnal commandment of water baptism of the mortal flesh) AFTER we have heard the Word and believe it and having been cleansed with the Holy Spirit from above?

What God has cleansed, we are not to call unclean.

Paul points out this is not necessary to the Galatians: (Galatians 3:2-3 KJV(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Acts 10:44-48 KJV
(44) While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

They of the “circumcision” were there with Peter witnessing the Holy Spirit being given to the gentiles. Peter had feared those of the circumcision in the beginning…feeling pressure to water baptize them as the circumcision were commanded to do .

(45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Having begun in the Spirit…..as the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and company AFTER they heard and believed…are they now made “perfect” (complete) by the flesh afterwards? Are they now made complete with literal water baptism?

What God has cleansed in the giving of His Holy Spirit, man must not call unclean by having them go get literally water baptized afterwards.

(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

What God has cleansed (by the giving of the Holy Spirit to us), we are not to call “common” or unclean.

One must not go now and call those who are baptized with the Spirit as “unclean” and make them go get literally baptized in water in order to be made “perfect” by the washing of the flesh.

Acts 10:15 KJV
(15) And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Paul got upset with Peter over this as shown in Galatians : “why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”

There were 2 gospels being preached at the time: (Galatians 2:7 KJV (7) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter).

The gospel of the circumcision involved the first century Jews who were literally water baptized (symbolically dying to the external regulations of the law) and THEN received the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 KJV Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost).

Paul uses the term “circumcised” throughout the book of Galatians in much the same way we use “google” as a term to search the internet.

To be “circumcised” in Galatians is being used as a term to obey the “gospel of the circumcision”...go get literally water baptized which was only meant for the first century Jews (by nature)and not the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:11-21 KJV
(11) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
(12) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
(13) And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Paul opposed Peter in this commanding of the gentiles to “live as do the Gentiles” by having them literally water baptized after the receiving of the Spirit from Heaven.

(14) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
(15) We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

False prophets are using literal water baptism (preaching “another gospel”) to bring people back into bondage. The first century Jews were literally water baptized….through the law, they died to the law in order to live to God without external regulations of the law.

(18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
(19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
(20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The false prophets “bewitch” …fascinate our literal eyes….with literal water baptism.

They portray a picture in front of us with their performance of a literal representation of Him being crucified through the picture of water baptism.

We do not need to see “signs” as we have the apostle’s words in the Bible tell us that He was crucified for our sins and that should be enough for believers of the Word.

Having begun in the Spirit are we now made complete by going to get literally baptized by water as being performed by the many false prophets?

Galatians 3:1-3 KJV
(1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I was pressured when I was younger to get literally water baptized and so was literally baptized. They “zealously” affect you into doing this. They exclude you from their church membership if you don’t get literally baptized with water.

Galatians 4:16-18 KJV
(16) Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
(17) They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
(18) But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.

Again, Paul uses the term “circumcised” in Galatians as a way of saying we go and obey the preaching of another gospel as preached by false prophets today who say we have to go get water baptized…AFTER we have received the Spirit.

They use the performance of this big sign in order to get us entangled into the yoke of bondage….the keeping of man’s commandments and doctrines.

Galatians 5:1-2 KJV
(1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
(2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Paul calls such people who preach another gospel not meant for the gentiles as “false brothers” who want us to go get water baptized so that we may be brought under their bondage of the keeping of the their church commandments.

Galatians 2:4 KJV
(4) And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

They constrain you to be “circumcised”…that is, to receive the gospel of the circumcision (to be water baptized). they glory in the show of water baptism.

Galatians 6:12-13 KJV
(12) As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

They desired to have you literally water baptized so that they may glory in your flesh.

(13) For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Paul even equates circumcision with baptism….but both here are not literal.

Colossians 2:10-12 KJV
(10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

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