Marriage after Divorce - Church and State particulars

truefiction1 · May 15, 2021

I know an Orthodox person who was married to another Orthodox and divorced, then married again to another Orthodox and divorced. Both of the previous spouses passed away, and now this same person who is twice divorced and widowed is marrying a 3rd time to another recently Chrismated Orthodox. Is this 3rd marriage considered "marriage", or something other. The reason I'm asking is that I'm a bit confused by the fact that this person is to be married in the Church without a marriage license on account of some financial hardship (i.e. loss of a former spouses pension if remarried). Allegedly, the bishop and chancellor of that particular diocese have agreed to this after having investigated the legalities of their home state. Are there perhaps any Orthodox "legal eagles" in here that may have an inkling as to why/how this is okay? I've been scratching my head on this one for awhile to the point of considering calling that bishop, more from my own curiosity at this point than for any other reason. I'm just afraid I might stir up some trouble that I'd best not be stirring up.

ArmyMatt · May 15, 2021

it's a marriage. the Church permits up to three.

that being said, it's done with extreme repentance.

truefiction1 · May 15, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
it's a marriage. the Church permits up to three.

that being said, it's done with extreme repentance.

So if it's a marriage then it would require a marriage license under state law, or no?

ArmyMatt · May 16, 2021

truefiction1 said:
So if it's a marriage then it would require a marriage license under star law, or no?

I think that's for the privileges from the state that come from marriage. as far as my experience goes, Orthodoxy has you square the state side as well.

rusmeister · May 16, 2021

The problem with speaking about what is permitted is that in practice, it usually becomes license, as in licentiousness.
The problem with speaking about the Christian ideal in general is that it generally crosses us in something we want to justify ourselves in.
But a second marriage is a reality. The thing is, can we, in that second marriage, do what we ostensibly repent of on our own part from the first marriage, and do what we should have done the first time around? Or are we just doing what the world does - "I'm with you until I'm tired of you"?

truefiction1 · May 16, 2021

The following is excerpted from the State of PA General Assembly legal statutes, Title 23, Chapter 13 in the matter of Marriage License:

§ 1301. Marriage license required.

(a) General rule.--No person shall be joined in marriage in this Commonwealth until a marriage license has been obtained.

In the entire document on marriage license there are no exceptions to the general rule listed. Yet, the story I've been told by the person who is to be married next month is that the parish priest who is to officiate the "marriage" brought the case to his bishop and that both the bishop and diocesan chancellor investigated the matter within the "legal system of the courts" and have determined that the ceremony is to take place "without a marriage license".

So, does the Church provide marriage ceremonies that do not technically constitute "legal marriages", or is somebody trying to pull a fast one, in the spirit of Ananias and Sapphira (see Acts 5:1-11) in order to be married in the Church, yet "holding something back" by not getting a marriage license for the sake of retaining an ongoing monthly pension payment that would be nullified by another marriage because it was the first (deceased) husbands pension and that is the pension agency's rule... and... does the avarice stop with the person getting married, or are the clerics afflicted with and being ruled by it as well, and creating rational narratives to justify decisions that are by nature sinful and corrupt? Am I suspicious of such things only because I also struggle with what is perhaps too great a dependency on money? Or are my suspicions possibly correct? It would sure help me to at least hear what factors, if any, led the bishop and chancellor to decide that going this unusual route is justified. But, there's a delicate situation that I won't describe here that gives me cause not to want to contact this person's bishop to ask for an explanation. This matter has been creating some difficulties in my household on account of our relationship to the person allegedly getting married.

Bare in mind, the people who are scheduled to be married are about 80 years old. The man has money whereas the woman has become dependent on being beneficiary of her first husbands pension that she became eligible to collect when her second husband divorced her. If she remarried she legally loses the benefit of receiving those pension payments and has no other individual means to support herself. It seems that, as a married couple, they would have sufficient financial means to live out their lives because of his savings and retirement benefits, so that her pension would not be necessary, and that she really feels she "needs" to keep collecting the pension so that they can live more freely and comfortably; able to come and go (travel and visit) as they desire and find enjoyable. Is what they are about to do dishonest? Is it a thing that belongs within the Communion of the Holy Church? Does it square with the Gospel or will this practice be conducted in accordance with the "traditions of men" who are more concerned with monetary means by which to preserve the "institution" than with obeying the will of the God who advises "deny yourself... and take up your own cross"? How much, can we suppose, is the "prelest" factor playing into these developments and decisions? I wonder... and I'm a bit dismayed.

ArmyMatt · May 16, 2021

marriage is a sacrament and therefore given for salvation, so it's kinda independent in a sense from the state. Church marriages are legal, but you do need to go to a courthouse for the marriage license for the legal privileges that come with marriage.

rusmeister · May 16, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
marriage is a sacrament and therefore given for salvation, so it's kinda independent in a sense from the state. Church marriages are legal, but you do need to go to a courthouse for the marriage license for the legal privileges that come with marriage.

Agreed, though I would say the same thing without "kinda/in a sense". Church marriages are normally legal, though legality just means that "the state approves", which is by no means a reliable indicator of the morality of a thing, or whether Christians are required to adhere to the legality of a given issue or are forbidden the illegal. Many states have had immoral laws, including the United States, things that were legal, but immoral. And sometimes law mandates the immoral and forbids the moral. So we try to go along with the state wherever possible, when it doesn't cross our Faith. As to marriage, in the situation you describe, couples ought to adhere to the law because nothing challenges or denies our teachings or seeks to persecute us. But there have been times and places, and I can imagine a near future, where that would not be the case.

ArmyMatt · May 17, 2021

rusmeister said:
Agreed, though I would say the same thing without "kinda/in a sense". Church marriages are normally legal, though legality just means that "the state approves", which is by no means a reliable indicator of the morality of a thing, or whether Christians are required to adhere to the legality of a given issue or are forbidden the illegal. Many states have had immoral laws, including the United States, things that were legal, but immoral. And sometimes law mandates the immoral and forbids the moral. So we try to go along with the state wherever possible, when it doesn't cross our Faith. As to marriage, in the situation you describe, couples ought to adhere to the law because nothing challenges or denies our teachings or seeks to persecute us. But there have been times and places, and I can imagine a near future, where that would not be the case.

I only meant it as marriage is seen by the Church now. an Orthodox marriage is legit even if the state says no for whatever reason.

truefiction1 · May 17, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
marriage is a sacrament and therefore given for salvation, so it's kinda independent in a sense from the state. Church marriages are legal, but you do need to go to a courthouse for the marriage license for the legal privileges that come with marriage.

I didn't realize that marriages that are not first marriages were considered sacramental in the Orthodox Church. My training had led me to conclude that only first marriages constitute Holy Matrimony while others are regarded as unions that exist with the acknowledgment and blessing of the Church.

The problem I have with your explanation, though greatly appreciated, is that the states own legal statutes requires that anyone wishing to be married first gets a marriage license. Thus, it appears that in this case the person is choosing to break a fair civil law, and this choice, it would appear, is being sanctioned by the Church. Neither this person nor the Church, however, is justified in doing so on account of the precepts put forth in the Gospel (see Roman 13), unless this is officially approved by state authorization. Did our whole synodal body of hierarchs, in their encyclical, not just cite this very same Gospel edict as justification for actively preventing over 90% of Orthodox believers in the Western hemisphere from being Communicants, as directed by civil authorities, even though being a Communicant is a direct command of the Incarnate Word of God to all His sheep? Do Orthodox believers obey the Word of God when it's to our benefit in this world, but not when it isn't? If so, is our deep and true repentance is merrited? I wonder.

ArmyMatt · May 17, 2021

truefiction1 said:
I didn't realize that marriages that are not first marriages were considered sacramental in the Orthodox Church. My training had led me to conclude that only first marriages constitute Holy Matrimony while others are regarded as unions that exist with the acknowledgment and blessing of the Church.

The problem I have with your explanation, though greatly appreciated, is that the states own legal statutes requires that anyone wishing to be married first gets a marriage license. Thus, it appears that in this case the person is choosing to break a fair civil law, and this choice, it would appear, is being sanctioned by the Church. Neither this person nor the Church, however, is justified in doing so on account of the precepts put forth in the Gospel (see Roman 13), unless this is officially approved by state authorization. Did our whole synodal body of hierarchs, in their encyclical, not just cite this very same Gospel edict as justification for actively preventing over 90% of Orthodox believers in the Western hemisphere from being Communicants, as directed by civil authorities, even though being a Communicant is a direct command of the Incarnate Word of God to all His sheep? Do Orthodox believers obey the Word of God when it's to our benefit in this world, but not when it isn't? If so, is our deep and true repentance is merrited? I wonder.

well, the state legal side is just to gain the privileges that come with marriage. so according to the state you wouldn't be your wife's next of kin, but according to the Church you're married.

buzuxi02 · May 17, 2021

Canonically he can remarry. But there are other canonical limitations. Here is an OCA encyclical which covers remarriage:

... While tolerating a second marriage and in certain cases a third, the Church completely forbids a fourth marital union.
Orthodox practice on this point is governed by the “Tome of Union” of the Council of Constantinople in 920 A. D., which altogether rejects fourth marriage and permits third marriage, with a heavy penance, only to those under 40 years of age, unless they have no children from their preceding marriages....
Holy Synod - Encyclicals - On Marriage

truefiction1 · May 17, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
well, the state legal side is just to gain the privileges that come with marriage. so according to the state you wouldn't be your wife's next of kin, but according to the Church you're married.

Well, I've carefully read through the state's official statute publication and it seems clear that the marriage license is not required merely for gaining priveledges that come with marriage. It's primary purpose is to assure the Commonwealth that all important laws relating to new marriages are being complied with. Thus, it is legally required to obtain one prior to any religious marriage ceremony being carried out by any ordained minister officiating one. Thus, a universal civil law is being broken if this ceremony takes place without the legally required permission of the governing authorities, unless, however, permission has been granted by the governing body for the license requirement to be waved in this case. I suspect this has not actually happened. I'll be greatly relieved if I discover something otherwise. About the only jusifiable reason the Church would do any such thing is if the state forbid Christians to be married, in which case the state would be usurping the authority that belongs to God alone.

ArmyMatt · May 17, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Well, I've carefully read through the state's official statute publication and it seems clear that the marriage license is not required merely for gaining priveledges that come with marriage. It's primary purpose is to assure the Commonwealth that all important laws relating to new marriages are being complied with. Thus, it is legally required to obtain one prior to any religious marriage ceremony being carried out by any ordained minister officiating one. Thus, a universal civil law is being broken if this ceremony takes place without the legally required permission of the governing authorities, unless, however, permission has been granted by the governing body for the license requirement to be waved in this case. I suspect this has not actually happened. I'll be greatly relieved if I discover something otherwise. About the only jusifiable reason the Church would do any such thing is if the state forbid Christians to be married, in which case the state would be usurping the authority that belongs to God alone.

what would those laws be?

buzuxi02 · May 17, 2021

There's a separation of Church and State so I wouldn't put too much on civil compliance, they could just move in with each other and all would be fine on the legal end.
My main concern would be the age and family situation of this person getting married and whether it's wise to permit him a third marriage.

buzuxi02 · May 17, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Bare in mind, the people who are scheduled to be married are about 80 years old.

Huh???
There is no marriage service for elderly in the Orthodox church. Once you hit a certain age you are expected to seek out the Lord not your personal urges, hence older widows were put on the rolls. St. Paul and the Fathers' speak about this. No service even exists for people past the age of procreation to couple up.
Is this some sort of 30 second prayer to bless their cohabitation or an actual wedding sacrament ( not that I would call it a mystery) ? The Orthodox marriage service are full of fertility prayers. You cut out the dance of Isaiah and much of everything else? Cut out half of the begining and middle such as these petitions:

...That there may be given unto them soberness of life, and fruit of the womb as may be most expedient for them; let us pray to the Lord.

That they may rejoice in the beholding of sons and daughters; let us pray to the Lord.

That there may be granted unto them the happiness of abundant fertility, and a course of life blameless and unashamed; let us pray to the Lord...

You aren't left with much except for a mockery of a wedding.

truefiction1 · May 17, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
what would those laws be?

Laws against getting married to someone if you're already married to someone else, laws against marrying close relatives, laws for mandatory blood testing, and laws that require proof of marriage candidate identities, to name most of the usual ones.

truefiction1 · May 17, 2021

buzuxi02 said:
Huh???
There is no marriage service for elderly in the Orthodox church. Once you hit a certain age you are expected to seek out the Lord not your personal urges, hence older widows were put on the rolls. St. Paul and the Fathers' speak about this. No service even exists for people past the age of procreation to couple up.
Is this some sort of 30 second prayer to bless their cohabitation or an actual wedding sacrament ( not that I would call it a mystery) ? The Orthodox marriage service are full of fertility prayers. You cut out the dance of Isaiah and much of everything else? Cut out half of the begining and middle such as these petitions:

...That there may be given unto them soberness of life, and fruit of the womb as may be most expedient for them; let us pray to the Lord.

That they may rejoice in the beholding of sons and daughters; let us pray to the Lord.

That there may be granted unto them the happiness of abundant fertility, and a course of life blameless and unashamed; let us pray to the Lord...

You aren't left with much except for a mockery of a wedding.

I don't know.

truefiction1 · May 17, 2021

Like I said, I'v been very confused about things.

Fr. Matt, are you aware of any cohabitation ceremonies for elderly couples that are done in the OCA? Last year I read a story about a certain saint matching up an elderly pair because it had been revealed to him by God that this was his will for those two. Seraphim of Vyritsa perhaps? I don't recall who it was.

ArmyMatt · May 17, 2021

truefiction1 said:
Laws against getting married to someone if you're already married to someone else, laws against marrying close relatives, laws for mandatory blood testing, and laws that require proof of marriage candidate identities, to name most of the usual ones.

none of those affect the sacrament. and the Church agrees with a lot of them regardless of what the state says.

Marriage after Divorce - Church and State particulars

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