Help with Romans 9:1-5

Carl Emerson said:

Well, to me it is more about blood than belief or practice.

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Well thats why I asked, Paul spoke about being an Israelite who was a Jew and also of the tribe (or lineagae) of Benjimin right? So there are all Isrealites of the same tribes and all Jews? Or are the children of Israel made of various tribes and not all Jews? I mean it cannot pertain to blood if Paul was of the tribe of Benjimin and was a Jew so wouldnt it pertain to a teaching Judiasm?

How do we separate what is what.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes - so it is just a matter of when not if...

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Doesn't Paul say "if"?

Do we know something he didn't know?

Guojing said:

If you are correct, then that means for us, if we don't feed/clothe/bless the Jews, then we will be thrown in the lake of fire after our deaths (Matthew 25:41-46).

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Or the error is to assume that "the least of these, My brethren", only refers to Jews.
The poor, the oppressed, the widow, the orphan have always been the Lord's special people.
Isaiah 3:
13 The Lord stands up to plead,
And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord will enter into judgment
With the elders of His people
And His princes: For you have eaten up the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the faces of the poor?
Says the Lord God of hosts.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

Carl Emerson said:

Abraham was not only the Father of all who have faith (a spiritual father) but also the one who spawned the Jewish race with the 12 tribes. There began the Jewish blood line.

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So the children of the flesh are counted as Abrahams seed

Minister Monardo said:

Or the error is to assume that "the least of these, My brethren", only refers to Jews.
The poor, the oppressed, the widow, the orphan have always been the Lord's special people.
Isaiah 3:
13 The Lord stands up to plead,
And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord will enter into judgment
With the elders of His people
And His princes: For you have eaten up the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the faces of the poor?
Says the Lord God of hosts.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

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First, you have to understand that Jews refer to fellow Jews as brethren.

Peter did the same in Acts 3:17. 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

Paul did the same in Romans 9:3.

Thus, in context, since Jesus stated clearly to all of us that his first coming was only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24), and he also referred to gentiles as dogs (Mark 7:27), the term brethren in Matthew 25:40 must therefore, in context, meant Jews only. He cannot be referring to gentiles.

Jewish is counted as a bloodline, from Judah (blood) to be a Jew? Since Paul was of the tribe of Benjimin and was a Jew (although not from the tribe of Judah)

Like how does this work?

Guojing said:

the term brethren in Matthew 25:40 must therefore, in context, meant Jews only. He cannot be referring to gentiles.

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The context for Matthew 25 is the end of the age. We will see who He refers to as His brethren then.
Thanks for sharing.

Guojing said:

If you are correct, then that means for us, if we don't feed/clothe/bless the Jews, then we will be thrown in the lake of fire after our deaths (Matthew 25:41-46).

This means you also believe that salvation is not by grace thru faith alone in the cross. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

As I said to the TS, But now in Romans 11:11, he tells us that thru the fall of Israel, salvation has come to us gentiles.

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Israel is now the enemy of the gospel (Romans 11:28), for our sakes, so that God could show us mercy.

You are correct in terms of the age to come, for gentiles to be saved from the lake of fire then, it will be like in time past, they have to bless Israel to be saved.

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Hardly. . .the apostles disagree with you.

The Church is the last times and the end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).

The Church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11).

There is no temporal age to come after the Church.
The next age is eternity, in the new heavens and the new earth, the home of righteousness.

Clare73 said:

Hardly. . .the apostles disagree with you.

The Church is the last times and the end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).

The Church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11).

There is no temporal age after the Church.
The next age is eternity, in the new heavens and the new earth, the home of righteousness.

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Naturally, if you believe we are currently living in the millennium now, we would have different interpretation and understanding of scripture.

Minister Monardo said:

The context for Matthew 25 is the end of the age. We will see who He refers to as His brethren then.
Thanks for sharing.

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Oh, so you also believe we are currently living in the millennium now?

Carl Emerson said:

From Abraham, all who have come to faith are considered His descendants.

At the same time He had descendants of the flesh.

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Do you agree with what I said in that previous thread about the difference between Abraham's descendants between the stars of heaven and sand in the shore?

They are in line with what you are saying above.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes we have the book of Revelation which gives much more detail.

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More detail, but no contradiction of the NT. Scripture does not contradict itself.

Paul got his teaching in the third heaven from Jesus Christ personally, and it will not disagree with John's revelation.

John's revelation contains prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8), subject to more than one interpretation, but subject to no interpretation in disagreement with NT teaching, which changing Paul's writing from "if" to "when" would be.

Clare73 said:

Hardly. . .the apostles disagree with you.
The Church is the last times and the end of the ages (1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 9:26).

The Church is the fulfillment of the ages (1 Corinthians 10:11).

There is no temporal age to come after the Church.
The next age is eternity, in the new heavens and the new earth, the home of righteousness.

Click to expand...

Guojing said:

Naturally, if you believe we are currently living in the millennium now, we would have different interpretation and understanding of scripture.

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Your issue is not with me, it is with Peter and Paul.

Clare73 said:

Your issue is not with me, it is with Peter and Paul.

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But would you admit you are holding the doctrine of Amillennialism?

Guojing said:

But would you admit you are holding the doctrine of Amillennialism?

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I hold the doctrines of the NT.

What is amillennialism?