Help with Romans 9:1-5

Carl Emerson · May 15, 2021

Paul is referring to physical descendants.

Carl Emerson · May 15, 2021

Guojing said:
we are not expected to treat them any differently from others now.

It seems that Paul did..

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises...

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
It seems that Paul did..

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises...

It is understandable why he would feel that way, he is an Israelite.

But now in Romans 11:11, he tells us that thru the fall of Israel, salvation has come to us gentiles. Israel is now the enemy of the gospel (Romans 11:28), for our sakes, so that God could show us mercy.

You are correct in terms of the age to come, for gentiles to be saved from the lake of fire then, it will be like in time past, they have to bless Israel to be saved.

Rightly dividing the word of truth into time past, but now, age to come, is the key to understanding the tricky Romans 9-11.

Carl Emerson · May 15, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
Well its a little private place and she was kind enough to allow posts and consider some things, just sometimes when you drag what is in more of a private arena onto the more public floor telling more then you really need to in a forum where theres alot of nastiness you put a target on someone, and she does not deserve that.

I'll let it go now

If someone on the forum posts in a 'private place' that Jews are Anti-Christ under the guise of presenting a devotion - I think it needs to be challenged.

Carl Emerson · May 15, 2021

Guojing said:
It is understandable why he would feel that way, he is an Israelite.

But now in Romans 11:11, he tells us that thru the fall of Israel, salvation has come to us gentiles. Israel is now the enemy of the gospel (Romans 11:28), for our sakes, so that God could show us mercy.

You are correct in terms of the age to come, for gentiles to be saved from the lake of fire then, it will be like in time past, they have to bless Israel to be saved.

Rightly dividing the word of truth into time past, but now, age to come, is the key to understanding the tricky Romans 9-11.

If God has no less love for the Jews today - should we not have God's love in our hearts for them?

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
If God has no less love for the Jews today - should we not have God's love in our hearts for them?

I am saying in the but now, we should love everyone equally.

There is no difference between loving an unbelieving gentile, and an unbelieving Jew, in the eyes of God.

God has a future plan to save all of Israel, as you have also stated.

2BeholdHisGlory · May 15, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
If someone on the forum posts in a 'private place' that Jews are Anti-Christ under the guise of presenting a devotion - I think it needs to be challenged.

You know what I meant. You pulled something into this thread (here) that didn't need to be here just to throw someone who you might have disagreed with there under the bus (here more openly) but for no good reason at all.

Why not just open with "need help with this" and just leave it alone

It was in the devotional section she was kind enough to allow comments and you posted there. Its fine to disagree with people, not everyone that posts in that section posts perfectly, or believes the same as everyone else, and I think its great you started a thread on it but that was really unnecessary and did not need to be emphasized.

Theres nothing wrong with posting on what you are posting on without the jab and link towards her post

Mr. M · May 15, 2021

Guojing said:
But now, Jews are no higher status that any gentile unbelievers that we come across. So, we are not expected to treat them any differently from others now.

Did Christians that showed mercy to Jews under Nazi persecution take an unnecessary risk?

2BeholdHisGlory · May 15, 2021

What is Jew?

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Did Christians that showed mercy to Jews under Nazi persecution take an unnecessary risk?

That depends on, whether they are thinking of Matthew 25:31-46, as the motivation in deciding to do that.

What do you think?

Carl Emerson · May 15, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
You know what I meant. You pulled something into this thread (here) that didn't need to be here just to throw someone who you might have disagreed with there under the bus (here more openly) but for no good reason at all.

Why not just open with "need help with this" and just leave it alone

It was in the devotional section she was kind enough to allow comments and you posted there. Its fine to disagree with people, not everyone that posts in that section posts perfectly, or believes the same as everyone else, and I think its great you started a thread on it but that was really unnecessary and did not need to be emphasized.

Theres nothing wrong with posting on what you are posting on without the jab and link towards her post

Right - to be honest I didnt think of that - I was rather thinking that folks who joined the discussion here would benefit from the detail of the discussion that ensued there.

I have in fact been quite supportive of Sue.

Mr. M · May 15, 2021

Guojing said:
That depends on, whether they are thinking of Matthew 25:31-46, as the motivation in deciding to do that.

What do you think?

I think that in your first post you placed Matthew 25 discourse in an "age to come".
Now you are stepping back from that position to suggest that it can provide "motivation"
for Christians to understand that if someone is trying to exterminate Jews at any time in history,
they should oppose the efforts.
Could you clarify?

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
I think that in your first post you placed Matthew 25 discourse in an "age to come".
Now you are stepping back from that position to suggest that it can provide "motivation"
for Christians to understand that if someone is trying to exterminate Jews at any time in history,
they should oppose the efforts.
Could you clarify?

In the age to come, gentiles who want to be saved, must go thru Israel. That is what I stated

You then asked me a question about WW2 and why some people want to help to shelter the Jews.

I have not interacted with those people since I was born after the event, and hence I cannot tell you what motivated them to do that.

I am not stepping back from my 1st statement.

Mr. M · May 15, 2021

Guojing said:
In the age to come, gentiles who want to be saved, must go thru Israel.

What is this age you are referencing? The tribulation?

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
What is this age you are referencing? The tribulation?

Yes, Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 is about Daniel's 70th week and the 2nd coming of Christ for Israel after that week (Matthew 24:15).

Carl Emerson · May 15, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
What is Jew?

This is a good question - They themselves take the blood line through mothers not fathers as with all the hatred and wickedness that they have been subjected to, they cant always be sure who the father is.

Given that Judaism is light years away from what God intended, we cant define Jew from God's perspective as adherents of their contemporary religion.

Then there is the issue of Jews changing their names and merging into foreign societies.
Some became adherents of churches to avoid discrimination.

The majority of Jews by blood in Israel today are secular and atheistic.

I think many in the world today have Jewish blood without being aware of it.

At the end of the day only God knows I guess...

Mr. M · May 15, 2021

Guojing said:
Yes, Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 is about Daniel's 70th week and the 2nd coming of Christ for Israel after that week (Matthew 24:15).

Matthew 25:
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison
and you came to Me.

This has been the Lord's priority in every age.
Isaiah 58:
6 Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens,
To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh?
8 Then your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, Here I am.
If you take away the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10 If you extend your soul to the hungry
And satisfy the afflicted soul,
Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,
And your darkness shall be as the noonday.

Clare73 · May 15, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now I believe this passage deserves careful consideration.

Paul is showing great fondness and respect for those whom he refers to as 'kin'.

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Now this was stated in the New Covenant period by Apostle Paul.

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises...

Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today.

Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void.

Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ...

Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...."

Is this promise void?

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?

Paul certainly did not express this.

Does Paul not state that the destiny of Israel is to be grafted back into the one olive tree, which is now the NT Church going all the way back to Abraham, if they do not persist in unbelief?

2BeholdHisGlory · May 15, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
This is a good question - They themselves take the blood line through mothers not fathers as with all the hatred and wickedness that they have been subjected to, they cant always be sure who the father is.

Given that Judaism is light years away from what God intended, we cant define Jew from God's perspective as adherents of their contemporary religion.

Then there is the issue of Jews changing their names and merging into foreign societies.
Some became adherents of churches to avoid discrimination.

The majority of Jews by blood in Israel today are secular and atheistic.

I think many in the world today have Jewish blood without being aware of it.

At the end of the day only God knows I guess...

How does the levitical priesthood play into the Jew or Judah like how does that all work since Moses said nothing concerning the priesthood concerning Judah. Like how do you separate these things?

Guojing · May 15, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Matthew 25:
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison
and you came to Me.

This has been the Lord's priority in every age.
Isaiah 58:
6 Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens,
To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh?
8 Then your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, Here I am.
If you take away the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10 If you extend your soul to the hungry
And satisfy the afflicted soul,
Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,
And your darkness shall be as the noonday.

If you are correct, then that means for us, if we don't feed/clothe/bless the Jews, then we will be thrown in the lake of fire after our deaths (Matthew 25:41-46).

This means you also believe that salvation is not by grace thru faith alone in the cross. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

As I said to the TS, But now in Romans 11:11, he tells us that thru the fall of Israel, salvation has come to us gentiles. Israel is now the enemy of the gospel (Romans 11:28), for our sakes, so that God could show us mercy.

You are correct in terms of the age to come, for gentiles to be saved from the lake of fire then, it will be like in time past, they have to bless Israel to be saved.

Rightly dividing the word of truth into time past, but now, age to come, is the key to understanding the tricky Romans 9-11.

Help with Romans 9:1-5

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