Why do people believe in evolution?

trophy33

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The sacrifice of Christ was, in an important sense, voluntary.
I would not say voluntary, I would rather say "in submission". He asked the Father to change it, if possible.
Also, many useful processes are not voluntary, like for example in army.

Utilitarianism can work in certain limited contexts, but the utilitarian calculus is a problem - if your goal is the greatest happiness
I do not know if the goal can be defined just as happiness. For example, with more knowledge, more worries come. But we prefer the knowledge as "a greater good" than "just happiness".

(thriving, wellbeing, etc) of the greatest number, then you can, in principle, justify the horrific treatment of a few (or more than a few) for the benefit of the many, e.g. slavery. Now, if you want to modify the calculus to reduce inequalities, you might end up with everyone equally miserable - which is not the greatest happiness of the greatest number. These are exaggerated examples, but you see the problem.

The other aspect is the definition and judgement of the 'greater good' - for example, this has been associated with tyrants who persuade their people to do horrors in the name of what they claim is the greater good. It is also the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma ("Does God command what is good, or is it good because God commands it?"). IOW, is God just the messenger for some objective morality, or is God the source of morality? If the first is the case, God is not the arbiter of morality; if the second is the case (as in our problem of evil situation), the 'greater good' is arbitrary, dependent on God's command or whim.

Now, you may say that God is, by definition, good, therefore what God commands must be good. But this is the problem of the tyrant - if we cede judgement of the good, we must accept whatever we're told is good, whether it conflicts with our sense of natural justice or not; we have abrogated the responsibility to judge - so, God Works In Mysterious Ways, who are we to judge? IOW we exchange our natural or innate concept of 'good' for the command of the unknowable and ineffable. We effectively lose our knowledge of the good; when "what God commands " equates to "good", then by substitution we get, "what God commands is what God commands"... the 'good' is lost. You can see the implications in the case of an evil God.

Finally, there is the problem of provenance and interpretation. Who speaks for God? Who interprets God's word? IOW to whom do we abrogate our judgement of right and wrong, and why?

Too many points, can you pick just one so that I can think about it properly?
 
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Larniavc

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For example, without breaking your leg, you would not lay in your bed, having time to read and to learn something that will greatly enrich your next years.
You could do that without breaking your leg. Which shows breaking your leg is not necessary.
 
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trophy33

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You could do that without breaking your leg. Which shows breaking your leg is not necessary.
Thats why most of people do not break their legs. But we are all individuals with individual paths. For some, it is necessary.
 
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Larniavc

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Thats why most of people do not break their legs. But we are all individuals with individual paths. For some, it is necessary.
But it’s not, though. Anything that can be achieved in bed with a broken leg can be achieved in bed without a broken leg.

The leg being broken in this analogy is (like evil) unnecessary.
 
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trophy33

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But it’s not, though. Anything that can be achieved in bed with a broken leg can be achieved in bed without a broken leg.

The leg being broken in this analogy is (like evil) unnecessary.
It may be, that somebody will lay in bed and read only with a broken leg. Or its the least possible evil to get him do that.
 
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AV1611VET

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I'll give you two, Adam and Eve.
Since Luke traces Jesus' genealogy back to Adam, and you say Adam was "fictional," are you saying Jesus is fictional?
 
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Gene Parmesan

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Since Luke traces Jesus' genealogy back to Adam, and you say Adam was "fictional," are you saying Jesus is fictional?
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renniks

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More people believe in evolution as time goes by. Is it because they have studied it and understand it, or is it because so many others believe it so they might as well too?
It's so that they can act smug and laugh at people who don't.
:)
 
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trophy33

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Since Luke traces Jesus' genealogy back to Adam, and you say Adam was "fictional," are you saying Jesus is fictional?
I have a question again.

Imagine you are Luke, the companion of Paul, writing about Jesus who lived 20 years ago in Israel.

You try to look for as many information as possible (while you are on your travels) and you work with some genealogies you found, somewhere. You put them into your gospel, because you have no better source than them. Are they made perfect and literal just because you put them there?

Jesus is obviously literal, because He lived in your generation and you are constantly meeting people who met Him. But the other side of genealogies is so old that names there can be mythological, wrong or telescoped without any problem. Both ends are not in your hand to be verified on the same level.
 
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AV1611VET

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Jesus is obviously literal, because He lived in your generation and you are constantly meeting people who met Him. But the other side of genealogies is so old that names there can be mythological, wrong or telescoped without any problem. Both ends are not in your hand to be verified on the same level.
And these people went to their death for what they wrote.

If it was purposefully mythed, like some here like to do, why didn't they say, "Wait! Don't burn me! I just made that story up!"
 
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trophy33

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And these people went to their death for what they wrote.

If it was purposefully mythed, like some here like to do, why didn't they say, "Wait! Don't burn me! I just made that story up!"
Nobody died for genealogies. What are you talking about?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Yes, but thats why its on God, who knows every detail and every outcome, to decide. Not on us.
I was simply posing a counterpoint to your 'look on the bright side' view.

Whether you call it random chance or deterministic inevitability or God's decision, our experience of it is the same.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I would not say voluntary, I would rather say "in submission". He asked the Father to change it, if possible.
There's an ambiguity there - it wasn't an accidental sacrifice to save mankind, although the man may have been reluctant. Oddly, it reminds me of Spock in Star Trek, where they spiced up the interest by occasionally playing his suppressed emotional human side off against his implacably logical Vulcan side (although Kirk was the usual counterpoint) ;)

I do not know if the goal can be defined just as happiness. For example, with more knowledge, more worries come. But we prefer the knowledge as "a greater good" than "just happiness".
It doesn't really matter exactly what the goal is - just that it is defined as the most desirable.

Too many points, can you pick just one so that I can think about it properly?
The post isn't going away any time soon (I hope!); you can pick any point you like, or consider them all at leisure.
 
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trophy33

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I was simply posing a counterpoint to your 'look on the bright side' view.

Whether you call it random chance or deterministic inevitability or God's decision, our experience of it is the same.
I do not see how it is a counterpoint. The topic is "why a good (and all powerful etc.) God allows evil in His creation". I.e. we are looking for plausible reasons. The plausibility is the point.

"It could be done differently" is not an argument. The point is "is it possible that this is how it was the best way, considered the greate scheme of all things together?"
We are not to judge here if it really is the best way, it will depend on our trust in God and His abilities (and together with Leibniz, I judge it to be the best ab effectu).
 
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MIDutch

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Since Luke traces Jesus' genealogy back to Adam, and you say Adam was "fictional," are you saying Jesus is fictional?
I never said that.

But that doesn't mean that Luke couldn't have made up the entire genealogy just to legitimize Jesus's standing as 'the son of god' in the new religion they were creating.
 
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AV1611VET

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I never said that.

But that doesn't mean that Luke couldn't have made up the entire genealogy just to legitimize Jesus's standing as 'the son of god' in the new religion they were creating.
Right. Then died for writing it? not to mention those who died for believing it?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I do not see how it is a counterpoint. The topic is "why a good (and all powerful etc.) God allows evil in His creation". I.e. we are looking for plausible reasons. The plausibility is the point.

"It could be done differently" is not an argument. The point is "is it possible that this is how it was the best way, considered the greate scheme of all things together?"
We are not to judge here if it really is the best way, it will depend on our trust in God and His abilities (and together with Leibniz, I judge it to be the best ab effectu).
You suggested a hypothetical benefit of a disabling injury. I suggested that such benefits are not necessarily present.

It is not an argument to say that God is the judge of whether and why evil is necessary to the greater good, because the logic of a good God is what is in question. To answer "Why does an all-good God allow such evil?" with "We are not to judge, trust in God" is begging the question - it's just a reformulation of the 'God Works In Mysterious Ways' evasion which can be applied to any contradiction or puzzle about the purported actions of God. An answer that can be used for any question is not an explanation, and "Don't ask", which is what it comes down to, obviously doesn't answer the question.

Further, it doesn't address the possibility of an evil God, for which, "We are not to judge, trust in God", is clearly inadequate.
 
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