is the "Apocrypha" Scripture or Added Text?

dóxatotheó

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Apocrypha means 'hidden things' in Greek. The Apocryphical books of the Bible fall into two categories: texts which were included in some canonical version of the Bible at some point, and other texts of a Biblical nature which have never been canonical im asking you guys today is these text inspired by the Almighty God or is these writings that are added to the text of the Almighty God
proof for both positions please so if you say its not inspired prove it and if you say its inspired prove it please and thank you God bless :)
Also this is a side question why do Jews have the authority to choose wat our canon is?
 

HTacianas

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Apocrypha means 'hidden things' in Greek. The Apocryphical books of the Bible fall into two categories: texts which were included in some canonical version of the Bible at some point, and other texts of a Biblical nature which have never been canonical im asking you guys today is these text inspired by the Almighty God or is these writings that are added to the text of the Almighty God
proof for both positions please so if you say its not inspired prove it and if you say its inspired prove it please and thank you God bless :)
Also this is a side question why do Jews have the authority to choose wat our canon is?

Let's begin with the Jewish canon. The modern Jewish canon was settled only in the first century, and then only after the destruction of the temple. As a body of texts it is no older than the new testament. But hundreds of years earlier the Septuagint was gathered as a single collection so it is much older, and has always been the canon of Christianity.

Look at the time frame. Post 70 AD. All those who claimed that Jesus was not the Christ decided the Jewish canon. Now look what the new testament says about them:

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
 
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dóxatotheó

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Let's begin with the Jewish canon. The modern Jewish canon was settled only in the first century, and then only after the destruction of the temple. As a body of texts it is no older than the new testament. But hundreds of years earlier the Septuagint was gathered as a single collection so it is much older, and has always been the canon of Christianity.

Look at the time frame. Post 70 AD. All those who claimed that Jesus was not the Christ decided the Jewish canon. Now look what the new testament says about them:

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
so your beliefs on it is based on the history of the septuagint and jews denying the christ
 
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Taodeching

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Apocrypha means 'hidden things' in Greek. The Apocryphical books of the Bible fall into two categories: texts which were included in some canonical version of the Bible at some point, and other texts of a Biblical nature which have never been canonical im asking you guys today is these text inspired by the Almighty God or is these writings that are added to the text of the Almighty God
proof for both positions please so if you say its not inspired prove it and if you say its inspired prove it please and thank you God bless :)
Also this is a side question why do Jews have the authority to choose wat our canon is?

The Apocrypha books are Scripture, it was later Protestant groups that mutilated Scripture. These books have been in Catholic, Orthodox and other Bibles for ages. As for your second question they don't but some Protestant groups use what the Jewish authorities chose
 
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Michie

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i know what the deuteronical canons are in your church and what the council of trent declared for it
If you are so interested in Catholic answers why not go to the source?
 
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HTacianas

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so your beliefs on it is based on the history of the septuagint and jews denying the christ

My belief in it is based on its acceptance as the canon of Christianity. It is not up to me to decide what the bible is.
 
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Philip_B

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Apocrypha means 'hidden things' in Greek. The Apocryphical books of the Bible fall into two categories: texts which were included in some canonical version of the Bible at some point, and other texts of a Biblical nature which have never been canonical im asking you guys today is these text inspired by the Almighty God or is these writings that are added to the text of the Almighty God
proof for both positions please so if you say its not inspired prove it and if you say its inspired prove it please and thank you God bless :)
Also this is a side question why do Jews have the authority to choose wat our canon is?

I can answer as an Anglican - and I acknowledge that Anglican views on these matters are not uniform.

There are a number of writings that are described as Apocryphal which might largely be described as largely Christian writings that were not included in the Canon of the New Testament, and these texts may well give us some insight into the life of the early church, and things that some early Christians were thinking, however they are not canonical.

There are a number of writings that were part of the Septuagint (LXX) and not part of the Masoretic Canon. Today these are referred to as the deuterocanonical texts. The LXX was in wide general use in synagogues during the later Macedonian and Early Roman Period. Many, perhaps most, of these works existed in Greek and not Hebrew. Post the destruction of the Temple and the expulsion of the Christians from the synagogues, the Jewish Community tightened up the canon of the Old Testament (for them scripture) so as to ensure that Christian writings did not make there way into the canon, and this is what gives rise tot he Masoretic Canon.

In the main when the New Testament Writers and Jesus himself as recorded, where they are quoting from the old testament they are referencing the LXX. The 27 books of the New Testament received as canonical are not a matter of great debate, and were are pretty much all agreed on them.

At the time of the reformation most of the reformers opted to use the Masoretic Canon for the Old Testament, no doubt for a number of reasons, some of which may have been about things they did not like in the text.

The Thirty Nine Articles of the Anglican Church list the deuterocanonical texts and specify that they may not be used to establish doctrine. Effectively this means that they are canonical (in that they are part of scripture) but at a 2nd level , hence deutero-canonical.

The KJV when originally published included the deuterocanonical texts and they appear (less frequently) in most Anglican lectionaries.

As to your side question, The Jews do not have authority to choose our canon, and neither would they want to. None the less, we are not opposed to the Jewish community, and understand ourselves standing in the continuity of faith as children of the faith of Abraham.
 
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concretecamper

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The canon of scripture listed at Rome in 382 is the same as the canon listed at Hippo in 393 is the same as the canon listed at Carthage in 397 is the same canon as listed at Florence in 1431 in the same canon listed at Trent.
 
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dóxatotheó

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The canon of scripture listed at Rome in 382 is the same as the canon listed at Hippo in 393 is the same as the canon listed at Carthage in 397 is the same canon as listed at Florence in 1431 in the same canon listed at Trent.
thank you concrete you answered alot of my questions im very pleased
 
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dóxatotheó

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I can answer as an Anglican - and I acknowledge that Anglican views on these matters are not uniform.

There are a number of writings that are described as Apocryphal which might largely be described as largely Christian writings that were not included in the Canon of the New Testament, and these texts may well give us some insight into the life of the early church, and things that some early Christians were thinking, however they are not canonical.

There are a number of writings that were part of the Septuagint (LXX) and not part of the Masoretic Canon. Today these are referred to as the deuterocanonical texts. The LXX was in wide general use in synagogues during the later Macedonian and Early Roman Period. Many, perhaps most, of these works existed in Greek and not Hebrew. Post the destruction of the Temple and the expulsion of the Christians from the synagogues, the Jewish Community tightened up the canon of the Old Testament (for them scripture) so as to ensure that Christian writings did not make there way into the canon, and this is what gives rise tot he Masoretic Canon.

In the main when the New Testament Writers and Jesus himself as recorded, where they are quoting from the old testament they are referencing the LXX. The 27 books of the New Testament received as canonical are not a matter of great debate, and were are pretty much all agreed on them.

At the time of the reformation most of the reformers opted to use the Masoretic Canon for the Old Testament, no doubt for a number of reasons, some of which may have been about things they did not like in the text.

The Thirty Nine Articles of the Anglican Church list the deuterocanonical texts and specify that they may not be used to establish doctrine. Effectively this means that they are canonical (in that they are part of scripture) but at a 2nd level , hence deutero-canonical.

The KJV when originally published included the deuterocanonical texts and they appear (less frequently) in most Anglican lectionaries.

As to your side question, The Jews do not have authority to choose our canon, and neither would they want to. None the less, we are not opposed to the Jewish community, and understand ourselves standing in the continuity of faith as children of the faith of Abraham.
thanks for your response im happy to see the response u addressed for us
 
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chevyontheriver

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Also this is a side question why do Jews have the authority to choose what our canon is?
Why do Jews AFTER the time of Jesus have the authority to choose what our canon is?

Do you notice that they would have had some access to the New Testament when they decided their canon in the second century AD and not one book of the New Testament got included in their canon? The earlier LXX is a better canon because it isn't an actual anti-Christian canon. It is also better because it is what the NT authors used and quoted from. And that canon is what Christians have recognized all along. It was not invented at the council of Trent. It was matter of factly repeated at the council of Trent.
 
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Athanasius377

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Also this is a side question why do Jews have the authority to choose what our canon is?
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. Rom: 3:1–2 ESV

First. I take the opposite view. The Apocrypha is not canon rather it is devotional literature. You should read these books though. There are important witness of judaism in the intertestamental period. But I reject that these books are scripture for the following reasons:

1. Calling these books Deuterocanon recognizes these books are inferior.

2. The fact they were included in some editions or collections of the LXX means nothing. If so why are 3 and 4 Maccabees as well as Psalm 151 not included?

3. The contain factual errors. Judith 1:1 (ESV)
In the twelfth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, who ruled over the Assyrians in the great city of Nineveh, in the days of Arphaxad, who ruled over the Medes in Ecbatana.

4. They contain false doctrine such as sorcery in violation of Deut 18. Tobit 6:17-18 states:
17 When you enter the bridal chamber, you shall take live ashes of incense and lay upon them some of the heart and liver of the fish so as to make a smoke. 18 Then the demon will smell it and flee away and will never again return.

5. 2 Esdras itself denies that it is inspired. From 2 Esdras 14:44-48:
So during the forty days ninety-four 7 books were written. 45 And when the forty days were ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, “Make public the twenty-four 8 books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; 46 but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people. 47 For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the river of knowledge.” 48 And I did so.

The 24 books refers to one of two ways Jews counted the books of Scripture depending on what you do with Ruth and Lamentations. The other reckoning is 22 books. The 12 minor prophets are combined as one book.

Josephus writes in Against Apion 1:8.
For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another [as the Greeks have], but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine.


6. There is no evidence the Apocrypha was in the running to be accepted in the canon. The so called synod of Jamnia which supposedly closed the canon was actually an academy discussing Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon. Beckwith relates:

(a) The term ‘synod’ or ‘council’ is inappropriate. The academy at Jamnia, established by Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai shortly before the fall of Jerusalem in ad 70, was both a college and a legislative body, and the occasion in question was a session of the elders there.

(b) The date of the session may have been as early as ad 75 or as late as ad 117.

(c) As regards the disputed books, the discussion was confined to the question whether Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs (or possibly Ecclesiastes alone) make the hands unclean, i.e. are divinely inspired.


Beckwith, R. T. (1985). The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and Its Background in Early Judaism (p. 276). London: SPCK.

7. The councils cited are regional in nature and Rome did not define the canon dogmatically until Trent in 1546. Early lists of the OT by christian writes such as Melito of Sardis (2nd Century) exclude the Apocrypha. The more a Church Father new about Hebrew and Jewish Culture the less likely they accepted the Apocrypha as Scripture.

So in short, read the Apocrypha. Anglicans and Lutherans still read from the Apocrypha liturgically but we do not consider it to be Scripture.

A.
 
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public hermit

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Also this is a side question why do Jews have the authority to choose wat our canon is?

For what it's worth, the Christian OT canon was not established by religious Jews, but by Christians (think Mileto of Sardis, who also has very robust statements of the nature of Christ that agrees with, but predates, the councils). Add to that, Christians organize the OT differently to emphasis the prophesies of John the Baptist and Christ.

Melito of Sardis - Wikipedia
 
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dóxatotheó

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But why not get answers from those that use it in their Bibles? You say you want to become Catholic? Why muddy the waters?
some these forums are addressed to everyone
 
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