What Convinced you God Exists?

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
God is the one wanting a relationship with himself. A relationship based upon His faithfulness, and justice. His justices saves the good (again):

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

No. Sins are not arbitrary. God give power to leave them behind. Jesus said:

Mat 5:18-20 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen. If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. You must obey God's commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don't, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven.

The scribes followed laws but did not follow the heart of the law which was love out of a pure conscience.

Nothing here addresses what I am saying

If you adhere to John 3:16-18, or Mark 16:15-16, or others, you will still sin. You will still lie daily. Lying is sin. You might commit many other sins daily, or less, too. Sure, you may strive to sin less, but you will still sin all-the-same.

This kind of leads back to the 'joke'... Does the recipient of the lie care if the lie came from a Christian or not?

Once you affirm your worship to the correct God, it's almost like a scenario of where the instructor tells you, "this test will not be graded." Hence, the given test is arbitrary, as the instructor is not applying merit to the given test. The student could get every question wrong, but it does not matter. The test does not go into the books for a grade anyhow. As @Mark Quayle pointed out, once you 'receive Christ', you have now 'traded places'. Your future sins are auto-released from your permanent record. You are within the IN crowd now.

Once you pledge worship to Him, the rest really no longer matters. Why?

He knows you are going to sin anyways; regardless of how hard you try not to. Hence, why worry about most Commandments after you are a Christian?

Mark Quayle · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
As @Mark Quayle pointed out, once you 'receive Christ', you have now 'traded places'. Your future sins are auto-released from your permanent record. You are within the IN crowd now.

Haha now you use me for a reference??? Btw, Future and a Hope and I are at opposition to much. I would appreciate a quote, a reference, from a post where I used the very words you show there. I'm guessing MOST people who think they received Christ did not. There is no IN crowd. If a person does not continue in obedience, they do not belong to God. (No, that doesn't mean never sins again. It means never live sinfully, never continuing in sin.) Belonging to Christ does not give license to sin.

Mark Quayle · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
Nothing here addresses what I am saying

If you adhere to John 3:16-18, or Mark 16:15-16, or others, you will still sin. You will still lie daily. Lying is sin. You might commit many other sins daily, or less, too. Sure, you may strive to sin less, but you will still sin all-the-same.

This kind of leads back to the 'joke'... Does the recipient of the lie care if the lie came from a Christian or not?

Once you affirm your worship to the correct God, it's almost like a scenario of where the instructor tells you, "this test will not be graded." Hence, the given test is arbitrary, as the instructor is not applying merit to the given test. The student could get every question wrong, but it does not matter. The test does not go into the books for a grade anyhow. As @Mark Quayle pointed out, once you 'receive Christ', you have now 'traded places'. Your future sins are auto-released from your permanent record. You are within the IN crowd now.

Once you pledge worship to Him, the rest really no longer matters. Why?

He knows you are going to sin anyways; regardless of how hard you try not to. Hence, why worry about most Commandments after you are a Christian?

Believing in Christ means continuing in him. It is no license to sin. Why do you misrepresent what the Bible says?

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Your 'direct observation' lacks logical rigor. God can do whatever he wants. He wanted to make a people for himself, that are 'real' in a sense no other being --not even angels-- can be. And THIS is the only way to do it. You pretend God should be able to do it any old way he likes? But beyond that, you consider your mind capable of judging your creator for what is good and bad? Think for a moment how ludicrous a thought that is! Yet you consider it valid evidence God does not exist, or at least that his way of salvation is false?

Nobody goes to Heaven for being worthy. The love has to do with those he saves, not because they are worthy. They are most decidedly NOT worthy.

Is He not omniscient, like you alluded to prior?

And BTW, this argument lends no credence to whether or not this God actually exists for either of us. It's merely a "side issue"

I've stated, on multiple occasions elsewhere, that if this God exists, He can do whatever He wants. I just find it illogical to lump in the word 'love' with the created scenario. You know, providing ONLY one extremely torturous destination for all the ones He decides not to elect into His Kingdom?

Mark Quayle said:
(btw, it's 'jibe' not 'jive'. 'Confirmation bias', not 'conformation bias' --though that one has a nice feel to it, lol.)

Oh please... This is not an English lit. class. Furthermore, the V/B is right next to each other. So is the I/O

Mark Quayle said:
A little like the judging thing, here, you get to decide what is loving, without acknowledging God's intense interest in all things. Maybe you can tell me why he should care at all what happens. But he does, and not just a little bit.

No, I did not decide what IS loving. I'm asking HOW one can logically lump in the word "love" with sending all the rejects, for which I would assume He also "loves", to a place of eternal torment? Is that what love is? You tell me?

Mark Quayle said:
You missed what I said, again. There are two options to heaven. 1. One is to live in perfect obedience to the law of God. 2. The other is Christ's substitution.

The rest failed to live in obedience to the law of God, and so their 'deserved eternal torment'.

1. THIS is God's criteria. And, Christ is the only one that has lived sinlessly. Nobody else wills to do so, nor can they. (Romans 8) This is why we 'deserve eternal torment'.
2. Those who fail to believe in Christ fail because of their enmity with God (Romans 8 also). This demonstrates their position under #1 above. But those who believe in Christ are recipients of Christ's substitution. They believe because God had mercy on them and changed them, giving them faith to believe. Their belief demonstrates their position under Christ's substitution.

By the way, sin is not 'absolved' in the Catholic sense. It is paid by Christ. Justice is done.

I did not miss what you said...

1. I agree. The claim is Jesus is the only one to claim He is perfect. Hence, the reason He provided substitutional atonement for the human race.
2. Belief is not a choice. I earnestly do not think Jesus rose from the grave. You, or the Bible, can gas light me all you want; but I really do not care.

BTW: Why do I care what the Catholics assert? Are they the correct denomination here?

Mark Quayle · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
Is He not omniscient, like you alluded to prior?

And BTW, this argument lends no credence to whether or not this God actually exists for either of us. It's merely a "side issue" I've stated, on multiple occasions elsewhere, that if this God exists, He can do whatever He wants. I just find it illogical to lump in the word 'love' with the created scenario. You know, providing ONLY one extremely torturous destination for all the ones He decides not to elect into His Kingdom?

The word 'love' applies to a child proceeding from the body of a father and mother, and to the product of an inventor, and to the understanding gained by a scientist. How much more what proceeds only from First Cause himself would be loved by him, in every detail.

I find the logic of this too, undeniable. IF God, then love for what he creates. Maybe it is because you seem to find no love that you find no God, or maybe because you find any lack of love, any sadness. After all, you would be correct to say that God would have no reason to create, if he were sadistic --it would be boring for such an Omnipotent to cause suffering of lesser creatures. So God is not unloving.

cvanwey said:
I did not miss what you said...

1. I agree. The claim is Jesus is the only one to claim He is perfect. Hence, the reason He provided substitutional atonement for the human race.
2. Belief is not a choice. I earnestly do not think Jesus rose from the grave. You, or the Bible, can gas light me all you want; but I really do not care.

1 The reason he can be a substitute has nothing to do with divinity? So, really, any sinless angel could have done it --it doesn't have to be God himself?
2 Where is the gas lighting? Do you not believe you can deny the evidence, or refuse to look at evidence?

cvanwey said:
BTW: Why do I care what the Catholics assert? Are they the correct denomination here?

The point is the word 'absolution'. It is a Catholic word, where supposedly sin is made null. The point is 'absolution' isn't what happened. The sin gets paid for. The scales of justice balance perfectly.

Clizby WampusCat · May 13, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I can show you more of the same sort of thing. You still have it backwards. See verse 10 just before the one you like. THEREFORE.

Your notion that man is capable of understanding and retaining all the relevant information is faulty, too. We haven't got the mental structure. Fact is, thought, we already have enough information, so that we are without excuse, and each person makes their own determination.

Again, this is untrue. If I had enough information to believe I would. I or anyone cannot make themselves believe something which they are not convinced is true.

Tell me what information you have that convinced you that God does exist.

The fact that God has mercy on some is none of the business of those who get what they deserve. He is fair to those who reject him. He has mercy on the rest.

This is the definition of unfair. Aren't all of us sinners and worthless? So God picking and choosing some to get mercy and some to not is not fair. Could God save everyone if He chose or is He not that powerful?

Mark Quayle · May 13, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
Again, this is untrue. If I had enough information to believe I would. I or anyone cannot make themselves believe something which they are not convinced is true.

Tell me what information you have that convinced you that God does exist.

Existence itself, and the otherwise all-pervasive principle of cause-and-effect, even without specific statement indicates First Cause, and that, With Intent.

Clizby WampusCat said:
This is the definition of unfair. Aren't all of us sinners and worthless? So God picking and choosing some to get mercy and some to not is not fair. Could God save everyone if He chose or is He not that powerful?

Suppose you had a contract to provide a service by a certain date. You hired what should have been the necessary labor to accomplish the task, for a certain sum. As the date approached you saw you needed more labor, so you hired more. Then when the date drew closer you hired more, just to be sure it would be done. When the day came to pay everyone, you payed everyone the same total amount, regardless of how many days they worked. As you might expect, those who worked the longest complained of unfairness (even though they had demonstrated laziness, and mouthing off about the Boss, on the job). You would say to them, "You got the amount we agreed on for the labor --so why are you complaining because I am generous to some? Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money?"

Clizby WampusCat · May 13, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Existence itself, and the otherwise all-pervasive principle of cause-and-effect, even without specific statement indicates First Cause, and that, With Intent.

Show the first cause was a god.

Suppose you had a contract to provide a service by a certain date. You hired what should have been the necessary labor to accomplish the task, for a certain sum. As the date approached you saw you needed more labor, so you hired more. Then when the date drew closer you hired more, just to be sure it would be done. When the day came to pay everyone, you payed everyone the same total amount, regardless of how many days they worked. As you might expect, those who worked the longest complained of unfairness (even though they had demonstrated laziness, and mouthing off about the Boss, on the job). You would say to them, "You got the amount we agreed on for the labor --so why are you complaining because I am generous to some? Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money?"

I know this parable but it does not apply to my objection. My objection is not that some get saved later than others but that some are chosen to be saved and some are chosen for hell.

cvanwey · May 13, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
God is the one wanting a relationship with himself. A relationship based upon His faithfulness, and justice. His justices saves the good (again):

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

And around and around we go...

"Christian justice begins and ends in believing and worshiping the right God. That's pretty much it, for the most part... You can try harder, but you will still fail all the time. This is why He atoned, for all your continued shortcomings. -- Via substitutionary atonement..."

Every Verse you provide further substantiates what I quoted (again) above.

FutureAndAHope said:
No. Sins are not arbitrary.

Yes they are. Why? For the same reason I keep expressing, over and over and over again. Try as hard as you might, you will not stop lying. Lying is sin. God hates all sin. Hence He sacrificed Himself to Himself. All you need now do, is accept this free gift He has given you. If you are a Christian, you will still lie. God dismisses this sin because you are a believer and worship Him.

This makes lies arbitrary, because one facet of being arbitrary is defined as [not being a necessity or a requirement]. Which means you will still lie, and can still get into heaven. Why, because you have accepted His free gift in it's place.

FutureAndAHope said:
Jesus said:

Mat 5:18-20 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen. If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. You must obey God's commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don't, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven.

The scribes followed laws but did not follow the heart of the law which was love out of a pure conscience.

The reader can take this two ways. Maybe more?

1. You must obey every Command. And when you don't, and you can't BTW, God will not let you in, or might assign you to a low level in heaven; if there exists such a thing? I guess you could ask a Mormon? They seem to believe there exists levels in heaven. At any rate, it suggests a works based salvation. But here's the kicker, an unbeliever could be a life-long philanthropist. But it really does not matter. Hence, works only seem to matter if you are a believer; regardless of what works you perform. Hence, we are then right back to polarizing belief and worship - above all else?

2. No one goes to heaven, because all will sin; all the way up to the point of death - (believer or not).

cvanwey · May 13, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Free will is the ability to respond freely to God's offer of salvation. Free will is the ability to choose whether we do right or wrong.

Okay. All this assumes the recipient already believes this God exists; and that the recipient then decides whether or not (s)he wants to follow Him or not. However, do I have true "free will" to believe whether or not I think He even exists? If you say "yes" here, please get ready for a news flash

FutureAndAHope said:
Not, at all. I don't persist in willful sins.

By persist, I mean you will continue to sin, whether it be willful or not, until you die. You are human. You will have 'good' moments along with 'bad' ones.

FutureAndAHope said:
I still have weaknesses and fears, but I do not deliberately set out to sin.

But this is why my joke is so pivotal here... The viewer of your sin still gets hurt, whether it was intentional or not. Sin is sin. God hates all sin --> (intentional or not). Do I need to keep using the same old tired example? One of the 10 Commandments tells you not to lie. Lying is a sin. And yet, you can lie for 'good'. The Bible does not provide caveats or exceptions for your lies. Hence, God must hate all lies. And yet, you will commit them every day, in some way, shape, or form. Hence, lies are virtually arbitrary, once saved. It does not matter if you commit less of them. You are still deemed a sinner, right up to the point of your passing. Therefore, your lies are virtually arbitrary.

cvanwey · May 13, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
'THIS' what? This following the word 'this'? Or does 'this' refer to what you were answering?

Where does the Bible say that if you say you do not believe in him you one or more of the 3 things you wrote?

Which verses are you talking about? The same as this next?

God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

I'd venture to state this verse tells it's readers that all know He is real, and many suppress this knowledge. But for some, they may actually be clouded by evil. And some others still might just be too dumb.

It goes right back to what we spoke about prior. You know, about inferring "intentional agency". It's harmless to infer intention, in the sense that if it should happen that no God is there; no harm, no foul. It just becomes another type 1 error. - No real danger.

Telling your readers what it tells you, in these Verses, could also be a form of 'gaslighting'?.?.

cvanwey · May 13, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Haha now you use me for a reference??? Btw, Future and a Hope and I are at opposition to much.

I would love to see you two exchange. But I bet you are already aware that no 'in-fighting' is allowed in these parts between Christians?

Mark Quayle said:
I would appreciate a quote, a reference, from a post where I used the very words you show there.

Sure:

(post 403) "If you are an unbeliever when you die, you die as a sinner, not being forgiven for SIN. You have not 'traded places' with Christ's righteousness."

Mark Quayle said:
I'm guessing MOST people who think they received Christ did not. There is no IN crowd. If a person does not continue in obedience, they do not belong to God. (No, that doesn't mean never sins again. It means never live sinfully, never continuing in sin.) Belonging to Christ does not give license to sin.

Professing belief, confessing that you are a sinner, and worshiping Him is not enough? I believe it is, according to Bible Verse. I can also demonstrate that it really only takes works. Heck, I can play "Texas sharpshooter" all day with this Big Book

Please also see what I just wrote to your competitor - posts 429 and 430

I'm not saying, "please sin as much as you can". I'm instead suggesting that it really does not matter that much either way. It also does not matter if your sins are intentional or not. Why? A lie, whether it be intentional or not, is still a lie. Which in turn, is still considered a sin regardless.

cvanwey · May 13, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Believing in Christ means continuing in him. It is no license to sin. Why do you misrepresent what the Bible says?

I trust my position is a little more clearer now? If not, I will be happy to elaborate further.

cvanwey · May 13, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
The word 'love' applies to a child proceeding from the body of a father and mother, and to the product of an inventor, and to the understanding gained by a scientist. How much more what proceeds only from First Cause himself would be loved by him, in every detail.

I find the logic of this too, undeniable. IF God, then love for what he creates. Maybe it is because you seem to find no love that you find no God, or maybe because you find any lack of love, any sadness. After all, you would be correct to say that God would have no reason to create, if he were sadistic --it would be boring for such an Omnipotent to cause suffering of lesser creatures. So God is not unloving.

I'm kinda sensing some acrobatics here? Sorry. No disrespect. Let me pose the straight forward scenario, as presented from the Bible...

- God is all powerful
- God is all loving
- God loves every one of His human creations
- God decides to continue creating humans.
- God decides to setup a dichotomous system.
- This dichotomy system comprises of [either] heaven or hell alone.
- Heaven equals eternal bliss, while hell equals eternal torture.
- God deems all humans unworthy of heaven, and instead deems all worthy of hell - (a place of eternal torment).
- God decides whom goes where; even though none of them are apparently worthy upon their own merit.
- The ones whom are chosen by God, or choose correctly, are picked. The ones which are not chosen, or pick incorrectly, receive eternal damnation.
- God states all deserve hell, but He will spare some.
- God calls this grace.

So my follow up question(s) become...

If God loves His creation, why is the only place, for which the 'unsaved' can dwell, outside His presence, is complete torture? Why not just make them cease existence, or other? Seems rather superfluous to send them to eternal torture? Why? Well, there will exist no possible rehabilitation there; just endless suffering?.?.? Seems rather odd to use the word 'love', without jumping through hoops to make it 'fit' (i.e.) "love equals sending the unchosen to a place of eternal torture"?

Mark Quayle said:
1 The reason he can be a substitute has nothing to do with divinity? So, really, any sinless angel could have done it --it doesn't have to be God himself?

I feel another red herring here.... People claim He is the Messiah. The Messiah is perfect.

Mark Quayle said:
2 Where is the gas lighting? Do you not believe you can deny the evidence, or refuse to look at evidence?

I've looked at the evidence. I do not believe He rose from the dead.

FutureAndAHope · May 13, 2021

cvanwey said:
And around and around we go...

"Christian justice begins and ends in believing and worshiping the right God. That's pretty much it, for the most part... You can try harder, but you will still fail all the time. This is why He atoned, for all your continued shortcomings. -- Via substitutionary atonement..."

Every Verse you provide further substantiates what I quoted (again) above.

Joh 4:23-24 But a time is coming, and it is already here! Even now the true worshipers are being led by the Spirit to worship the Father according to the truth. These are the ones the Father is seeking to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship God must be led by the Spirit to worship him according to the truth.

God wants worship of Himself according to truth. Truth is important.

Yes they are. Why? For the same reason I keep expressing, over and over and over again. Try as hard as you might, you will not stop lying. Lying is sin. God hates all sin. Hence He sacrificed Himself to Himself. All you need now do, is accept this free gift He has given you. If you are a Christian, you will still lie. God dismisses this sin because you are a believer and worship Him.

This is just not true. A Christian will not continue to lie.

1Jn 3:7-10 Children, don't be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself. Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done. God's children cannot keep on being sinful. His life-giving power lives in them and makes them his children, so that they cannot keep on sinning. You can tell God's children from the devil's children, because those who belong to the devil refuse to do right or to love each other.

This makes lies arbitrary, because one facet of being arbitrary is defined as [not being a necessity or a requirement]. Which means you will still lie, and can still get into heaven. Why, because you have accepted His free gift in it's place.

No. You must turn from sins to be saved.

The reader can take this two ways. Maybe more?

1. You must obey every Command. And when you don't, and you can't BTW, God will not let you in, or might assign you to a low level in heaven; if there exists such a thing? I guess you could ask a Mormon? They seem to believe there exists levels in heaven. At any rate, it suggests a works based salvation. But here's the kicker, an unbeliever could be a life-long philanthropist. But it really does not matter. Hence, works only seem to matter if you are a believer; regardless of what works you perform. Hence, we are then right back to polarizing belief and worship - above all else?

2. No one goes to heaven, because all will sin; all the way up to the point of death - (believer or not).

FutureAndAHope · May 13, 2021

cvanwey said:
Okay. All this assumes the recipient already believes this God exists; and that the recipient then decides whether or not (s)he wants to follow Him or not. However, do I have true "free will" to believe whether or not I think He even exists? If you say "yes" here, please get ready for a news flash

God will give enough information/knowledge of Himself for us to start a genuine search for God. We must of our own choosing be willing to do so.

By persist, I mean you will continue to sin, whether it be willful or not, until you die. You are human. You will have 'good' moments along with 'bad' ones.

Sure all people will have ups and downs, but due to God's help a Christian will have very few "sin" moments. His Spirit empowers us to not sin.

But this is why my joke is so pivotal here... The viewer of your sin still gets hurt, whether it was intentional or not. Sin is sin. God hates all sin --> (intentional or not). Do I need to keep using the same old tired example? One of the 10 Commandments tells you not to lie. Lying is a sin. And yet, you can lie for 'good'. The Bible does not provide caveats or exceptions for your lies. Hence, God must hate all lies. And yet, you will commit them every day, in some way, shape, or form. Hence, lies are virtually arbitrary, once saved. It does not matter if you commit less of them. You are still deemed a sinner, right up to the point of your passing. Therefore, your lies are virtually arbitrary.

I am very careful to speak the truth at all times. I think I have lied at most once in my life under a moment of great stress.

Mark Quayle · May 13, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
Show the first cause was a god.

Not "A god", THE GOD. First Cause was necessarily With Intent. Not accidental. And Omnipotent, thus, God.

Clizby WampusCat said:
I know this parable but it does not apply to my objection. My objection is not that some get saved later than others but that some are chosen to be saved and some are chosen for hell.

A small hint is: The reason some are chosen for Heaven is the same reason they were created. The Bride of Christ. And not because they are worthy, but because God has some particular way he is going to use each one.

If you want merely philosophical though, I guess you'll just have to go with Omnipotence can do whatever he wants and doesn't owe us anything --certainly doesn't owe us an explanation.

Mark Quayle · May 13, 2021

cvanwey said:
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

I'd venture to state this verse tells it's readers that all know He is real, and many suppress this knowledge. But for some, they may actually be clouded by evil. And some others still might just be too dumb.

It goes right back to what we spoke about prior. You know, about inferring "intentional agency". It's harmless to infer intention, in the sense that if it should happen that no God is there; no harm, no foul. It just becomes another type 1 error. - No real danger.

Telling your readers what it tells you, in these Verses, could also be a form of 'gaslighting'?.?.

What it says is 'knew', not 'believed'. The kind of believing that keeps the Elect is a whole different thing from knowing something is true.

I'm thinking I mentioned to you at one time or another, acknowledging the existence of God is hard to do, because it demands submission, though with practice you can shove that out of the way.

Romans 1 says (to me, admittedly), that God is obvious, from the fact of (to me, again) existence of nature. You can call it gaslighting, if you wish to keep the narrative under control, but it makes good sense to me. For whatever it is worth, one thing that plagues believers is the tendency to try to keep God at arms length, even for them. They only want to believe him just enough, no more. They too, want to demand proof before submitting.

As for your type 1 'no harm, no foul', that is your argument. I see no use in considering it longer than to just figure out what you are saying. I know my Redeemer lives.

Again, If Omnipotent God, then, First Cause. If First Cause, timelessness, and full intention. Every detail caused, on purpose, for his own use, everything under control. Natural or miracle irrelevant.

As you have asked in different ways, it is not because I've seen miracles that I believe in God. I believe in God because He lives in me.

Mark Quayle · May 13, 2021

cvanwey said:
I would love to see you two exchange. But I bet you are already aware that no 'in-fighting' is allowed in these parts between Christians?

We don't fight. We plead with each other to turn away from heresy, lol.

cvanwey said:
Sure:

(post 403) "If you are an unbeliever when you die, you die as a sinner, not being forgiven for SIN. You have not 'traded places' with Christ's righteousness."

You said: "As @Mark Quayle pointed out, once you 'receive Christ', you have now 'traded places'. Your future sins are auto-released from your permanent record. You are within the IN crowd now." So, your reference to what I said was limited to the 'trading places' part. I thought you were saying I had implied, if not outright stated, the rest of what you put there.

cvanwey said:
Professing belief, confessing that you are a sinner, and worshiping Him is not enough? I believe it is, according to Bible Verse. I can also demonstrate that it really only takes works. Heck, I can play "Texas sharpshooter" all day with this Big Book

'Enough' for what? Becoming saved, or enough for being a Christian? Yes, if one only obeys perfectly, his works will save him. But nobody can do that.

cvanwey said:
Please also see what I just wrote to your competitor - posts 429 and 430 I'm not saying, "please sin as much as you can". I'm instead suggesting that it really does not matter that much either way. It also does not matter if your sins are intentional or not. Why? A lie, whether it be intentional or not, is still a lie. Which in turn, is still considered a sin regardless.

I don't believe there is such a thing as an unintentional sin. One may not think they meant to do it, but they did. Sin is in enmity to God. Therefore intentional.

I looked at 429 and 430. I don't understand why you say it really does not matter. You mean, does not matter as far as keeping one from Heaven? What matters is whether you are one of the Elect, in which case God will see to it you are obedient. No, I'm not saying the Elect need not be careful and work. 'Believers' are not necessarily Elect. They may call themselves, and even think they are believers, but fool themselves. If they rely on that status as though they need not work, they are doing it wrong for sure.

cvanwey · May 13, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Joh 4:23-24 But a time is coming, and it is already here! Even now the true worshipers are being led by the Spirit to worship the Father according to the truth. These are the ones the Father is seeking to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship God must be led by the Spirit to worship him according to the truth.

God wants worship of Himself according to truth. Truth is important.

You will notice, that 'worship' is one of God's key criteria. Worship is not arbitrary.

If you do not worship Him, no amount of works will substitute for salvation. You can have belief/worship, and lack works. But you CANNOT have lack of belief and worship, and a ton of 'good' works

In the end game of 'faith' vs 'works', the works side is much more-so arbitrary. And again, by arbitrary, I mean not absolutely required; like it is absolutely required that you believe and worship.

FutureAndAHope said:
This is just not true. A Christian will not continue to lie.

Everyone lies. Whether it be a 'white lie', lying to spare someone's feelings, lying to get a job, lying to keep a surprise, etc etc etc............ These lies can even be with 'good intention'. But, according to the Bible, all lies are sin to God. Period. Hence, "substitutionary atonement" for your 'sinful nature'.

FutureAndAHope said:
No. You must turn from sins to be saved.

Well, if this is the case, then no one is saved.

What Convinced you God Exists?

What Convinced you God Exists?

Philosophical Argument

Personal Experience

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Just me

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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