Is it "controversial" for pastors to disagree with COVID-19 church closures?

Der Alte · May 12, 2021

2BeholdHisGlory said:
I missed this one, Del Alte which disease did Asa have in his feet that he should have sought to the LORD for and not physicians?
2Ch 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.

My screen name is "Der Alte" it is German and means "the elder." Help me out here where did I say anything which could remotely be interpreted as saying someone should not seek the LORD for some disease?

2BeholdHisGlory · May 12, 2021

Der Alte said:
My screen name is "Der Alte" it is German and means "the elder." Help me out here where did I say anything which could remotely be interpreted as saying someone should not seek the LORD for some disease?

Sorry about mispelling your name. I was just asking you a question whether you knew which disease it was he had in his feet. I was springboarding off of your post not because you said anything to be interpreted but just brought it forward.

BABerean2 · May 13, 2021

Dr. Ron Paul reveals the fact that much of the COVID-19 narrative is starting to fall apart, based on the truth about PCR testing.
CDC is now recommending 28 cycles or less, but did otherwise in the past.

CDC Embarks on New COVID Cover-Up (mercola.com)

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hedrick · May 13, 2021

Funny how all those false positives correlated with people going into hospitals and dying. To my knowledge the biggest issue with too many amplification steps was triggering on people who had had the disease. But it was pretty obvious when that was the case.

My biggest concern about this thread is that Christians seem preferentially subject to rumor and propaganda.

Dkh587 · May 13, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Dr. Ron Paul reveals the fact that much of the COVID-19 narrative is starting to fall apart, based on the truth about PCR testing.
CDC is now recommending 28 cycles or less, but did otherwise in the past.

CDC Embarks on New COVID Cover-Up (mercola.com)

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If you like to read, check out his (Dr Mercola) new book when you get a chance.

BABerean2 · May 13, 2021

Dkh587 said:
If you like to read, check out his (Dr Mercola) new book when you get a chance.

Thank you very much.

I am reading it now.

After reading the first chapter, I ordered several more copies for the leadership of my church.

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BABerean2 · May 13, 2021

hedrick said:
Funny how all those false positives correlated with people going into hospitals and dying. To my knowledge the biggest issue with too many amplification steps was triggering on people who had had the disease. But it was pretty obvious when that was the case.

My biggest concern about this thread is that Christians seem preferentially subject to rumor and propaganda.

Here are a few of the facts I know from personal experience.

One of my former students family runs a local funeral home.
They were told to code all deaths except gunshot wounds and traffic accidents, as COVID-19.

One of my former Sunday School teachers died of a heart attack.
The hospital asked his wife to let them record the death as COVID-19.
She refused because it was not true.

How many times have the two situations above been repeated all over the U.S.?

A local pharmacy refused to dispense Hydroxychloroquine prescribed by a doctor, because of Governor Roy Cooper's orders.
It took a phone call from the doctor directly to the pharmacist to get the prescription filled.

My wife tested positive with the newer Abbot Ag antigen test and I had a scratchy throat a few days later.
We stayed at home for a couple of weeks.

Quite a few people at my church were infected with minor cases.
Only one man had to be hospitalized for a few days.

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BABerean2 · May 13, 2021

The facts are also coming out about the NIH funding of the Wuhan Lab.

Dr. Anthony Fauci has also been an advocate of "Gain-of-Function" research.

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mkgal1 · May 13, 2021

BABerean2 said:
One of my former students family runs a local funeral home.
They were told to code all deaths except gunshot wounds and traffic accidents, as COVID-19.

Anecdotes are just like opinions. This is another rumor that's been spread with nothing to support it.

Just because you didn't lose someone personally to Covid doesn't mean it didn't happen (and in large numbers).

What I'm more concerned about is the disease of narcissism and lack of empathy running through American churches. There's no vaccine for that.....and it seems to be killing more than covid has.

BABerean2 · May 13, 2021

mkgal1 said:
Anecdotes are just like opinions. This is another rumor that's been spread with nothing to support it.

Your response here saddens me. Are you accusing me of lying?

We accomplished a great deal by working together in the Eschatology forum.

What happened? Have I now become your enemy?

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BABerean2 · May 14, 2021

Why should we trust Bill Gates to control the World Health Organization?

Self appointed Global Health Czar Bill Gates and his friend Jeffrey Epstein:

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The Liturgist · May 15, 2021

hedrick said:
We do that during flu season. I don’t see why it would be Satanic.

Meanwhile my local Russian Orthodox parish has had no masks and has communicated from a common chalice since June of last year without one illness, and the services are packed with Orthodox from other local churches who are more restrictive.

Reasonable safety measures are in place, of course: the hot wine Russian Orthodox use to wash down the Eucharist is in individual disposable cups, there is no Kiss of Peace in the congregation (which was the custom among the EO before this happened: only the Oriental Orthodox have a continual history of that practice).

The Liturgist · May 15, 2021

hedrick said:
Funny how all those false positives correlated with people going into hospitals and dying. To my knowledge the biggest issue with too many amplification steps was triggering on people who had had the disease. But it was pretty obvious when that was the case.

My biggest concern about this thread is that Christians seem preferentially subject to rumor and propaganda.

There is no doubt that Coronavirus is a deadly disease, but to paraphrase Patrick Henry, what use is life without liberty? In the US the Supreme Court upheld our Constitution forcing states to allow worship services with reasonable precautions, but unfortunately for Canadians, their Charter has in recent years demonstrated that its freedom of expression provisions are too weak, given that clergy have in some cases been prosecuted for hate speach simply for teaching the ancient Christian doctrines on human sexuality.

BABerean2 · May 15, 2021

Former VP of Pfizer Dr. Michael Yeadon warns about mRNA vaccines and the use of "Vaccine Passports":
Are We Being Set Up for Mass Depopulation? (mercola.com)

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hedrick · May 15, 2021

I agree that Canada needs a first amendment, or maybe a Supreme Court with a bit more of a commitment to freedom of speech.

I’m less impressed with the US Supreme Court decisions on Covid involving churches. Having acknowled that some regulations are oK, they pretended to be epidemiologists in judging specific ones.

Strong in Him · May 15, 2021

The Liturgist said:
There is no doubt that Coronavirus is a deadly disease, but to paraphrase Patrick Henry, what use is life without liberty?

Yes - but then again, we have responsibility for each other, and certainly the older and more vulnerable among us.

Here in the UK, my own church is not going to re-open again until Pentecost, and then the usual restrictions will be in place.
For myself, as one of the youngest members of the church (almost 60), I'd be fine with the concept of sitting without a mask, singing, hugging, coffee after the service etc. But it's not about me. It's about a) following the recommended advice and not being proud/maverick and saying "No, we'll do our own thing", and also respecting that there are some lovely saints among us who have breathing/heart problems, have had cancer or are otherwise vulnerable. They might not even mind for themselves, but they don't want to pass anything on to vulnerable family members.
So I'm not sure that saying, "we're Christians, we don't have to obey the world's rules and we're going to trust that God won't let any of us get sick," is right, or very helpful.
Apart from anything else, there is the implication that if you do get sick then it's because you didn't have enough faith.

hedrick · May 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Yes - but then again, we have responsibility for each other, and certainly the older and more vulnerable among us.

Here in the UK, my own church is not going to re-open again until Pentecost, and then the usual restrictions will be in place.
For myself, as one of the youngest members of the church (almost 60), I'd be fine with the concept of sitting without a mask, singing, hugging, coffee after the service etc. But it's not about me. It's about a) following the recommended advice and not being proud/maverick and saying "No, we'll do our own thing", and also respecting that there are some lovely saints among us who have breathing/heart problems, have had cancer or are otherwise vulnerable. They might not even mind for themselves, but they don't want to pass anything on to vulnerable family members.
So I'm not sure that saying, "we're Christians, we don't have to obey the world's rules and we're going to trust that God won't let any of us get sick," is right, or very helpful.
Apart from anything else, there is the implication that if you do get sick then it's because you didn't have enough faith.

It’s surprising how many Christians here have said “this just affects old people.” A few have even carried that comment to its logical conclusion and recommded putting old people in solitary. In the early church one of the big witnesses for Christianity was that in epidemics in Rome, physicians left the city, but Christians tended the sick. For Christians to insist on their freedom to ignore others seems like an unhappy reversal.

Strong in Him · May 15, 2021

hedrick said:
It’s surprising how many Christians here have said “this just affects old people.”

hedrick said:
A few have even carried that comment to its logical conclusion and recommded putting old people in solitary.

That's dreadful.
That would be our entire congregation - except for 3 of us.

hedrick said:
In the early church one of the big witnesses for Christianity was that in epidemics in Rome, physicians left the city, but Christians tended the sick.

What a great witness.

hedrick said:
For Christians to insist on their freedom to ignore others seems like an unhappy reversal.

Agreed - it's hardly loving others as God loves us.

BABerean2 · May 15, 2021

hedrick said:
For Christians to insist on their freedom to ignore others seems like an unhappy reversal.

How many churches have insisted on remaining open, but have not ignored others?

Many churches have advised their members to wear masks if they wanted to do so, and have checked temperatures at the door, and have told members to stay at home and worship electronically if they decided to do so.
That is freedom. It is about choice.

It does not have to be only one option, and that option dictated by government officials.

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hedrick · May 15, 2021

BABerean2 said:
How many churches have insisted on remaining open, but have not ignored others?

Many churches have advised their members to wear masks if they wanted to do so, and have checked temperatures at the door, and have told members to stay at home and worship electronically if they decided to do so.
That is freedom. It is about choice.

It does not have to be only one option, and that option dictated by government officials.

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Since when did freedom of choice become a top Christian value? In fact my own church stayed open, but with capacity limits. But voluntary masks make no sense, since the main purpose of masks is to make it less likely that you will affect others.

Is it "controversial" for pastors to disagree with COVID-19 church closures?

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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