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dóxatotheó

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Can a Catholic provide scripture for indulgences? because its supposedly an infallible faith according to the catechism may you help and provide scripture for this
"An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).
 

Pavel Mosko

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Bob Crowley

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There's an article here on indulgences.

Catholic Bible 101

I did once ask a priest about indulgences, and while he gave me a brief outline which pretty much went over my head, he finished by saying he didn't them much (indulgences).

While they're technically still a part of Catholic tradition, I've been Catholic for about 25 years now, and not once have I heard the term "Indulgence" used in a homily, sermon or mentioned in any mass. They're not emphasised much in the local church these days - that's for sure.

What would help to make it clearer in both the quoted articles - the one I gave, and the one referred to by Pavel Mosko - would be a definite example of an indulgence in the modern church. It's one thing to provide a technical explanation including Scriptural references, but it would help if a clear, specific example of an indulgence was given.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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This is one of these topics where people would be wise to learn more about Judaism especially if they are critics etc. In Judaism you have the commandments (mitzah), but their were rules and customs around those things aka halacha. And the spiritual leadership, (rabbis, Sanhedrin) tended to set some of the rules, customs, and norms over how those commandments were observed.


People (especially Protestants and Evangelicals especially) often think of Christianity as this brand new religion/Faith that has nothing in common with Judaism ("because of Grace" etc.) other than believing in their God and using their Holy books, but that isn't true. Even with the writings of saint Paul that draw a contrast between the Covenants at times, their is much more of an old testament basis in New Testament theology than what many Evangelicals would usually assume or be aware of. I could actually write a book on this topic, based on various theological discussions, debates, and arguments with such people on message boards over the last 20 years! And that is not an exaggeration....
 
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Pavel Mosko

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It's true that Christianity is connected in certain ways to Judaism, but that doesn't mean that whatever the Hebrews of OT times did or believed automatically becomes a Christian dogma and/or practice.

I'm not talking about that, but more in terms of paradigm etc. Also things like Economy of Religion etc.

Economy (religion) - Wikipedia.
 
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Albion

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I'm not talking about that, but more in terms of paradigm etc. Also things like Economy of Religion etc.

Economy (religion) - Wikipedia.
I see. Because the thread and the preceding post were specifically about Indulgences, I mistook the direction of your reply. Thanks for the 'heads up.'
 
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concretecamper

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Can a Catholic provide scripture for indulgences?
One first has to ask, Why do you need scriptural proof?
because its supposedly an infallible faith according to the catechism
being an infallible truth doesn't mean it needs to be explicit in scripture.
"An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity"
I think this paragraph from the CCC says it all. This along with the other references others have provided should make it pretty clear.
 
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dóxatotheó

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One first has to ask, Why do you need scriptural proof?
being an infallible truth doesn't mean it needs to be explicit in scripture.
I think this paragraph from the CCC says it all. This along with the other references others have provided should make it pretty clear.
1st premise can be answered by what is took as truth and what is taught by the apostles you can also quote 1st and 2nd century early christians on this ill accept but scripture has no flaws and it entails us how to be a christian
2nd premise yes very much is Paul warned about
2 Thessalonians 2:15 - Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
if i must believe something it has to be originally taught
3rd premise the catechism explains what it is and it does but not where its from originally or even a lick of scripture being shown
 
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dóxatotheó

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This is one of these topics where people would be wise to learn more about Judaism especially if they are critics etc. In Judaism you have the commandments (mitzah), but their were rules and customs around those things aka halacha. And the spiritual leadership, (rabbis, Sanhedrin) tended to set some of the rules, customs, and norms over how those commandments were observed.


People (especially Protestants and Evangelicals especially) often think of Christianity as this brand new religion/Faith that has nothing in common with Judaism ("because of Grace" etc.) other than believing in their God and using their Holy books, but that isn't true. Even with the writings of saint Paul that draw a contrast between the Covenants at times, their is much more of an old testament basis in New Testament theology than what many Evangelicals would usually assume or be aware of. I could actually write a book on this topic, based on various theological discussions, debates, and arguments with such people on message boards over the last 20 years! And that is not an exaggeration....
this isn't a argument on ignorance ofc christianity isnt a new religion and its based upon what was taught by the forefathers and apostles im asking because i am studying on ancient denoms and this is a peculiar faith im confused on and a variety of questions i hold concerning this is this supported by scripture and is it taught by the earliest accounted writings of christian saints i believe fallibilty of man but i also dont say that all practices are wrong that churches hold i personally accept eucharist and water baptism being new birth etc. im asking about this because in grace we follow these traditions because it was originally taught according to St.Paul im asking is there proof scripturally or historically thank you
 
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concretecamper

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1st premise can be answered by what is took as truth and what is taught by the apostles you can also quote 1st and 2nd century early christians on this ill accept but scripture has no flaws and it entails us how to be a christian
of course scripture has no flaws. But scripture never claims to contain the total of the Christian faith.
2nd premise yes very much is Paul warned about
2 Thessalonians 2:15 - Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Paul is referencing the Tanakh. The scripture Timothy knew from his youth was the Tanakh, not the bible.
Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Which is why Jesus commanded us to listen to the Church (Mat 18:17) and not follow the novel ideas of people like Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, ETC.
3rd premise the catechism explains what it is and it does but not where its from originally or even a lick of scripture being shown
again, Christ commanded us to listen to the Church.

I'll be done. I'd rather not derail your thread any longer.
 
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dóxatotheó

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of course scripture has no flaws. But scripture never claims to contain the total of the Christian faith.
Paul is referencing the Tanakh. The scripture Timothy knew from his youth was the Tanakh, not the bible.
Which is why Jesus commanded us to listen to the Church (Mat 18:17) and not follow the novel ideas of people like Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, ETC.
again, Christ commanded us to listen to the Church.

I'll be done. I'd rather not derail your thread any longer.
friend Matthew 18:16-18 i dont reject like i said this isnt an argument from ignorance i already know of the many flaws of the RCC church of Rome the founding of Antioch also The 4 ecumencial councils such as Chalcedon ik almost all the many interesting core beliefs seen universal in your church that was inconclusive early 2nd century the rock is peter Jesus builded the rock on him wat does that entail? what churches was founded? what church was founded by Peter? alot of questions that we fall to we wall to primacy vs supremacy infallibility vs fallibilty Catholic vs Unorthodox we continue to fall in those categories just becuz im young ad impressionable doesnt mean i am ignorant wat so ever in church history
alot of saints didnt see it in your faith wise as i can quote Bruno of Segni’s beliefs on the rock and St.Hilary aswell to show what i mean
"You say, and you speak truth, because I am the Christ, Son of the living God: and I speak to you, because you are Peter, strong in faith, and in stable doctrine. In fact, unless in this name of fortitude and stability Christ would have had understood, not by it [the rock/petram] which onward it is followed to have had been joined, saying: and upon this rock I will build my Church. If you do not understand Peter, [then] look at the rock: but the rock is Christ. Yes, therefore, Peter [is] from the rock, just as a Christian [is] from Christ. Accordingly we may see what shall be and upon this rock I will build my Church. Upon this rock, which only you have laid in the foundation of faith; upon this faith, which only you have taught, saying: You are Christ, Son of the living God; upon this rock and upon this faith I will build my Church"." In fact, this is principally said to Peter, and it ought to be understood as being said to the rest of the apostles".
Bruno Astensis Montis Casini Abbas - Commentaria In Matthaeum [1107-1111] Full Text at Documenta Catholica Omnia
"This faith it is which is the foundation of the Church; through this faith the gates of hell cannot prevail against her. This is the faith which has the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatsoever this faith shall have loosed or bound on earth shall be loosed or bound in heaven. This faith is the Father’s gift by revelation; even the knowledge that we must not imagine a false Christ, a creature made out of nothing, but must confess Him the Son of God, truly possessed of the Divine nature. What blasphemous madness and pitiful folly is it, that will not heed the venerable age and faith of that blessed martyr, Peter himself, for whom the Father was prayed that his faith might not fail in temptation; who twice repeated the declaration of love for God that was demanded of him, and was grieved that he was tested by a third renewal of the question, as though it were a doubtful and wavering devotion, and then, because this third trial had cleansed him of his infirmities, had the reward of hearing the Lord’s commission, Feed My sheep, a third time repeated; who, when all the Apostles were silent, alone recognised by the Father’s revelation the Son of God, and won the pre-eminence of a glory beyond the reach of human frailty by his confession of his blissful faith! What are the conclusions forced upon us by the study of his words? He confessed that Christ is the Son of God; you, lying bishop of the new apostolate, thrust upon us your modern notion that Christ is a creature, made out of nothing. What violence is this, that so distorts the glorious words? The very reason why he is blessed is that he confessed the Son of God. This is the Father’s revelation, this the foundation of the Church, this the assurance of her permanence. Hence has she the keys of the kingdom of heaven, hence judgment in heaven and judgment on earth".CHURCH FATHERS: On the Trinity, Book VI (Hilary of Poitiers)
These saints seen it as metaphorical and not literal supreme authority of your church or Peter himself it would seem an exegesis is afoot and must be pointed out and answered, They focused on the rock as either being Christ or the confession of faith. Almost all of the writers considered the keys to be the exact same as the powers of binding and loosing, and not to be a distinct entity. The only exceptions are Jerome and Rupert, only because Jerome and Rupert do not discuss the keys. Therefore, they all believed that all of the apostles received the keys, with a few exceptions: Hrabanus Maurus, Paschasius Radbertus, and Hilary of Poitiers . Their positions were quite radical in that they believed that every Christian believer held the keys by virtue of faith, not just the apostles and their successors. Im asking a question on indulgences not papal supremacy because thats a topic i dont feel to discuss on if we have to discuss radically on that and also the 1st premise that scripture doesn't state that thats not my premise even catholics would say that they believe that scripture the source material for beliefs and 2nd premise that argument doesn't even make sense fam to the verse or even what im addressing
3rd premise was addressed by refuting papal supremacy by saints you believe entails your beliefs :)
 
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dóxatotheó

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and also to add
of course scripture has no flaws. But scripture never claims to contain the total of the Christian faith.
Paul is referencing the Tanakh. The scripture Timothy knew from his youth was the Tanakh, not the bible.
Which is why Jesus commanded us to listen to the Church (Mat 18:17) and not follow the novel ideas of people like Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, ETC.
again, Christ commanded us to listen to the Church.

I'll be done. I'd rather not derail your thread any longer.
to that that wasn't a derail a derail would be answers to questions you merely just prove intellectual dishonesty responding to me
 
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dóxatotheó

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of course scripture has no flaws. But scripture never claims to contain the total of the Christian faith.
Paul is referencing the Tanakh. The scripture Timothy knew from his youth was the Tanakh, not the bible.
Which is why Jesus commanded us to listen to the Church (Mat 18:17) and not follow the novel ideas of people like Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, ETC.
again, Christ commanded us to listen to the Church.

I'll be done. I'd rather not derail your thread any longer.
the argument based on the reformers faith isn't good whatsoever even common saints never addressed that the keys solely was for Peter the apostle as the supreme authored saint/apostle in reality your entailing a premise not substantiating it im almost certain your special pleading rn because its certain your justifying your faith from un conceptualized premises i literally dont get what your even tryna address anymore because saints/bible and ig reformers disagree with your churches beliefs and i still want an answer for indulgence historically and biblically :)
 
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of course scripture has no flaws. But scripture never claims to contain the total of the Christian faith.
Paul is referencing the Tanakh. The scripture Timothy knew from his youth was the Tanakh, not the bible.
Which is why Jesus commanded us to listen to the Church (Mat 18:17) and not follow the novel ideas of people like Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, ETC.
again, Christ commanded us to listen to the Church.

I'll be done. I'd rather not derail your thread any longer.
Jesus commanded us to obey Him not the catholic church. John 14:15, John 15:10
 
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dóxatotheó

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There's an article here on indulgences.

Catholic Bible 101

I did once ask a priest about indulgences, and while he gave me a brief outline which pretty much went over my head, he finished by saying he didn't them much (indulgences).

While they're technically still a part of Catholic tradition, I've been Catholic for about 25 years now, and not once have I heard the term "Indulgence" used in a homily, sermon or mentioned in any mass. They're not emphasised much in the local church these days - that's for sure.

What would help to make it clearer in both the quoted articles - the one I gave, and the one referred to by Pavel Mosko - would be a definite example of an indulgence in the modern church. It's one thing to provide a technical explanation including Scriptural references, but it would help if a clear, specific example of an indulgence was given.
amazing response thank you
 
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dóxatotheó

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Jesus commanded us to obey Him not the catholic church. John 14:15, John 15:10
friend Jesus built his church on Peter and this linguistic used by Jesus is insinuating core doctrine from his church ofc im not Catholic im just saying what u said is false 2 Thessalonians 2:12 and Matthew 18:16-19 now im not saying Peter was some supreme authored apostle or a Pope im saying our core faith originated from his church which was taught from our Lord we follow his church because the church is the bride hes the groom we always follow the Lord in grace his church is the body we stay in do you agree on that notion?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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friend Jesus built his church on Peter and this linguistic used by Jesus is insinuating core doctrine from his church ofc im not Catholic im just saying what u said is false 2 Thessalonians 2:12 and Matthew 16:16-19 now im not saying Peter was some supreme authored apostle or a Pope im saying our core faith originated from his church which was taught from our Lord we follow his church because the church is the bride hes the groom we always follow the Lord in grace his church is the body we stay in do you agree on that notion?
Jesus built His church on His Word. The apostles were suppose to go spread God's Word. The changes from the Church are not what the apostles taught. The history from the RCC is quite questionable.
 
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dóxatotheó

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Jesus built His church on His Word. The apostles were suppose to go spread God's Word. The changes from the Church are not what the apostles taught. The history from the RCC is quite questionable.
I agree the immutable church isnt based on the RCC church foundations is why i made this thread but the fundamental core doctrine isnt based on RCC doctrine at least we can agree on that but some teachings regarding purgatory, indulgences, and immaculate conception are teachings i can never accept unless theres proof historically and biblically and i also wanted to point out the teachings that are regarded as orthodox in other churches should be seen at least orthodox teachings to u such as water baptism being new birth or full presence in eucharist the RCC isnt the true church to me at what i studied but us as christians who based there beliefs off the bible also shouldn't make private interpetations and lean on them. We should always seek the true church instead discern from it we both see the RCC as not the true church we also shouldnt say we shouldnt follow the true church this advice for you God bless :)
 
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