What Convinced you God Exists?

Clizby WampusCat · May 12, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
The Bible tells us that God is love. But that is not His only attribute. He also has anger against those who refuse the truth so they can keep on sinning. Now I am sure we have all done this at some point, but God is merciful to forgive.

I have not refused the truth. I am unconvinced by the evidence that I have evaluated so far. I don't like when I do wrong so these are not applicable to me.

Rom 1:18-19 For there is a revelation of the wrath of God from heaven against all the wrongdoing and evil thoughts of men who keep down what is true by wrongdoing; Because the knowledge of God may be seen in them, God having made it clear to them.

The knowledge of God has not been made clear to me as demonstrated by my unbelief. You want me to believe that I know something is true and I don't know that I know it is true. That is impossible. This verse is false.

Clizby WampusCat · May 12, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
That's a misrepresentation. You are positing the matter backwards. God doesn't ensure people would be fooled in believing a lie that would keep them unforgiven. They are already rejecting him --at enmity with him. That's like the claim that God is unfair in 'not giving people the chance'. There is no such thing as chance, except in our minds. What makes you think anyone is denied the opportunity, when it is their own will that rejects him?

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But beyond that, there is no reason to expect 'fair'; God has the right to be generous to some, and to the rest, to give them according to what they have earned. He owes nobody anything. 'Fair' is we all die. It is not unfair for anyone to die. It is unfair to Christ, for some to be given mercy.

A fair God would give everyone the evidence they need to be convinced He exists. Then each person could make their own determination what to decide with all the information available. God picking and chooses who is saved is not fair to all.

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
You miss my point in all three above: You present the scenario of an absolute blank slate upon which God has the ability to write whatever story he wishes (to do whatever he pleases). You think he should have been able to give other options between bliss and torment. The problem with that is not only that it fails to take into consideration what God's purpose is in creating in the first place, but it fails to consider what an extreme thing GOD is.

God can do whatever He wants, or He is not really God. You seem to still be avoiding my direct observation. I will try yet again.

God's only created destination, for the people He does not deem worthy, is a place of eternal torment. That's it. How does this jive with the term 'love' coherently?

Mark Quayle said:
You deserve eternal condemnation for SIN, not for being unable to choose to believe. You make the same grammatical leap in logic that many do in your quote: 'Whoever does not believe will be condemned' does not mean that they are condemned FOR not-believing, but that not-believing describes or identifies them.

If you are an unbeliever when you die, you die as a sinner, not being forgiven for SIN. You have not 'traded places' with Christ's righteousness.

Not all "SIN", just the lack in belief to a specific deity

If you do believe, then all the rest becomes absolved (via 'trading places'). However, I cannot will a belief in this deity, as hard as I might try. And yet, this becomes God's criteria, at least in part, for salvation? If I do not fulfill this specific request, then my only alternative destination is a place of 'deserved eternal torment.'

FutureAndAHope · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
All people "sin", up to the point of death. Please remember, all lie, probably every day. God hates lies, because God hates 'sin'. "Not lying" is listed as one of the 10 Commandments. Your explanation is false.

A person who becomes a Christian is joined to God, via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads a person away from sin. A genuine Christian will have very little sin. They certainly will not be lying consistently. Connection to God gives empowerment over sin.

Mark 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

Gal 5:16-17 If you are guided by the Spirit, you won't obey your selfish desires. The Spirit and your desires are enemies of each other. They are always fighting each other and keeping you from doing what you feel you should.

FutureAndAHope · May 12, 2021

There are going to be two entirely different views of God presented in this Thread Mark Quayle believe in a doctrine called predestination. Where essentially God makes all the choices. I believe that God reveals himself to people at given points in their life and that the person's response to that knowledge determines their destiny.

I discuss what Predestination is here Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry and clarify my belief.

The difference between these two ideas is vast.

Predestination:

Man is essentially unpleasing to God, can not please God, and can not respond to repentance
Man can only be saved if God chooses them, only those He Elects to be saved will come to salvation the rest will be damned, because they deserve it

Free Will

God made man in His own image, he said that man was "good", God loves man.
When man fell sin separated God's presence from man, without God's presence man struggled under the weight of sin, and desire for sin. Yet while we were still sinner God loved us, and gave Jesus to pay for our sins and reunite us to a relationship with God.
God is love, and wants people to follow the way of genuine love.
God shows Himself to people during their life and asks them to move away from sin, back to a relationship with God.
Man's response to who God is will determine their destiny if through patient well-doing they will inherit life, if they persist in sin they will be cut off.

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
A person who becomes a Christian is joined to God, via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads a person away from sin. A genuine Christian will have very little sin. They certainly will not be lying consistently. Connection to God gives empowerment over sin.

Please let me clarify even further. You WILL sin, until you die. You will lie, until you die. It does not matter if it's [less often]. God hates it all. The only differing factor, between the saved and the unsaved, (according to Christian doctrine), is profession to the "right God". The rest does not matter much, or much less apparently.

Hence, under the planted flag of "Christian justice', the ones who believe, and worship the correct God are saved. The ones who don't, are not saved. Both sides will still lie, which is deemed a sin to God either way (believer or not).

Morals are then rendered virtually arbitrary, with Christianity.

Which I guess begs a follow up question... Why follow all the other Commandments?

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

@FutureAndAHope

Joke time...

What is the difference between a Christian whom lies to you, vs. an atheist whom lies to you?

FutureAndAHope · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
Please let me clarify even further. You WILL sin, until you die. You will lie, until you die. It does not matter if it's [less often]. God hates it all. The only differing factor, between the saved and the unsaved, (according to Christian doctrine), is profession to the "right God". The rest does not matter much, or much less apparently.

Hence, under the planted flag of "Christian justice', the ones who believe, and worship the correct God are saved. The ones who don't, are not saved. Both sides will still lie, which is deemed a sin to God either way (believer or not).

Morals are then rendered virtually arbitrary, with Christianity.

Which I guess begs a follow up question... Why follow all the other Commandments?

God is just, He ensures that those who act justly will be saved.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

God does not hate man, He understands weakness in man:

Psa 103:8-14 The LORD is merciful! He is kind and patient, and his love never fails. The LORD won't always be angry and point out our sins; he doesn't punish us as our sins deserve. How great is God's love for all who worship him? Greater than the distance between heaven and earth! How far has the LORD taken our sins from us? Farther than the distance from east to west! Just as parents are kind to their children, the LORD is kind to all who worship him, because he knows we are made of dust.

FutureAndAHope · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
@FutureAndAHope

Joke time...

What is the difference between a Christian whom lies to you, vs. an atheist whom lies to you?

Waiting for the punch line.

FutureAndAHope · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
Please let me clarify even further. You WILL sin, until you die. You will lie, until you die. It does not matter if it's [less often]. God hates it all. The only differing factor, between the saved and the unsaved, (according to Christian doctrine), is profession to the "right God". The rest does not matter much, or much less apparently.

Hence, under the planted flag of "Christian justice', the ones who believe, and worship the correct God are saved. The ones who don't, are not saved. Both sides will still lie, which is deemed a sin to God either way (believer or not).

Morals are then rendered virtually arbitrary, with Christianity.

Which I guess begs a follow up question... Why follow all the other Commandments?

To further reply to this it is all about heart. A person who follows after Christ is trying to do right. The person who follows their own lusts and anger is trying to do wrong. That is the difference between the saved and unsaved. One moves toward the right, one moves toward the wrong.

A Christian may fall into sin, God will correct them, and restore them. He does not let us stay in sin.

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Waiting for the punch line.

The answer is 'nothing'. A Christian lie and a non-Christian lie is still a lie, all-the-same.

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
God is just, He ensures that those who act justly will be saved.

Christian justice begins and ends in believing and worshiping the right God. That's pretty much it, for the most part... You can try harder, but you will still fail all the time. This is why He atoned, for all your continued shortcomings. -- Via substitutionary atonement...

FutureAndAHope said:

John 14:23

Click to expand...

FutureAndAHope said:
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Please see my response above.

FutureAndAHope said:
God does not hate man, He understands weakness in man:

Psa 103:8-14 The LORD is merciful! He is kind and patient, and his love never fails. The LORD won't always be angry and point out our sins; he doesn't punish us as our sins deserve. How great is God's love for all who worship him?

I rest my case, as stated above. As long as you profess to the right deity, you are golden. Your sins are virtually arbitrary

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
To further reply to this it is all about heart. A person who follows after Christ is trying to do right. The person who follows their own lusts and anger is trying to do wrong. That is the difference between the saved and unsaved. One moves toward the right, one moves toward the wrong.

A Christian may fall into sin, God will correct them, and restore them. He does not let us stay in sin.

This is patently false. You stay in sin until you die. The rest of your response has already been addressed.

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Free Will

What is your definition of 'free will'?

FutureAndAHope said:
if they persist in sin they will be cut off.

All persist in sin, up until the point of your death. Does this mean there exists some numeric cut-off point? Please also remember what I stated about lies.

Mark Quayle · May 12, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

A fair God would give everyone the evidence they need to be convinced He exists. Then each person could make their own determination what to decide with all the information available. God picking and chooses who is saved is not fair to all.

I can show you more of the same sort of thing. You still have it backwards. See verse 10 just before the one you like. THEREFORE.

Your notion that man is capable of understanding and retaining all the relevant information is faulty, too. We haven't got the mental structure. Fact is, thought, we already have enough information, so that we are without excuse, and each person makes their own determination.

The fact that God has mercy on some is none of the business of those who get what they deserve. He is fair to those who reject him. He has mercy on the rest.

FutureAndAHope · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
Christian justice begins and ends in believing and worshiping the right God. That's pretty much it, for the most part... You can try harder, but you will still fail all the time. This is why He atoned, for all your continued shortcomings. -- Via substitutionary atonement...

God is the one wanting a relationship with himself. A relationship based upon His faithfulness, and justice. His justices saves the good (again):

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I rest my case, as stated above. As long as you profess to the right deity, you are golden. Your sins are virtually arbitrary

No. Sins are not arbitrary. God give power to leave them behind. Jesus said:

Mat 5:18-20 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen. If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. You must obey God's commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don't, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven.

The scribes followed laws but did not follow the heart of the law which was love out of a pure conscience.

Mark Quayle · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
God can do whatever He wants, or He is not really God. You seem to still be avoiding my direct observation. I will try yet again.

Your 'direct observation' lacks logical rigor. God can do whatever he wants. He wanted to make a people for himself, that are 'real' in a sense no other being --not even angels-- can be. And THIS is the only way to do it. You pretend God should be able to do it any old way he likes? But beyond that, you consider your mind capable of judging your creator for what is good and bad? Think for a moment how ludicrous a thought that is! Yet you consider it valid evidence God does not exist, or at least that his way of salvation is false?

cvanwey said:
God's only created destination, for the people He does not deem worthy, is a place of eternal torment. That's it. How does this jive with the term 'love' coherently?

Nobody goes to Heaven for being worthy. The love has to do with those he saves, not because they are worthy. They are most decidedly NOT worthy.

(btw, it's 'jibe' not 'jive'. 'Confirmation bias', not 'conformation bias' --though that one has a nice feel to it, lol.)

A little like the judging thing, here, you get to decide what is loving, without acknowledging God's intense interest in all things. Maybe you can tell me why he should care at all what happens. But he does, and not just a little bit.

cvanwey said:
Not all "SIN", just the lack in belief to a specific deity If you do believe, then all the rest becomes absolved (via 'trading places'). However, I cannot will a belief in this deity, as hard as I might try. And yet, this becomes God's criteria, at least in part, for salvation? If I do not fulfill this specific request, then my only alternative destination is a place of 'deserved eternal torment.'

You missed what I said, again. There are two options to heaven. 1. One is to live in perfect obedience to the law of God. 2. The other is Christ's substitution.

The rest failed to live in obedience to the law of God, and so their 'deserved eternal torment'.

1. THIS is God's criteria. And, Christ is the only one that has lived sinlessly. Nobody else wills to do so, nor can they. (Romans 8) This is why we 'deserve eternal torment'.
2. Those who fail to believe in Christ fail because of their enmity with God (Romans 8 also). This demonstrates their position under #1 above. But those who believe in Christ are recipients of Christ's substitution. They believe because God had mercy on them and changed them, giving them faith to believe. Their belief demonstrates their position under Christ's substitution.

By the way, sin is not 'absolved' in the Catholic sense. It is paid by Christ. Justice is done.

cvanwey · May 12, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I can show you more of the same sort of thing. You still have it backwards. See verse 10 just before the one you like. THEREFORE.

Your notion that man is capable of understanding and retaining all the relevant information is faulty, too. We haven't got the mental structure. Fact is, thought, we already have enough information, so that we are without excuse, and each person makes their own determination.

The fact that God has mercy on some is none of the business of those who get what they deserve. He is fair to those who reject him. He has mercy on the rest.

This is what I've been saying for a while now. The Bible attests to it's readers that if you say you do not believe in Him, then you are either:

1. a rebellious liar

and/or

2. blocked by sin/evil

and/or

3. dumb/stupid/ignorant

Which one of the (3) is @Clizby WampusCat ?

Seems like the author of these Verses may also infer 'intentional agency'. Makes sense

Most do it all the time; and it's harmless to infer so, even when you are dead wrong. It's kind of like all those who state "what do you have to loose in believing?"

FutureAndAHope · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
What is your definition of 'free will'?

Free will is the ability to respond freely to God's offer of salvation. Free will is the ability to choose whether we do right or wrong.

All persist in sin, up until the point of your death. Does this mean there exists some numeric cut-off point? Please also remember what I stated about lies.

Not, at all. I don't persist in willful sins. I still have weaknesses and fears, but I do not deliberately set out to sin.

The cross is available for those who "will" to do good, obeying God. To forgive their lack, in any area. I am not saved by a number, I am just saved by God's offer of complete forgiveness.

Mark Quayle · May 12, 2021

cvanwey said:
This is what I've been saying for a while now. The Bible attests to it's readers that if you say you do not believe in Him, then you are either:

1. a rebellious liar

and/or

2. blocked by sin/evil

and/or

3. dumb/stupid/ignorant

Which one of the (3) is @Clizby WampusCat ?

'THIS' what? This following the word 'this'? Or does 'this' refer to what you were answering?

Where does the Bible say that if you say you do not believe in him you one or more of the 3 things you wrote?

Which verses are you talking about? The same as this next?

cvanwey said:
Seems like the author of these Verses may also infer 'intentional agency'. Makes sense Most do it all the time; and it's harmless to infer so, even when you are dead wrong. It's kind of like all those who state "what do you have to loose in believing?"

I don't know what you are talking about here.

What Convinced you God Exists?

What Convinced you God Exists?

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