Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

Timtofly

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when the wicked under the command of Satan surround Christ and the glorified saints as a sand of the sea.
So you do agree Christ is on earth. You just keep preaching that God cannot destroy mankind, but yet does destroy mankind. 2 Peter 3 happens at the Second Coming, yet this reality will be handed back to God after the Millennial reign of Christ. It will not include those consumed in fire, who do not think Christ should reign who listen to Satan. Yes some people really think Christ should not reign on earth and they march to be heard. They are then consumed by fire, just as freely as their choice to be heard.
 
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Timtofly

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Unlike Premil, the curse is removed forever. You reintroduce it to your Premil earth populating it with billions of mortal wicked.
No i don't. That is your strawman argument. Your own private interpretation.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Per Amil the NHNE follow the GWTJ. Per Amil it would not even be until the NHNE that the curse is removed. Neither side, Amil nor Premil, believes that the thousand years follow the GWTJ. This of course means that if the 1000 years are post the 2nd coming, this wouldn't be reintroducing the curse. The curse wouldn't even be removed as of yet, since there still has to be a little season for satan, and then the GWTJ.

Apparently, and without a shred of proof, Amils think the GWTJ will only involve a fraction of a second, or at most, 24 hours or less. But what if it actually requires longer than that, even longer than 24 hours? What do Amils do then, since, per Amil the NHNE can't even begin until the GWTJ has finished first? In the meantime the curse would not be fully removed yet.

Amils do not know how long the judgment is. Neither do you. This is another moot point that is attempting to support Premil. The reality is: your millennium is fallen, corrupt and ends in a mess. There is no way round it!
 
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Timtofly

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Per Amil the NHNE follow the GWTJ. Per Amil it would not even be until the NHNE that the curse is removed. Neither side, Amil nor Premil, believes that the thousand years follow the GWTJ. This of course means that if the 1000 years are post the 2nd coming, this wouldn't be reintroducing the curse. The curse wouldn't even be removed as of yet, since there still has to be a little season for satan, and then the GWTJ.

Apparently, and without a shred of proof, Amils think the GWTJ will only involve a fraction of a second, or at most, 24 hours or less. But what if it actually requires longer than that, even longer than 24 hours? What do Amils do then, since, per Amil the NHNE can't even begin until the GWTJ has finished first? In the meantime the curse would not be fully removed yet.
If you are talking about the curse of sin, it is removed at the Second Coming per the 7th Trumpet. The march 1000 years later is not because of any curse. It is only a chance for some to change their minds, under the influence of Satan's deception. Amil claim Satan is not even decieving the world now, which is a blatant lie. Then they claim the deception after 950+ years of perfection, means the curse and deception were during the 950+ years of perfection as a strawman argument, just because a small percentage follow Satan at the very end.

How does one get to billions being decieved if there is not a time of perfection where 100s of billions have lived on a perfect earth? Currently in this sin cursed earth 2 to 4 billion out of less than 8 billion accept "a God". Also billions have been killed, and the church only started out with several hundred.

In the Millennium you already have millions of humans resurrected in incorruptible sin free bodies who populate the earth for 950+ years without death and decay. Only instant Death for disobedience. Without Satan around how many are going to just up and want to die for no reason at all but to test God?

People complain about overpopulation with 6 billion on earth. Christ and John claim 100s of billions of humans cannot over populate the earth. Satan will probably use over population as an excuse to march, obviously he knows right now, they will be consumed by fire. It is already prophecied it will happen. That will take care of Satan's need to depopulate, just by getting them to march across the land.

This rebellion at the end is not about Satan getting sin back into reality. It is about Satan getting as many to rebel against God as will listen to him. It is a proven biblical fact that rebellion ends in Death. Death was the result of Adam's disobedience. That was the only Law. There was no sin when Adam ate the fruit. There was sin after Adam physically and spiritually died, and God punished Adam and drove them out of Paradise, because sin could not exist in Paradise. Sin will not exist in the Millennial reign either.

The Second Death is the result of sin, and no one on earth can be touched by the Second Death. They are resurrected in incorruptible bodies. Clearly pointed out in Revelation 20:6. How can they claim people living and born in the last 1991 years, are continually living on earth without sin and the Second Death? This camp of the saints is on earth, and physical. Their offspring will also have incorruptible bodies. The only way to die, is apparently by fire coming down out of heaven. The term sinner does not have to be just those born of Adam's flesh. No one will even have Adam's flesh. Amil know that, but still reject the Lord's Day and the resurrection into incorruptible bodies. Their current millennium is full of sin, and they think that is acceptable for Christ to present to God.

The only item presented to God at the Second Coming is the glorified church. Then after the thousand years, the consummation, of those who came out of the tribulation that happened after the Second Coming. The tribulation does not last for 1000 years. It does not even have to last for 3 years. Satan should not even get 42 months. It seems the church is just expecting Satan to be allowed to walk right in and take over, even though the church could prevail and witness God's healing revival. Where is Faith that God is better than personal physical comforts? Too many today are eating from the tree of Satan's science (knowledge).
 
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Timtofly

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Amils do not know how long the judgment is. Neither do you. This is another moot point that is attempting to support Premil. The reality is: your millennium is fallen, corrupt and ends in a mess. There is no way round it!
No, the current mess amil claim is the millennium is a bust. The only perefect millennium will be after God cleanses the earth with fire, instead of water. Water came first and was literal, and reality survived. Fire comes next and will be literal, and reality will survive. Then the 1000 years Lord's Day will finish up current reality. A glorious kingdom to hand back to God after the defeat of Death, at the GWT.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No, the current mess amil claim is the millennium is a bust. The only perefect millennium will be after God cleanses the earth with fire, instead of water. Water came first and was literal, and reality survived. Fire comes next and will be literal, and reality will survive. Then the 1000 years Lord's Day will finish up current reality. A glorious kingdom to hand back to God after the defeat of Death, at the GWT.

That is your private opinion. That is unsupported by Scripture.
 
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Timtofly

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That is your private opinion. That is unsupported by Scripture.
That is what amil claim. Is your opinion not amil? How can your opinion be my opinion?

Is not the current state of affairs bust? No one is enslaved in sin or dying now? That is what you claim is the Lord's Day of glorious reign. This current sin infested Satan worshipping here and now is your opinion of the Lord's Day.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Absolute rubbish.
The Millennium will be an amazing time. Many scriptures describe it, Zechariah 14:16-21 is just one of them, there will still be nations and all will observe the Ordinances and obey the Commandments.
So, what is your explanation for why a number "as the sand of the sea" would suddenly decide that they don't want to obey and experience that "amazing time" anymore? Wouldn't it make more sense that most people who experience something like that would want more of the same instead of rebelling against it?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Per Amil the NHNE follow the GWTJ. Per Amil it would not even be until the NHNE that the curse is removed. Neither side, Amil nor Premil, believes that the thousand years follow the GWTJ. This of course means that if the 1000 years are post the 2nd coming, this wouldn't be reintroducing the curse. The curse wouldn't even be removed as of yet, since there still has to be a little season for satan, and then the GWTJ.

Apparently, and without a shred of proof, Amils think the GWTJ will only involve a fraction of a second, or at most, 24 hours or less. But what if it actually requires longer than that, even longer than 24 hours? What do Amils do then, since, per Amil the NHNE can't even begin until the GWTJ has finished first? In the meantime the curse would not be fully removed yet.
I don't see why it matters how long the GWTJ takes. We all know that once it's over, believers will inherit the new earth and unbelievers will be in the lake of fire. The amount of time it takes for the GWTJ to be completed (if time even exists as we know it at that point) has no bearing on whether premil or amil is true.
 
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Timtofly

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So, what is your explanation for why a number "as the sand of the sea" would suddenly decide that they don't want to obey and experience that "amazing time" anymore? Wouldn't it make more sense that most people who experience something like that would want more of the same instead of rebelling against it?
Satan is allowed to walk among those on the earth, and start a grass roots movement. If Satan convinced 25% of those living in the Garden to follow him, and later 50%, since Cain would rather follow after his mom and dad, than live with his brother, then Satan can convince 5% to 10% to follow him among 100's of billions.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Satan is allowed to walk among those on the earth, and start a grass roots movement. If Satan convinced 25% of those living in the Garden to follow him, and later 50%, since Cain would rather follow after his mom and dad, than live with his brother, then Satan can convince 5% to 10% to follow him among 100's of billions.
How are you coming up with your numbers? You think there will be 100s of billions of people on the earth at that time? And only 5 to 10% would follow Satan? It says the number of them is as "the sand of the sea". Isn't it quite clear from what is written in Revelation 20:7-9 that the number of rebels significantly outnumbers the number in "the camp of the saints"?
 
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Timtofly

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How are you coming up with your numbers? You think there will be 100s of billions of people on the earth at that time? And only 5 to 10% would follow Satan? It says the number of them is as "the sand of the sea". Isn't it quite clear from what is written in Revelation 20:7-9 that the number of rebels significantly outnumbers the number in "the camp of the saints"?
If billions of Chinese arrived in New York city, would they outnumber those in New York city? Would they outnumber those in India, Australia, Africa, South America, who were not involved in the march of the Chinese?
 
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sovereigngrace

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That is what amil claim. Is your opinion not amil? How can your opinion be my opinion?

Is not the current state of affairs bust? No one is enslaved in sin or dying now? That is what you claim is the Lord's Day of glorious reign. This current sin infested Satan worshipping here and now is your opinion of the Lord's Day.

We have not yet arrived at the day of the Lord. You are trying (and failing) to understand Amil by examining it by faulty Premil rules of interpretation.
 
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Timtofly

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We have not yet arrived at the day of the Lord. You are trying (and failing) to understand Amil by examining it by faulty Premil rules of interpretation.
Yet your 17 points does the exact same thing. You claim the Day of the Lord happened at the Cross. This is simply done by the human opinion of recap. Sorry but human opinion cannot change the words of Revelation. You take the same pre-mill argument and paint it with faulty opinion and call it amil.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 has not happened yet. It is incorporated into the Day of the Lord.

I do not know the "rules of pre-mil interpretation". Is that your faulty opinion as well? The only rule of interpretation in my post, is reading comprehension, of the actual Word of God. No opinions or attempting some kind of spiritual application. Yes facts are necessary. Facts about what happens when time happens. We know that on earth, if there are people living for hundreds of years, who can have offspring, the default explanation is that they have multiple generations of offspring. That is not a private interpretation. That is a fact of biological life.

In the Garden of Eden before Adam disobeyed God, there was no sin. Paul claims sin entered the world. That is Paul's interpretation of what happened. You can either claim that was Paul's opinion, or the Holy Spirit taught him that fact. If sin entered the world, notice it did not even say the Garden of Eden, at what point? It is a simple fact that prior to that point, there was no sin in the world. In Genesis 4, God had a conversation with Cain that sin was outside of. Meaning that Cain was about to let sin in. Both figuratively and physically. Cain did not bring sin into the world. Adam did that. Cain was about to bring sin into God's Holy Place, the Garden of Eden where Cain and Abel were still in the presence of God. If Cain and Abel were born in sin outside of the Garden, how did they get back into the Holy Presence of God? This story does not happen after the Flood. It does not happen 900 years after the Fall. Yet it does happen in the Garden after the Fall. Because Cain is sent out just like Adam and Eve had to leave. Jesus claims Abel was the first martyr that is from spiritual and literal disobedience to God. God told Cain not to let sin in. Cain did not die. God did not punish Cain with death. God punished Cain with a mark, and that Cain could not work, because the earth would not yield production as Cain's punishment. Literally Cain could not do anything physical to make a living. He had to manipulate others into accomplishing his desires. That is why he built a city, so that others would serve him in doing what he could not. That is why he is "of Satan". Not because Cain was Satan's biological offspring. It is because Satan cannot do anything either. He has to manipulate humans to do his accomplishments.

That is why sin is not in the Millennium, and we are not currently in the Millennium. We still sin. After Satan is loosed, he will convince many to march against Christ and those reigning with Christ. They would not do it from their desires. Satan could not do it alone. Satan decieves many to do what he could not, and what they would not do just by themselves. Those are the facts. Interpret them or not.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yet your 17 points does the exact same thing. You claim the Day of the Lord happened at the Cross. This is simply done by the human opinion of recap. Sorry but human opinion cannot change the words of Revelation. You take the same pre-mill argument and paint it with faulty opinion and call it amil.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 has not happened yet. It is incorporated into the Day of the Lord.

I do not know the "rules of pre-mil interpretation". Is that your faulty opinion as well? The only rule of interpretation in my post, is reading comprehension, of the actual Word of God. No opinions or attempting some kind of spiritual application. Yes facts are necessary. Facts about what happens when time happens. We know that on earth, if there are people living for hundreds of years, who can have offspring, the default explanation is that they have multiple generations of offspring. That is not a private interpretation. That is a fact of biological life.

In the Garden of Eden before Adam disobeyed God, there was no sin. Paul claims sin entered the world. That is Paul's interpretation of what happened. You can either claim that was Paul's opinion, or the Holy Spirit taught him that fact. If sin entered the world, notice it did not even say the Garden of Eden, at what point? It is a simple fact that prior to that point, there was no sin in the world. In Genesis 4, God had a conversation with Cain that sin was outside of. Meaning that Cain was about to let sin in. Both figuratively and physically. Cain did not bring sin into the world. Adam did that. Cain was about to bring sin into God's Holy Place, the Garden of Eden where Cain and Abel were still in the presence of God. If Cain and Abel were born in sin outside of the Garden, how did they get back into the Holy Presence of God? This story does not happen after the Flood. It does not happen 900 years after the Fall. Yet it does happen in the Garden after the Fall. Because Cain is sent out just like Adam and Eve had to leave. Jesus claims Abel was the first martyr that is from spiritual and literal disobedience to God. God told Cain not to let sin in. Cain did not die. God did not punish Cain with death. God punished Cain with a mark, and that Cain could not work, because the earth would not yield production as Cain's punishment. Literally Cain could not do anything physical to make a living. He had to manipulate others into accomplishing his desires. That is why he built a city, so that others would serve him in doing what he could not. That is why he is "of Satan". Not because Cain was Satan's biological offspring. It is because Satan cannot do anything either. He has to manipulate humans to do his accomplishments.

That is why sin is not in the Millennium, and we are not currently in the Millennium. We still sin. After Satan is loosed, he will convince many to march against Christ and those reigning with Christ. They would not do it from their desires. Satan could not do it alone. Satan decieves many to do what he could not, and what they would not do just by themselves. Those are the facts. Interpret them or not.

When have I (or any Amil) said that "the day of the Lord happened at the cross"? That is another false charge. You clearly have no understanding of the Amil position. If you did you would not hurl such false claims.
 
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Timtofly

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When have I (or any Amil) said that "the day of the Lord happened at the cross"? That is another false charge. You clearly have no understanding of the Amil position. If you did you would not hurl such false claims.
Yes you do. You claim the resurrection of Revelation 20:4 happened in the first century. That is the Day of the Lord resurrection that starts the Millennium reign of Christ. It is not a false claim to point out that Revelation 20 covers the Day of the Lord. It is not a false claim to point out Amil disagree with that fact.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes you do. You claim the resurrection of Revelation 20:4 happened in the first century. That is the Day of the Lord resurrection that starts the Millennium reign of Christ. It is not a false claim to point out that Revelation 20 covers the Day of the Lord. It is not a false claim to point out Amil disagree with that fact.

The first resurrection of Revelation 20:4 did happen in the first century. You deem that the day of the Lord and then judge Amil by your faulty conclusion. Amils believe that the day of the Lord appears at the end of Satan's little season. This is another proof that you do not understand Amil. Because you have no answer to it you have to create straw-men arguments. Address what we believe, not what you wrongly think we believe.

This is more evidence that Premil does not add up.
 
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Timtofly

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The resurrection first resurrection of Revelation 20:4 did happen in the first century. You deem that the day of the Lord and then judge Amil by your faulty conclusion. Amils believe that the day of the Lord appears at the end of Satan's little season. This is another proof that you do not understand Amil. Because you have no answer to it you have to create straw-men arguments. Address what we believe, not what you wrongly think we believe.

This is more evidence that Premil does not add up.

Except that is amil opinion that Revelation 20:4 is in the first century. John says Revelation 20:4 is after Armageddon and the first day of the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is the 1000 year reign of Christ.

You do claim the Lord's Day is an indefinite length of time. IE, going on 1991 years.


There is no Scriptural evidence, zilch, that Revelation 20:4 is the week of the Cross. That is human opinion. Which you seem to disregard, unless it "backs up" your eschatology. Human opinion cannot back up any eschatology.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Except that is amil opinion that Revelation 20:4 is in the first century. John says Revelation 20:4 is after Armageddon and the first day of the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is the 1000 year reign of Christ.

You do claim the Lord's Day is an indefinite length of time. IE, going on 1991 years.


There is no Scriptural evidence, zilch, that Revelation 20:4 is the week of the Cross. That is human opinion. Which you seem to disregard, unless it "backs up" your eschatology. Human opinion cannot back up any eschatology.

No. That is your faulty opinion. Don't foist that on Amil. We do not accept that. 2+2=4, not 22. The day of the Lord is future when He arrives to introduce eternal perfection, not more-of-the-same as you argue.
 
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Timtofly

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No. That is your faulty opinion. Don't foist that on Amil. We do not accept that. 2+2=4, not 22. The day of the Lord is future when He arrives to introduce eternal perfection, not more-of-the-same as you argue.
First of all, I never said more of the same. My opinion is that you gave an opinion. Until you give something else than, "No, not really", I have no other opinion, than you have an opinion.
 
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