Was the 70th Week of Daniel Fulfilled during the First Century?

Timtofly said:

Revelation 11:15
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

It was not the angel speaking. It was all the voices in heaven speaking. The angel kept on sounding the Trumpet.

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Tim, you are jumping to a different chapter.

What the seventh angel will do in regards to God's plan to close out the age is in Revelation 10.

In Revelation 11:15 is the seventh angel doing it. The great voices in heaven is the reaction of them in heaven when the announcement is made by the angel blowing his trumpet and verbally speaking with his voice. It does not say the exact words of the seventh angel but in Revelation 10 it indicates he speaks because it is in the days of his voice.

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't know what you're talking about. It would obviously be a sin for them to intend to destroy "the camp of the saints". This isn't even worth debating.

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No it is not. You claim sin is rampant for 1000 years. It is not even in their hearts 5 seconds prior to Satan being released from the pit. It is Satan who convinces them to march. They never even act on their march at the end, because fire consumed them before they acted on what you claim is in their hearts.

Douggg said:

Tim, you are jumping to a different chapter.

What the seventh angel will do in regards to God's plan to close out the age is in Revelation 10.

In Revelation 11:15 is the seventh angel doing it. The great voices in heaven is the reaction of them in heaven when the announcement is made by the angel blowing his trumpet and verbally speaking with his voice. It does not say the exact words of the seventh angel but in Revelation 10 it indicates he speaks because it is in the days of his voice.

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It is the voice of his trumpet.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


And the fifth angel sounded.

And the sixth angel sounded.

The angels did not speak. Their Trumpets sounded. It was the voice of the Trumpet.

John heard this in chapter 4:

"and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me."

This voice of all the angels were the Trumpet soundings.

Yes the mystery of Daniel and even the mystery of John's 7 Thunders will be know and finished at the start of the 7th Trumpet. The wrath of God will be complete at the end of the sound coming from the 7th Trumpet.

Timtofly said:

It is the voice of his trumpet.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


And the fifth angel sounded.

And the sixth angel sounded.

The angels did not speak. Their Trumpets sounded. It was the voice of the Trumpet.

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It does not say in the voice of the fifth angel and the sixth angel.

The seventh angel is the only of of the seven that sounds his trumpet and also announces with his voice.

Timtofly said:

John heard this in chapter 4:

"and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me."

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John heard a trumpet call to him and then heard Jesus saying come up here.

Is that not what we are waiting for at anytime, a trumpet call to us, and Jesus saying come up here? Not as reading what happened to John in the written word, but as a trumpet sounding from heaven and hearing of none other than Jesus Himself to us.

Which will be the end of all the problems for us as associated with this body. The ultimate answer to our prayers.

Timtofly said:

No it is not. You claim sin is rampant for 1000 years. It is not even in their hearts 5 seconds prior to Satan being released from the pit. It is Satan who convinces them to march. They never even act on their march at the end, because fire consumed them before they acted on what you claim is in their hearts.

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Regardless of what occurs during the thousand years, what happens after that during Satan's little season obviously involves sin. I already explained to you how Jesus said that anyone who hates someone is a murderer (1 John 3:15) and these rebels obviously hate "the camp of the saints". Your lack of discernment regarding what counts as being sin is, frankly, disturbing.

Douggg said:

It does not say in the voice of the fifth angel and the sixth angel.

The seventh angel is the only of of the seven that sounds his trumpet and also announces with his voice.

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No, it says in the days of. That is the difference. Some think that means the time leading up to or after. All the angels sound is called "voice". The precedent was made in this verse in the 4th chapter:

"and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me."

The 7th Trumpet is distinguished by a prepositional phrase.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel."

Then we see: "when he shall begin to sound"

The 5th angel sounded.

The 6th angel sounded.

The 7th angel sounded.

When the 7th angel starts to sound it is the sound of the Trumpet. All of the Trumpets sounded like voices. John heard the voices and they sounded like Trumpets. We have a description of angels who sound and are Trumpets. That is their voice. The voice of the 7th Angel will last for days. The days of the voice is what is different about the 7th angel. The other 6 angels did not sound for days. At least John does not claim that. He only claims what the angel standing on the earth and sea is claiming about the 7th angel.

Later in chapter 11, he writes what does happen when the 7th angel sounds (speaks with the sound of a Trumpet, as you put it) Most assume it sounds like a Trumpet, thus we all use the term "Trumpet/s" with out need of saying angel.

Douggg said:

John heard a trumpet call to him and then heard Jesus saying come up here.

Is that not what we are waiting for at anytime, a trumpet call to us, and Jesus saying come up here? Not as reading what happened to John in the written word, but as a trumpet sounding from heaven and hearing of none other than Jesus Himself to us.

Which will be the end of all the problems for us as associated with this body. The ultimate answer to our prayers.

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That happens at physical death to all in Christ. The hope of the believer.


In Matthew 24:30-31

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet"

Along with Revelation 6:12-13

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

Along with 1 Thessalonians 4:16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God"

That archangel is the actual 7th Trumpet. We hear the 7th Trumpet even before the 7th Seal is even opened. The church does not wait until it sounds again after the 6 Trumpets, after the 7 Thunders. The 7th angel is what is heard at the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. He is the primary of the 7 angels. He is the last Trump heard in 1 Corinthians 15:52

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The archangel sounds at the 6th Seal first and foremost. That is not part of the 7 angel judgments. The 7th is the primary archangel and sounds both at the beginning in the 6th Seal, and also at the end because the 7th sounding is the week long celebration that closes out the final harvest. Paul is not describing the when at the end. Paul is describing the archangel as he heralds the arrival at the Second Coming. Since the 7th judgment is the most important it is done by the primary angel last. Paul never claims we have to endure all 6 judgments and 7 Thunders. That is a misleading interpretation.

Spiritual Jew said:

Regardless of what occurs during the thousand years, what happens after that during Satan's little season obviously involves sin. I already explained to you how Jesus said that anyone who hates someone is a murderer (1 John 3:15) and these rebels obviously hate "the camp of the saints". Your lack of discernment regarding what counts as being sin is, frankly, disturbing.

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Just as much as your insistence there is no future Millennium. That is just as disturbing. God declares a 1000 year reign without sin and without Satan. What is disturbing is that many reject that declaration. Do you not think the "sin at the end" of the Millennium in rejecting the reign of Christ is as important as denying the Millennium will happen? They live at the end. We live before it starts. Whose "sin" is greater?

Timtofly said:

Just as much as your insistence there is no future Millennium. That is just as disturbing. God declares a 1000 year reign without sin and without Satan. What is disturbing is that many reject that declaration.

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I don't reject Christ's reign, though. I just disagree with the timing. That is hardly equivalent to denying that there would be sin during or after that time. Revelation 20:7-9 makes it quite clear that there would be lots of sin going on during Satan's little season.

Where does it say that there would be no sin during the thousand years?

Do you not think the "sin at the end" of the Millennium in rejecting the reign of Christ is as important as denying the Millennium will happen? They live at the end. We live before it starts. Whose "sin" is greater?

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Can you clarify what you're asking here? It seems that you are trying to equate rejecting premil in favor of amil is no different than people rebelling against Christ at the end of "the Millennium"? If so, that is utterly ridiculous.

It's not a sin to believe in amil or premil. One of us is obviously wrong about our understanding of the thousand years, but it's not a sin to be wrong about that.

Timtofly said:

That happens at physical death to all in Christ. The hope of the believer.

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No, John was not dead in Revelation 4.

What John experienced was a preview of the rapture of the living.

From what you wrote in the rest of your post, you appear to believe that the rapture/resurrection will take place when the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, and it is his voice which is the come up here. And you also claim the timing to be at the sixth seal, which in turn is at the Second Coming (or right before it).

Which I presume that you are of the post trib view?

The flaw in your reasoning is that Matthew 24:32-51, the condition of the world at the time of the rapture will be when the world is not in great tribulation. And in Luke 21:34-36, is the indication of the rapture being a means of escaping the great tribulation. As well as Revelation 3:10.

Douggg said:

No, John was not dead in Revelation 4.

What John experienced was a preview of the rapture of the living.

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No, it was not. For one thing, He was not bodily caught up. And he was given a vision of heaven. When Christ returns we will be bodily caught up to meet Christ "in the air". John being given a vision of heaven has nothing to do with that whatsoever.

From what you wrote in the rest of your post, you appear to believe that the rapture/resurrection will take place when the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, and it is his voice which is the come up here. And you also claim the timing to be at the sixth seal, which in turn is at the Second Coming (or right before it).

Which I presume that you are of the post trib view?

The flaw in your reasoning is that Matthew 24:32-51, the condition of the world at the time of the rapture will be when the world is not in great tribulation.

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Matthew 24:29-31 makes it quite clear that Jesus will return "after the tribulation of those days" and Matthew 24:32-51 is all about His return.

And in Luke 21:34-36, is the indication of the rapture being a means of escaping the great tribulation. As well as Revelation 3:10.

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Those passages have nothing to do with being taken off of the earth in order to escape great tribulation. It has to do with being protected through it while still on the earth.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Clearly, we don't need to be taken out of the world in order for God to keep us from tribulation. Your understanding of the passages you cited contradicts what Jesus prayed about for His followers.

Timtofly said:

The 5th angel sounded.

The 6th angel sounded.

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But not with their voices. Where-ever it says an angel sounded - it means he blows his trumpet.

There may be other voices accompanying him blowing his trumpet, but the angel(s) sounding means he blows his trumpet.

What you are trying to do, because you are misunderstanding Revelation 4:1, is interpreting the angels sounding as being the sound of the angel's voice as being that of a trumpet.

But if you look in Revelation 8:2 the 7 angels are given seven trumpets. Which means that the angels sounding is not their voices sounding like trumpets.

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, it was not. For one thing, He was not bodily caught up. And he was given a vision of heaven. When Christ returns we will be bodily caught up to meet Christ "in the air". John being given a vision of heaven has nothing to do with that whatsoever.

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In Revelation 4:2, it says he was immediately in the spirit. And the voice he heard said come up hither (here). Meaning John came from down below to the throne of God in heaven.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Spiritual Jew said:

Matthew 24:29-31 makes it quite clear that Jesus will return "after the tribulation of those days" and Matthew 24:32-51 is all about His return.

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Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to the Jews in the end times, in particular them living in Judea, who will end up going through the great tribulation, which will be ended with Jesus's return.

Differently, Matthew 24:32-52 is a message to Christians in the end times, because it refers to Jesus as being "your Lord" (which the Jews do not yet believe Jesus as their Lord) on how to avoid to having to go through the great tribulation - via His coming for Christians for the rapture.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, it was not. For one thing, He was not bodily caught up. And he was given a vision of heaven. When Christ returns we will be bodily caught up to meet Christ "in the air". John being given a vision of heaven has nothing to do with that whatsoever.

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Yes, there is that difference of meeting Jesus in the air when the rapture actually takes place.

I say that John's experience in Revelation 4:1-2 was a preview of the rapture, but not an exact enactment because in the rapture, the corruptible bodies of ours put on incorruptibility, which John's experience was represented by him being immediately in the spirit. It does not say his body was changed to be incorruptible.

However, John had some sort of body when taken in the spirit because when he ate the small scroll in Revelation 10:9 it made his stomach bitter. Which because his stomach hurt, is another indicator of not being an exact enactment of the rapture. We are talking John's being called up as being "in similitude", but not exactly, as the rapture.

9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't reject Christ's reign, though. I just disagree with the timing. That is hardly equivalent to denying that there would be sin during or after that time. Revelation 20:7-9 makes it quite clear that there would be lots of sin going on during Satan's little season.

Where does it say that there would be no sin during the thousand years?

Can you clarify what you're asking here? It seems that you are trying to equate rejecting premil in favor of amil is no different than people rebelling against Christ at the end of "the Millennium"? If so, that is utterly ridiculous.

It's not a sin to believe in amil or premil. One of us is obviously wrong about our understanding of the thousand years, but it's not a sin to be wrong about that.

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I am not the one claiming sin. You said disturbing. Since the Millennium is after sin is eradicated, whose timing is off?

This is not just about Jesus' reign. It is about a very huge crowd of resurrected souls into physical incorruptible bodies without sin or Satan for 1000 years, and a reign with Christ. All you have so far is a reign with Christ. You do not place it on earth. You do not allow 1000 years without sin. You do not allow a resurrection to physical incorruptible bodies. You claim it is not on earth, yet that is where Satan is released to and decieves people to march across the earth. It is more than timing being off.

Douggg said:

No, John was not dead in Revelation 4.

What John experienced was a preview of the rapture of the living.

From what you wrote in the rest of your post, you appear to believe that the rapture/resurrection will take place when the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, and it is his voice which is the come up here. And you also claim the timing to be at the sixth seal, which in turn is at the Second Coming (or right before it).

Which I presume that you are of the post trib view?

The flaw in your reasoning is that Matthew 24:32-51, the condition of the world at the time of the rapture will be when the world is not in great tribulation. And in Luke 21:34-36, is the indication of the rapture being a means of escaping the great tribulation. As well as Revelation 3:10.

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No the 7th sounding is not the rapture nor the Second Coming. The archangel has the job of both sounding at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. Then again, the archangel sounds the 7th and final sounding year/s later.

We are dead now in these physical corruptible bodies. Being raptured assures us a different permanent incorruptible body that is not dead. If John went to Paradise he could only do so in an incorruptible body. He certainly did not go in this corruptible body. Adam's flesh and blood cannot enter Paradise. John's soul was more than likely given a permanent incorruptible body when Herod tried to boil him in a vat of oil. It was claimed he came out better than he went in. If it was not the oil, John would have to have been given an incorruptible one on the way up to Paradise.

When the 3 Hebrews went into the fiery furnace and Christ appeared with them, was He there to give them permanent incorruptible bodies?

Timtofly said:

We are dead now in these physical corruptible bodies. Being raptured assures us a different permanent incorruptible body that is not dead.

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corruptible means subject to dying, decaying, growing old. incorruptible means never dying again, and never growing old.

Also be incorruptible means not limited to location, which currently in these corruptible bodies we are restricted to earth.

Douggg said:

corruptible means subject to dying, decaying, growing old. incorruptible means never dying again, and never growing old.

Also be incorruptible means not limited to location, which currently in these corruptible bodies we are restricted to earth.

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Even those alive need to be resurrected from corruptible bodies. Paul says changed. Even those alive still need to be changed. Those in Paradise now have already changed. They are not waiting for us dead on earth. We cannot prevent their change.

Timtofly said:

Even those alive need to be resurrected from corruptible bodies. Paul says changed.

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The word is changed, not resurrected. Other words applicable for the living could be translated, transformed.