Adventist Investigative Judgment

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
4. the Judgment of all - is depicted in Dan 7 as the solution for the problem of persecution of the saints - and that same problem is brought up again in Dan 8 - - where the solution is called "cleansing of the sanctuary"

Both picture nations and the little horn.

The judgment in favor of the saints is to end their persecution. And it culminates in their receiving the kingdom. But that is after their in person judgment before Christ at His appearing:

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
Phil 2
9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

No doubt this happens in Rev 20 at the Great White Throne judgment -- but at that time only the cases of the wicked are brought in review - the cases of the saints where "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 already happened before the second coming - as you already agreed.

But you are compressing those two phases of judgment future to Paul's day into one as if it all happened in the Dan 7 judgment that you already admitted is - before the 2nd coming. I thank that is conflating too many events into one to get what you are looking for.

In those two phases of Judgment - one of them has this
1. Judgment passed in favor of the saints Dan 7:22
2. Persecution of the saints while judgment is going on Dan 7:24-26
3. Gospel evangelism while judgment is going on - Rev 14:6-7

The other one has this
1. only the wicked raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged
2. Every knee bows in the presence of Christ the judge of all.

We are just repeating at this point. The judgment in Daniel 7 is on the nations and the little horn.

The saints are delivered from those persecuting them. It refers to the saints collectively, and there is no confusion who they are.

But to the point on Phil. 2:

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Notice the parallels:

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

In this passage believers:

- Stand before the judgment seat
- bow
- confess
- give an account of themselves

That is not in absentia. That is in person. And it is line with the various texts that indicate this happens at Jesus' coming, where professed believers interact with Him, and give an account, and He judges them.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
The mechanism for transferring the sins confessed over the head of the sin offering (taking sin away from the guilty person and transferring it) - was the priesthood. The Priest was either to bring that blood of the sin offering into the sanctuary or else eat some portion of the sin offering and then take it into the sanctuary in the form of the "person" of the Priest.

Lev 10:16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!

===================

However, as interesting as this detail may be to SDAs and ex-SDAs - we need to stay focused on the main point of the pre-advent investigative Judgment that we already discussed in Daniel chapter 7 and also the Daniel 8 and 9 texts that point to judgment hour of Rev 14:7 starting in 1844 where judgment is described in 2 Cor 5:10 and Rom 2:4-16.

One does not need to go through Lev 10:16-18 to get those big-picture details.

It is in fact important to the discussion. Ellen White sees Jesus' blood as transferring sin to the sanctuary, rather than forgiving sin.

The sin offering, however, did atone and forgive.

Lev 4:13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,
Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
Lev 4:16 Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull into the tent of meeting,
Lev 4:17 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil.
Lev 4:18 And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is in the tent of meeting before the LORD, and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:19 And all its fat he shall take from it and burn on the altar.
Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:21 And he shall carry the bull outside the camp and burn it up as he burned the first bull; it is the sin offering for the assembly.
Lev 4:22 “When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the LORD his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:23 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish,
Lev 4:24 and shall lay his hand on the head of the goat and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
Lev 4:25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
Lev 4:26 And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. So the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.
Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:32 “If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish
Lev 4:33 and lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev 4:34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

The person lays their hands on the head of the sin offering, which does indeed represent transfer. But then the sin offering dies, taking on the penalty for sin, and its blood forgives and atones. Because it points to the death of Jesus.

The sin offering is the picture of individual confession for a particular sin. It is Jesus who died for our sins.

The blood or flesh of the sin offering makes holy:

Leviticus 6:25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the Lord: it is most holy.
26 The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation.
27 Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.

It is most holy. Anything it touches is holy. Anything the blood falls on must be washed in a holy place, because it is holy.

The blood makes atonement, because it points to the blood of Christ.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

And even in the instance you reference, which was a case where they did not do so because of ritual uncleanness.

Lev 10:16 Now Moses diligently inquired about the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it was burned up! And he was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the surviving sons of Aaron, saying,
Lev 10:17 “Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?
Lev 10:18 Behold, its blood was not brought into the inner part of the sanctuary. You certainly ought to have eaten it in the sanctuary, as I commanded.”
Lev 10:19 And Aaron said to Moses, “Behold, today they have offered their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD, and yet such things as these have happened to me! If I had eaten the sin offering today, would the LORD have approved?”
Lev 10:20 And when Moses heard that, he approved.

This refers back to Lev. 6:

Lev 6:29 Every male among the priests may eat of it; it is most holy.
Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

The offering is holy. The blood is holy. Anything the flesh touches is holy. It must be eaten in a holy place. The priest who eats it must also be in a holy state. Therefore, they could not eat it when unclean.

The purpose is to make atonement in the holy place, not to defile the holy place. And it forgives and atones.

The priest was not defiled by the sin offering, because the priest points to Jesus who is both High Priest and sacrifice, and was by no means defiled. He bore our sins and His death made atonement.

While the sin offering is a picture of repentance for one particular sin, the The Day of Atonement is a yearly picture of corporate cleansing for the sanctuary and all the people.

Leviticus 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

Now even in the parable of Matthew 18 the forgiveness of the debt was true forgiveness. It was rescinded because the man did not forgive his brother.

The sin offering points to true forgiveness of each act through the blood of Christ, when we confess:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The Day of Atonement looks from a broader view of the cleansing of all sins corporately of all true believers through time, just as it was for all those in the camp.

They are just different pictures.

And yes, if we turn from the sacrifice of Christ, we will then have to die for our own sins, because we have rejected that sacrifice. So Matthew 18 would still apply.

BobRyan · May 11, 2021

tall73 said:
The vision takes place before the conquest of Babylon. It is in the third year of the reign of Belzhazzar.

But the Ram is already standing and is already dominant in the starting events of the vision itself. This fits the same 457 B.C. start point that Daniel 9 gives it.

Dan 8:4 -
4 no other beasts could stand against him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and made himself great --- Persia is dominant at the start of the vision.

"The first Persian Empire, founded by Cyrus the Great around 550 B.C., became one of the largest empires in history,"

But This vs 4 is not the start of the Persian empire - rather it at a point where no one can stand against it and it is dominant. And so "it just so happens" that 457 B.C. fits that start and it "just so happens" that it is also the start of the 490 years of Dan 9.

Dan 8 - ends without explanation for the start date
27 Then I, Daniel, was exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up again and carried on the king’s business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was none to explain it.

Dan 9 gives the start event (missing in Dan 8 and given in Dan 9) in the Persian empire that starts both the 70 weeks and the vision in Dan 8

22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision. (refers back to the vision of Dan 8)

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

So then it starts in 457 B.C. https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/70weeks457BC.pdf

Ezra 6 - Three part decree
14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building according to the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. 15 This temple was completed on the third day of the month Adar; it was the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.

Ezra 7 - takes effect in Jerusalem in 7th year of Artaxerxes.
6 This Ezra went up from Babylon, and he was a scribe skilled in the law of Moses, which the Lord God of Israel had given; and the king granted him all he requested because the hand of the Lord his God was upon him. 7 Some of the sons of Israel and some of the priests, the Levites, the singers, the gatekeepers and the temple servants went up to Jerusalem in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes.
8 He came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king. 9 For on the first of the first month he began to go up from Babylon; and on the first of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem

The text of the 3rd part (in 457 B.C.) of the 3-part decree is given Ezra 7:12-26

"If we use the Persian-Babylonian calendar the date would be 458 B.C.; but if we employ the Jewish calendar the date would be 457 B.C. The Persiancalendar was based on a spring-to-spring civil yearwhile the Jews used a fall-to-fall one.
...
"We are fortunate to have two biblical passagesin the book of Nehemiah that provide an answer tothat question. In Nehemiah 1:1 the arrival of Hananito Susa is dated “in the month of Kislev of the twen-tieth year” of Artaxerxes. Later we are told thatNehemiah spoke to the king about the situation inJerusalem “in the month of Nisan in the twentiethyear of King Artaxerxes” (2:1). The year is the samebut the months are different.

============================================
In any case the 2300 years then ends in 1844. Pushing it back 93 years to a 550 B.C. start would mean that the 2300 years ended around 1747 which is not very useful given that this is before the 1260 years of dark ages persecution in Dan 7 ended. (And it is hard to see how a 1747 end date fits anything you have proposed).

tall73 · May 11, 2021

In the Adventist view of the sanctuary system God instructs sinners to come to the sanctuary to transfer their sins to the sanctuary. The sanctuary, in this view, is a giant holding tank for sins. However, when we look at the Scriptures we see that the sanctuary was the place where a Holy God was to dwell among the Israelites. Uncleanness was to be kept from it. And sins and impurities were to be atoned for and cleansed, not stored.

God expressed His desire to dwell among the people. However, because of sin, this would no longer be face-to-face communion as in the garden of Eden. Rather, God chose to dwell among them in the sanctuary.

Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.

The sanctuary was a means for a holy God to live among an unholy people. Its services were put in place to remove sin and uncleanness from the people. So we constantly see warnings to keep uncleanness away, not to bring it into the sanctuary.

An example of this is the rule regarding lepers:

Num 5:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:
Num 5:3 Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.
Num 5:4 And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel.

As these people were unclean, they were to be kept from the sanctuary. Uncleanness that could be removed was to be handled at the sanctuary. Uncleanness that could not be removed was to be kept away from God's presence.

Uncleanness was to be kept outside the camp, not close to where God dwelt in the midst of the people.

Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
Lev 12:4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

Uncleanness lasted for a set amount of time. Then the person would go to the sanctuary to have it removed.

Lev 12:6 "And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering,
Lev 12:7 and he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her. Then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female.

Where God dwelled was a holy place. Those who were unclean were not to approach until the time it was removed. And when people would come to the sanctuary when the time of their uncleaness was over provision was made through sacrifice not to store the sin, but to remove it. Atonement was made for the unclean person.

This was a general rule regarding uncleanness. It is stated again in regard to regulations for discharges:

Lev 15:31 "Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst."

Failing to be cleansed at the appointed time was a sever offense because it was an affront to the sanctuary. The person was rejecting the provision for cleansing, and their impurity remained. And this impurity then defiled the tabernacle in their midst!

Num19:13 Anyone who touches a corpse, the body of a man who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from Israel. Because the water for impurity was not sprinkled on him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is still on him.

Even in the case of the Day of Atonement it is clear that defilement from sin happens because God's sanctuary is in the midst of a sinful nation:

Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

There is no needed mechanism to transfer sins to the sanctuary. God lived in the middle of a sinful people. And the sin and uncleanness pervaded the sanctuary, the land, etc. And it was only the sacrifices which provided atonement by the shed blood, which represented the blood of Christ, that removed the sin and impurity.

We can see from all these texts that the sanctuary was the solution to the problem of sin contamination, not the vessel to hold sins. It removed sin through blood atonement. It was not the storage house for such contamination.

At the sanctuary sins were forgiven so that the impurity could be removed, and the people restored. Hence when the person brought the sin offering they were forgiven, and atonement was made:

Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

The blood of the animal represented the blood of Christ. He took on our sins, dying in our place.

1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

When we try to figure out how the sin which was already forgiven in the individual sacrifice wound up back in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement, we miss that they are just illustrations of the same truth--the blood cleansed. One was an individual lesson, repeated every time an Israelite sinned, throughout the year. The other was a yearly corporate lesson. All of the various sacrifices pointed to different aspects of Jesus' one sacrifice.

BobRyan · May 11, 2021

tall73 said:
First He offered, then He sat.

sin offerings at the altar were "offered up in smoke" - on the cross.
Heb 10:10 "10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time."

Offered on the cross. -- once for all.

We agree, He is a priest on the throne. He now ministers the results of that already offered sacrifice.

True - it was offered on the cross not in the heavenly sanctuary - and it was once for all.

He is seated to do His work as "priest and king" seated on His throne.

You didn't even address the clear Day of Atonement references.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

Inauguration as in the OT shadow - begins the sanctuary service. But it is not part of the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" service.

The judgment of Dan 7 is before the 2nd coming as you already stated and it deals with the saints Dan 7:22 as well as the oppressors Dan 7:25-26

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
But the Ram is already standing and is already dominant in the starting events of the vision itself. This fits the same 457 B.C. start point that Daniel 9 gives it.

Dan 8:4 -
4 no other beasts could stand against him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and made himself great --- Persia is dominant at the start of the vision.

Made himself great.....

The historical events that spread from Elam to the west north and south are before 457. And they involved monumental conquests. And this is in line with the time period of the end of the Babylonian Empire when Daniel receives the vision.

But This vs 4 is not the start of the Persian empire - rather it at a point where no one can stand against it and it is dominant. And so "it just so happens" that 457 B.C. fits that start and it "just so happens" that it is also the start of the 490 years of Dan 9.

Dan 8:4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.

The time where it was dominant and no power could stand against it was earlier.

Creative Commons by user Ali Zifan
Achaemenid Empire - Wikipedia

BobRyan · May 11, 2021

tall73 said:
In the Adventist view of the sanctuary system God instructs sinners to come to the sanctuary to transfer their sins to the sanctuary. The sanctuary, in this view, is a giant holding tank for sins. However, when we look at the Scriptures we see that the sanctuary was the place where a Holy God was to dwell

1. We can all agree - Adventists did not write the book of Leviticus one cannot blame its contents on Adventists.
2. God is the one stating the function of the Sanctuary in "transferring" guilt from the sinner as already pointed out in Lev 10:16-18

16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!

I don't think Lev 10 can be "blamed" on Adventists. That is not logical.

tall73 said:
The sanctuary was a means for a holy God to live among an unholy people. Its services were put in place to remove sin and uncleanness from the people.

This sanctuary was a visual aid to explain how the Gospel works. It is how God explains infinite concepts to finite beings.

Lev 16 - "Day of Atonement"

16 He shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall do so for the tent of meeting which remains with them in the midst of their impurities. 17 When he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, so that he may make atonement for himself and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it; he shall take some of the blood from the bull and some of the blood from the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides. 19 With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and consecrate it from the impurities of the sons of Israel.

20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. ...

25 Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar. 26 The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp. ...

An Annual Atonement
29 “This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble yourselves and not do any work, whether the native, or the stranger who resides among you; 30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. ...33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.

Your argument that cleansing/atonement never applies to the sanctuary does not hold up to a close review of the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" doctrine in scripture.

=====================

The reason Dan 7 and 8 point to cleansing as judgment "passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 is that the saints are persecuted during that entire time and it ends only when the definition of "saints" is fully determined - each and every name confirmed - as we see in Rom 2. Only then can that separation be done and the wicked cease.

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
sin offerings at the altar were "offered up in smoke" - on the cross.
Heb 10:10 "10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time."

Offered on the cross. -- once for all.

True - it was offered on the cross not in the heavenly sanctuary - and it was once for all.

He is seated to do His work as "priest and king" seated on His throne.

Of course it was offered in the sanctuary.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

He entered in once for all as well. And He entered in with blood. Blood was only necessary for entry on the Day of Atonement and the inauguration. But He fulfilled both, or it wouldn't be once for all entry.

Inauguration as in the OT shadow - begins the sanctuary service. But it is not part of the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" service.

But it also speaks of the Day of Atonement entry into God's presence, compared (favorably) to the YEARLY entrance of the high priest with blood. The inauguration was not yearly:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

- High Priest
- Cleansing of the heavenly things
- Christ entered to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
- He did not offer Himself repeatedly as the high priest enters yearly with blood not His own.

Even Adventist scholars have been forced to admit Day of Atonement references:

Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary on Hebrews 10:1:

Compare ch. 9:25, 26, where the work of Christ is again contrasted with that of the earthly high priest on the Day of Atonement.

M.L. Andreasen in The Book of Hebrews:

Verses 25, 26. The priests entered the first apartment daily, the high priest once every year when he went into the most holy with the blood of the bullock and the goat. (127)

William Johnsson in his essay "Day of Atonement Allusions," which can be found in the DARCOM volume on Hebrews, lists 9:25 as clearly alluding to the Day of Atonement.

The context clearly points to a Day of Atonement allusion (high priest . . . yearly . . . blood [cf. 9:7]) (113)

Alwyn Salom in his appendix article in the Daniel and Revelation committee series, speaking of verse 24, 25:

The reference in the context of the Day of Atonement service of the earthly high priest is not to the outer compartment of the sanctuary. (227)

Richard Davidson, notes that vs. 25 is an unmistakable reference to the Day of Atonement:

I agree with Young that Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 refer to Day of Atonement, because of the clear references to “once a year” and “every year” respectively. ("Inauguration or Day of Atonement?" Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002, 79)

Felix Cortez states in his article "From the Holy to the Most Holy Place: The Period of Hebrews 9:6-10 and the Day of Atonement as a Metaphor of Transition" in the Journal of Biblical Literature, 125.3, Fall 2006, 527 (footnote):

Unchallenged references to the Day of Atonement in the central section include 9:7, 25

Notice this last one in particular. An Adventist scholar, writing in journal with an audience from various backgrounds, acknowledges that there is no challenge that vs. 25 is a reference to the Day of Atonement.

And the "offering" in this case is the presentation of the blood. It is compared to the entrance of the priest with blood, not the death.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

And this is parallel to his description of the earthly:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The term that is used for offer in Hebrews 9:25 is the term that is used in 9:7 when describing the sprinkling of blood in the earthly Day of Atonement:

This was noted by Adventist scholar Felix Cortez in a footnote on page 25 of his dissertation The Anchor of the Soul that Enters 'Within the Veil': The Ascension of the 'Son' in the Letter to the Hebrews:

Interestingly, Hebrews departs from the language of the LXX to describe the manipulation of blood by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement: the blood is not “sprinkled” on the sanctuary but “offered” (9:7).

The author in 9:7 uses this term "offer" to describe the Day of Atonement ministration of blood in the earthly sanctuary. This anticipates the fulfillment, in which Christ enters God's presence (9:24) and offers Himself (9:25).

Jesus' offered Himself in God's presence, on our behalf, the completed sacrifice, and He only did it once.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

BobRyan · May 11, 2021

tall73 said:
Of course it was offered in the sanctuary.

Lev 16
25 Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

Ex 30:20 NASB when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.

Heb 9: 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

Heb 10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Only on the Cross did Christ "bears the sins of many". In Heaven He is pleading His blood in our behalf - His blood shed after having had the "sins of many" placed upon Him - and then dying as our substitutionary atoning sacrifice.

Clearly that is not "in the sanctuary"

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

He entered in once for all

One sacrifice -- offered up -- offering the body of Christ - on the cross.

And in every case in scripture - the inauguration service is not part of the "Day of Atonement"

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. We can all agree - Adventists did not write the book of Leviticus one cannot blame its contents on Adventists.
2. God is the one stating the function of the Sanctuary in "transferring" guilt from the sinner as already pointed out in Lev 10:16-18

16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!

I don't think Lev 10 can be "blamed" on Adventists. That is not logical.

Atonement is made. It does not say the sin is transferred to the sanctuary. In fact as already pointed out whatever touches its flesh is holy:

Lev 6:25 “Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering. In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD; it is most holy.
Lev 6:26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tent of meeting.
Lev 6:27 Whatever touches its flesh shall be holy, and when any of its blood is splashed on a garment, you shall wash that on which it was splashed in a holy place.

The atonement was made in the holy place:

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

Your argument that cleansing/atonement never applies to the sanctuary does not hold up to a close review of the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" doctrine in scripture.

I never stated that in the least! In fact I pointed out:

Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

The sanctuary is defiled not by the sin offering, which is holy, as it represents Jesus, but by being in the midst of the uncleanness of Israel. The Day of Atonement is a yearly picture of corporate cleansing.

And I pointed out the fulfillment of the this cleansing blood presented in God's presence:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
One sacrifice -- offered up -- offering the body of Christ - on the cross.

You should address the point made about offer in Hebrews.

The "offering" in this case is the presentation of the blood. It is compared to the entrance of the priest with blood, not the death.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

And this is parallel to his description of the earthly:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The term that is used for offer in Hebrews 9:25 is the term that is used in 9:7 when describing the sprinkling of blood in the earthly Day of Atonement:

This was noted by Adventist scholar Felix Cortez in a footnote on page 25 of his dissertation The Anchor of the Soul that Enters 'Within the Veil': The Ascension of the 'Son' in the Letter to the Hebrews:

Interestingly, Hebrews departs from the language of the LXX to describe the manipulation of blood by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement: the blood is not “sprinkled” on the sanctuary but “offered” (9:7).

The author in 9:7 uses this term "offer" to describe the Day of Atonement ministration of blood in the earthly sanctuary. This anticipates the fulfillment, in which Christ enters God's presence (9:24) and offers Himself (9:25).

Jesus' offered Himself in God's presence, on our behalf, the completed sacrifice, and He only did it once.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
And in every case in scripture - the inauguration service is not part of the "Day of Atonement"

There is only one sacrifice, only one entry, and only one presentation in God's presence.

All the rites were fulfilled in that, and it only happened in the first century.

BobRyan · May 11, 2021

tall73 said:
There is only one sacrifice, only one entry,

That is true - we both agree on the fact that Jesus dies on the cross once, enters the sanctuary once.

But he "offers up" the once for all sacrifice of himself -- on the cross. Where He "bore the sins of many".. That is not what He does in heaven - it is what He did on the cross.

BobRyan said:
Lev 16
25 Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

Ex 30:20 NASB when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.

Heb 9: 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

Heb 10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Only on the Cross did Christ "bears the sins of many". In Heaven He is pleading His blood in our behalf - His blood shed after having had the "sins of many" placed upon Him - and then dying as our substitutionary atoning sacrifice.

Clearly that is not "in the sanctuary"

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

He entered in once for all

One sacrifice -- offered up -- offering the body of Christ - on the cross.

And in every case in scripture - the inauguration service is not part of the "Day of Atonement"

tall73 said:
You should address the point made about offer in Hebrews.

The "offering" in this case is the presentation of the blood.

Hebrews says it is the offering of His body as a sacrifice

As already noted above --

Heb 10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

His sacrifice "offered up" on the cross after having the sins of many placed upon Him.

Heb 9: 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

BobRyan · May 11, 2021

tall73 said:
All the rites were fulfilled in that, and it only happened in the first century.

All sacrifices in one sacrifice - but still two distinct phases of the sanctuary service to demonstrate the work of the Gospel.

BobRyan · May 11, 2021

tall73 said:
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

And this is parallel to his description of the earthly:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The sin offering is "offered up" on the altar.

Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

Heb 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 9: 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

Sins only placed on Jesus at the cross - and then he died for them... sins not once again placed on Jesus when He ascends to heaven.

BobRyan · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
Lev 10:16-18
16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!

tall73 said:
Atonement is made. It does not say the sin is transferred to the sanctuary. In fact as already pointed out whatever touches its flesh is holy:

Transferred - Lev 10 - "He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement
18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!"

The detail given in response to your assertion - is what you keep sidestepping. you can do that if you must - but my POV does not require it.

As pointed out it is the Sanctuary itself that is atoned for - and cleansed according to God's "Day of Atonement" doctrine in Lev 16 -

BobRyan said:
1. We can all agree - Adventists did not write the book of Leviticus one cannot blame its contents on Adventists.
2. God is the one stating the function of the Sanctuary in "transferring" guilt from the sinner as already pointed out in Lev 10:16-18

16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!

I don't think Lev 10 can be "blamed" on Adventists. That is not logical.

This sanctuary was a visual aid to explain how the Gospel works. It is how God explains infinite concepts to finite beings.

Lev 16 - "Day of Atonement"

16 He shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall do so for the tent of meeting which remains with them in the midst of their impurities. 17 When he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, so that he may make atonement for himself and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it; he shall take some of the blood from the bull and some of the blood from the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides. 19 With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and consecrate it from the impurities of the sons of Israel.

20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. ...

25 Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar. 26 The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp. ...

An Annual Atonement
29 “This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble yourselves and not do any work, whether the native, or the stranger who resides among you; 30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. ...33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.

Your argument that cleansing/atonement never applies to the sanctuary does not hold up to a close review of the Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" doctrine in scripture.

As we see in that quote - cleansing and atonement due to the pollution of sin - is for both the sanctuary AND the people. Lev 16: 18-20, 30-33

tall73 said:
The offering is holy. The blood is holy. Anything the flesh touches is holy.

As we see in the quote of mine from what God said in Lev 16:18-20, 30-33 it is not just cleansing of the people - not just atonement for the people - but cleansing and atonement for the sanctuary and the altar.

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
All sacrifices in one sacrifice - but still two distinct phases of the sanctuary service to demonstrate the work of the Gospel.

There was no need for repeated daily sacrifice, and the texts were already posted. Those were all done in one.

Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

BobRyan said:
That is true - we both agree on the fact that Jesus dies on the cross once, enters the sanctuary once.

But he "offers up" the once for all sacrifice of himself -- on the cross. Where He "bore the sins of many".. That is not what He does in heaven - it is what He did on the cross.

Hebrews says it is the offering of His body as a sacrifice

As already noted above --

Heb 10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

His sacrifice "offered up" on the cross after having the sins of many placed upon Him.

Heb 9: 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

We agree He offered up His body, and there are texts that say that.

But I also posted that He entered into God's presence in comparison to the yearly entry of the high priest with blood. That is not speaking of the cross. You don't enter the sanctuary with blood on the cross.

And I noted that in the description of the earthly the word offer is used of the blood ministration in the Day of Atonement service.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

As the Adventist scholars noted, high priest, yearly, entry, with blood, that is the Day of Atonement.

And it is in the description of Jesus entry on our behalf into God's presence, not the death.

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
Transferred - Lev 10 - "He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement
18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!"

The detail given in response to your assertion - is what you keep sidestepping. you can do that if you must - but my POV does not require it.

I have not sidestepped at all. It says nothing about the sin being transferred to the sanctuary by the sin offering. It does say atonement is made. It says the guilt is taken away.

Now you have bolded "since its blood has not been brought inside".

But the text that spells out how this work tells us what that means. The sin offering makes atonement in the the holy place, not transfer of sin to the holy place:

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

This does not show sin transferred to the sanctuary. It shows that the blood made atonement in the holy place.

Let's again go through the texts dealing with the sin offering:

Lev 4:13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,
Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
Lev 4:16 Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull into the tent of meeting,
Lev 4:17 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil.
Lev 4:18 And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is in the tent of meeting before the LORD, and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:19 And all its fat he shall take from it and burn on the altar.
Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:21 And he shall carry the bull outside the camp and burn it up as he burned the first bull; it is the sin offering for the assembly.
Lev 4:22 “When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the LORD his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:23 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish,
Lev 4:24 and shall lay his hand on the head of the goat and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
Lev 4:25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
Lev 4:26 And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. So the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.
Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:32 “If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish
Lev 4:33 and lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev 4:34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

The sin offering brings forgiveness and atonement to the person. But it says nothing about the sin being transferred to the sanctuary.

Lev 6:25 “Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering. In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD; it is most holy.
Lev 6:26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tent of meeting.
Lev 6:27 Whatever touches its flesh shall be holy, and when any of its blood is splashed on a garment, you shall wash that on which it was splashed in a holy place.
Lev 6:28 And the earthenware vessel in which it is boiled shall be broken. But if it is boiled in a bronze vessel, that shall be scoured and rinsed in water.
Lev 6:29 Every male among the priests may eat of it; it is most holy.
Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

Whatever it touches is holy. That does not at all say that the sin offering transfers sin, but transfers holiness.

And the blood brought in is stated in verse 30 to make atonement in the Holy Place.

The text you cite is an application of verse 30:

Lev 10:16 Now Moses diligently inquired about the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it was burned up! And he was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the surviving sons of Aaron, saying,
Lev 10:17 “Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may take away the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?
Lev 10:18 Behold, its blood was not brought into the inner part of the sanctuary. You certainly ought to have eaten it in the sanctuary, as I commanded.”
Lev 10:19 And Aaron said to Moses, “Behold, today they have offered their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD, and yet such things as these have happened to me! If I had eaten the sin offering today, would the LORD have approved?”
Lev 10:20 And when Moses heard that, he approved.

They could not eat the holy sin offering because they were not holy. The sin offering is not stated in any of these texts to transfer sin to the sanctuary, but to make atonement for the person, provide forgiveness for the person, make atonement in the holy place, etc.

The blood points to Jesus who died for our sins.

As pointed out it is the Sanctuary itself that is atoned for - and cleansed according to God's "Day of Atonement" doctrine in Lev 16 -

Of course, I pointed that out a number of times. But the defilement is because it is in the midst of an unclean people, not from the sin offering. The sin offering atones and forgives.

As we see in that quote - cleansing and atonement due to the pollution of sin - is for both the sanctuary AND the people. Lev 16: 18-20, 30-33

Of course it is. That has been stated a number of times. And the fulfillment is Hebrews 9:23-25.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

As we see in the quote of mine from what God said in Lev 16:18-20, 30-33 it is not just cleansing of the people - not just atonement for the people - but cleansing and atonement for the sanctuary and the altar.

Yes, already stated, and the fulfillment.

And also, the sin offering too provided atonement in the holy place, not defiled it:

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

The purpose of the blood is to cleanse:

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

tall73 · May 11, 2021

BobRyan said:
Heb 9: 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

Notice the whole argument:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Jesus entered into God's presence on our behalf as our High Priest, offering Himself, compared to the high priest entry with blood yearly.

This entry is parallel to the entry with blood in 9:7 where the priest offers the blood:
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The author notes in verse 25 that this presentation is not repeated every year, as is the entry of the earthly high priest.

Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

The reason Jesus does not present Himself yearly as the high priest does in the earthly is that then He would have to suffer repeatedly as well, which verse 26 states:

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The argument the author is making in verse 26 is that if Jesus were to offer Himself in heaven before God often, He would also have to suffer (death) often. The ministration of the blood followed the death of the victim.

But this argument, makes no since if both offer and suffer mean death. If both offer and suffer refer to death, then the argument of the two verses would be:

Nor yet was it to die often . . . for then he would have had to die often.

The statement would be redundant.

Instead, what we see in vs. 24 and 25, is an entrance into God's presence, compared to the earthly entrance of the high priest with blood yearly. But He does not have to do it repeatedly, every year, because then He would have to suffer repeatedly.

Instead He enters once.

And this was all anticipated by 9:7 which uses the word offer to show the blood ministration in the Day of Atonement type.

Adventist Investigative Judgment

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Sophia7's husband

Similar threads