Why do people blame calvinists ?

Dave L

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It is truly sad that truth in Romans 10:6-10 upsets you so much that you feel the need to lash out incoherently. For entertainment anyone reading this thread should go back and read our exchanges. Its like trying to argue with a flat earther.
What upsets me is you reading Arminianism into the passage making people their own savior while denying God's role in salvation.
 
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Butch5

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Only believers think in terms of Romans 10:6-10. You deny grace and turn it into law for the self-righteous to save themselves therewith.
No one can save themselves. You've created a false dilemma. It's a logical fallacy. God save but requires action on the part of the person.
 
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RickReads

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It took awhile But I believe the right answer has been given to me.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

( The verse says saved by regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Regeneration saves the Bible says, therefore it would be impossible for this to occur before someone has heard about Jesus as the Calvinists contend.)

( The passage below explains how a natural man dead in sin comes to repentance. The chastisement of the Holy Spirit. It`s not regeneration as Calvinists believe rather it`s the scolding of the heart which is called coming under conviction by evangelicals.)

John 16

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"
 
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ShawnG

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Anecdotal evidence showed me Gid controls it all. I listened to hundreds of testimonies abd all of them experienced the Holy Spirit in a supernatural way at least once and it gave them a new heart and spirit as it says that God himself does it not the person. It was supernatural. But main thing was I heard many testimonies of people that were not believers did not hear the word of God and did not want Gid but God irresistibly came to them supernaturally. Some by dreams some by a voice and God chose them. One man was a Buddhist monk in China Gid came to in dreams. Another was Muslim man in Middle East. There are millions of them but God just came to those individuals. Another was a gay man in NC watching inappropriate content he says and Voice told him don’t do that abd little by little God kept speaking to him and then gave him dreams and the man of course followed Gid cause no one will deny that. I found through bible but even more so real world evidence that Gid controls who gets saved. And it is supernatural. The holt spirit like in the book of Acts where Gid is like a person and you really get born again. Like something you never forget.
 
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RickReads

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How do calvinists know for certain when a person is saved or part of the eject?? Do they say it is those who believe in Jesus or what is the criteria that makes it for certain a person is chosen elect?

Only God knows who the elect are. However, Jesus said saved people would know each other by the fruits of their lives.

Matthew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 
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FredVB

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Only God knows who the elect are. However, Jesus said saved people would know each other by the fruits of their lives.

God most certainly does know who is saved and is going to heaven. We do not know for certain who are and who are not the elect. So making an issue of the distinction of the elect from those not the elect, as opposed to believers from nonbelievers, is irrelevant. Calvinism started with Calvin, as Armineanism started with Armineus. Christianity itself goes back to the time of the new testament of the Bible, which is based on Jesus. So what Jesus said and the new testament shows is the relevance to what we can believe, whatever others who came later say.

When we see others living in ways with fruit of the Spirit of God showing we can be sure they are also saved believers who are going to Heaven and will be with Jesus from then on. That there are others who are yet to come to Jesus with repentant faith does not give relevant basis to say there is distinction for who should hear the gospel and for whom it would be useless.
 
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John Mullally

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What upsets me is you reading Arminianism into the passage making people their own savior while denying God's role in salvation.
Was Peter on the day of Pentecost promoting a works based salvation when he proclaimed Acts 2:38-39? Unmistakably, the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter promises the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit (this is arguably salvation) to those who repent and are baptized (in verse 38). Verse 39 says that that offer extends to today.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them
 
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Mark Quayle

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No one can save themselves. You've created a false dilemma. It's a logical fallacy. God save but requires action on the part of the person.
It was not Dave who said people can save themselves. It was not Dave who created a false dilemma. Yes, it is indeed a logical fallacy you employ by saying that our salvation requires not only the work of God, but action on the part of the person. The gospel has only ever been the work of God, from first to last.
 
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FredVB

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John Mullally said:
Was Peter on the day of Pentecost promoting a works based salvation when he proclaimed Acts 2:38-39? Unmistakably, the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter promises the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit (this is arguably salvation) to those who repent and are baptized (in verse 38). Verse 39 says that that offer extends to today.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them

The essential real faith with which people are saved coming to Christ is with repentance, that must be there while it is not God's will for any to perish.

Mark Quayle said:
It was not Dave who said people can save themselves. It was not Dave who created a false dilemma. Yes, it is indeed a logical fallacy you employ by saying that our salvation requires not only the work of God, but action on the part of the person. The gospel has only ever been the work of God, from first to last.

God will not work salvation for any that do not respond with repentance.
 
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Clare73

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What's important to understand is that both are wrong. The early church, for the first 400 years taught that man had free will. They didn't teach this idea of original sin, so there was no hinderance to man's ability to choose to serve God.
Not sure how this helps. It doesn't change history. As I said,
the early church for the first 400 years of history taught that man had free will. That means whatever came later is wrong.
Maybe the Church wasn't wrong and your understanding of the Bible is what is wrong. You've simply grabbed a few passages of Scripture out of context here. What does that prove?
The word of God written not-with-standing?
Jesus had some strong words for those who elevated man's teaching above God's word written.

". . .the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." (Romans 7:7-8)

". . .everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34; Romans 6:6, 16-17, 20, etc.)--Everyone sins and slaves aren't free.

Man's free will is limited by his nature/disposition.
His will is not totally free, or he would be able to choose to be sinless, which he is not free to do.
He didn't say man is incapable of coming to Jesus.
Jesus said, to those He was speaking with that no one could come to Him unless the Father drew them.
He wasn't speaking to all mankind. He was speaking to a group of people. How does that effect anyone other than those He was speaking to?
So he wasn't giving teaching for the whole church, just for this group?

Really? And you know that, how?

So, how do you know which were and were not intended for all mankind in his teachings?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not sure how this helps. It doesn't change history. As I said, the early church for the first 400 years of history taught that man had free will. That means whatever came later is wrong.

Amen, Iranaeus refuted Calvin’s theology 1300 years before Calvin was even born.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to personswho oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all goodthings, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
 
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BNR32FAN

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What's important to understand is that both are wrong. The early church, for the first 400 years taught that man had free will. They didn't teach this idea of original sin, so there was no hinderance to man's ability to choose to serve God.

That hinderance was removed by God granting His grace to all men thereby enabling all men to repent and be saved. I think this is part of the puzzle that most Calvinists don’t understand.
 
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Clare73

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Amen, Iranaeus refuted Calvin’s theology 1300 years before Calvin was even born.
And Jesus and Paul refuted Irenaeus' theology 100 years before Irenaeus was born:

". . .the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8)

". . .everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34; Romans 6:6, 16-17, 20, etc.)--Everyone sins and slaves aren't free.

Man's free will is limited by his nature/disposition.
His will is not totally free, or he would be able to choose to be sinless, which he is not free to do.
]1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to personswho oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all goodthings, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
 
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Clare73

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That hinderance was removed by God granting His grace to all men thereby enabling all men to repent and be saved. I think
this is part of the puzzle that most Calvinists don’t understand.
Not according to Jesus:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65) -- all are not granted grace to come

"All that the Father gives me will come to me. (John 6:37) -- those granted grace do come, therefore those who do not come did not receive grace

"I give them eternal life and they shall not perish." (John 10:28) -- those granted grace to come cannot ever perish

That's the part of the puzzle Calvinists do understand, and you do not understand.

And these Scriptures are not taken "out of context."
 
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Clare73

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You appear to be implying that limited choices prevents freewill choices.
Man has limited free will, he does not have the moral power to make all moral choices, as in choosing to be sinless.
The issue is not the will, the issue is the disposition (preferences and likes) which governs the will.

We choose according to our disposition. . .and fallen condemned man (Romans 5:18) is not disposed to God (Romans 8:7-8), thinks the things of God are foolishness which his mind cannot understand and will not accept, because they require the indwelling Holy Spirit to do so (1Corinthians 2:14), he is, therefore, by his own disposition locked out of receiving the gospel until God has enabled him to do so (John 6:65), which God does not do for everyone, as demonstrated in post #396, above.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And Jesus and Paul refuted Irenaeus' theology 100 years before Irenaeus was born:

". . .the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." (Romans 7:7-8)

". . .everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34; Romans 6:6, 16-17, 20, etc.)--Everyone sins and slaves aren't free.

Man's free will is limited by his nature/disposition.
His will is not totally free, or he would be able to choose to be sinless, which he is not free to do.

How does Romans 7 :7-8 refute Iranaeus?

Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life,
 
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Clare73

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Free will is not free unless unlimited.
In philosophy, that is, so philosophy calls it "free agency."

The Bible, however, presents the ability to make moral choices, just not all of them, so the "free will" of the Bible is the "free agency" of philosophy.
 
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Not according to Jesus:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65) -- all are not granted grace to come

"All that the Father gives me will come to me. (John 6:37) -- those granted grace do come, therefore those who do not come did not receive grace

"I give them eternal life and they shall not perish." (John 10:28) -- those granted grace to come cannot ever perish

That's the part of the puzzle Calvinists do understand, and you do not understand.

And these Scriptures are not taken "out of context."

Not a single one of these verses says that God does not grant grace to all men.
 
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