JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

I would like to make a correction to my post #1548. I should have said that Gentile nations were never under the Covenant given to Israel. Of course, there were some Gentiles who escaped with the Israelites. As to whether or not they accepted God's covenant with the Israelites and became Israelites, I don't believe we have that information. The covenant was with God's chosen, the offspring of Abraham.

pasifika said:

Hello Studyman, I think it a great mistake on your behalf to say that "a broken covenant "and " law destroyed ", therefore no law..

Try and look at Romans 2:14...which states that the Gentiles who do not have the law, do things by nature which requires by the law and they are law for themselves, even though they do Not have the law...

But there is something call "mind" and "conscience" you and I both have it...

Thanks

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I was replying to the religious philosophy of Bob s.

"There was an "IF" clause in the agreement, covenant, If Israel did not keep the covenant's requirements the covenant would be voided. That, of course, is exactly what happened. Israel didn't live up to their part and the covenant ended at Calvary. All the laws of that covenant likewise ended. I don't care how the laws of the covenant were written, they all ended."

But the Covenant wasn't voided as the Scripture I posted for him clearly show. Nor did God imply, suggest, or otherwise say that if I break His Commandment, the Law becomes Void.

What happened was God renewed His Covenant with the Same LAW that existed before they broke them, but this time "ADDED" a temporary Priesthood to provide for the atonement of Sins until the Truth High Priest (SEED) should come. This Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi, because Israel broke HIS Covenant, is what Changed, Not God's Laws which define Sin and Judgment. As Hebrews tells us.

Heb. 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The Pharisees were still promoting these sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement/forgiveness because they didn't believe Jesus was their new High Priest.

These faithful Gentiles had God's Laws written on their hearts because they repented and "turned to Him". They did not have the atonement LAW. As Paul also says.

But they still obey God's instruction and are accepted without the "LAW" of atonement. As Paul also explains.

Rom. 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Without God man can not know what good is. Paul tells us it is God's Commandments that are Good, Holy, and Just. A man can not be Holy, while at the same time, rejecting God's Definition of Holy.

Rom. 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Not the "ADDED" Sacrificial Law Abraham didn't have. As it is written; "To obey is better than sacrifice".

Bob S said:

I would like to make a correction to my post #1548. I should have said that Gentile nations were never under the Covenant given to Israel. Of course, there were some Gentiles who escaped with the Israelites. As to whether or not they accepted God's covenant with the Israelites and became Israelites, I don't believe we have that information. The covenant was with God's chosen, the offspring of Abraham.

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And Jesus said the Children of Abraham are those who do the Work of Abraham.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

LoveGodsWord said:

Sorry Bob, I did not cut and paste anything except links to posts and scriptures you have chosen to ignore.

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You sure could have fooled me. It seems like I have read those same post before. Yes, I read your post or I would not have been able to catch the fact that you didn't address my post. Since, in the past, I have opened the same scriptures you provide in most of your posts I know what they are referring, I know not to trust them as proof of the topic. I have caught you too many times in the past.

Your posts have indeed been addressed with scripture that disagree with your teachings. You have not read my posts to you have you Bob. You would not have written this post here if you did read my post to you. You have a lot of catching up to do.

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One word will suffice, bologna!

Studyman said:

And Jesus said the Children of Abraham are those who do the Work of Abraham.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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Am I supposed to respond to your post? Are you correcting my post? Why did you post something I am unable to relate to my post?

LoveGodsWord said:

Then why not address the posts shared with you. Gods' Word is not bologna.

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Might I remind you that you are not the Godhead and your words are not God's and my response was not to God's word.

If you believe I have missed addressing something you want addressed then post it here and let's discuss it. If not Bob I see your not really hear for a friendly discussion it seems.

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Someone who tells everyone else that they are wrong should be able to comprehend my post and not lead the conversation down another path. Long ago I realized your posts are not friendly no matter how sweet you address your opponent.

If you want a discussion as I said earlier you have a bit of catching up to do and your ignoring my questions that I ask you. I can understand why. You do not have to answer them if you do not want to, just say so. Perhaps you can consider them at home.

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Oh great, now it is just me that has not answered all the questions that have been asked? You don't share any blame? Remember the proverbial idiom the pot calling the kettle black?

RBPerry said:

The Holy Spirit leads people into truth, and to imply that if I don't believe as you do, then I'm believing a lie. Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and sanctification?

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Yes, God's Holy Spirit leads those who God gives it to, into Truth. Jesus said this Truth shall set us free. And HE also said I shall know a man by his fruits.

The Religious philosophy that God saved Israel from Slavery and Bondage in Egypt, only to place on their necks an unbearable burden of 613 Laws is a false teaching. It is untrue. It is a Lie. If you even spent 10 minutes into study SEEKING the Truth, you would also come to the same "Truth" that I have. Just because YOU believe this false doctrine, doesn't magically make it true. And the Truth doesn't change just because I believe it. And I am not your enemy because I expose a popular falsehood.

In one sense it sounds like you have a problem with main stream Christianity, if you do then at some point you are going to need to recognize that you don't have all the answers, and maybe just some of your beliefs aren't accurate. We all deal with the same issues, fully understanding what the Lord wants from us.

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I never said or even implied that I have all the answers, but I Do know that God didn't rescue Israel from Egypt only to place on the Necks of those who placed their Faith Him, 613 unbearable Laws, and then slaughter thousands when they didn't keep them.

I am welcome, I even encourage you to show me where my understanding is flawed. Not by comparing them to your religious philosophy, or some other Sect within the group of religious people called "Mainstream Christianity". But by following the Instructions the Jesus of the Bible gave to both you and I.

"Man Shall Live By Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God". In this way, we are able to resist the wiles of the devil who disguises itself as "Apostles of Christ", as Paul tells us.

If a preacher is preaching the word and then sins, does that make his message null and void, I don't think so.

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First, this Preacher taught Baptist doctrine which "omits" much of the Bible, which differs from Catholic doctrine which "omits" much of the Bible , which differs from AOG doctrine which "omits" much of the Bible, which differs from SDA doctrine which "omits" much of the Bible, which differs from LDS doctrines which "omits" much of the Bible, which differs from JW doctrine which "omits" much of the Bible, all the same as the Pharisees which "omits" much of the Bible, and on and on and on. When he was reading from the Book of the Law, then yes, God's Word is true. But when he claims to preach by the Holy Spirit of God, while using religion as a venue to get him near little boys to satisfy his pedophile urges, to their life long hurt, then yes, his doctrines are null and void.

Let me ask you a question.

Would you follow satan as long as it claimed to have the Holy spirit, has a bible in its hands, and reads from it?

2 Cor. 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I did 30 years ago.

And by the Grace of God i escaped the snare. I am simply pointing out ONE LIE that is taught in the religions of this world, there are "many" more as Prophesied. God didn't save Israel from slavery and bondage in Egypt, only to place on his back, an unbearable burden of 613 laws. It's a lie. Your believe or non belief makes no difference, it's still a lie. And the Holy Spirit does not promote lies.

We can all find those who have fallen short and sinned. Over the years I couldn't count how many pastors have fallen normally to sexual sins. As your example, Baptist, does that mean all Baptist pastors are sinners, sure they are just like the rest of us. We are all sinners saved by grace.
There are consequences to sin, and especially sins that break mans laws.

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So you don't believe it is a Sin to God, only man, for a grown man to use GOD's NAME to get little boys drunk so he can sexually abuse them?

Are you serious? In your religion, The Holy Spirit guided him to damage these little boys for life?

This man can use religion as a avenue of access to little boys, and you defend him as "sinners just like the rest of us"? This is why I stay away from organized religion. You should take a big breath, stand back, and actually look at what you are saying. I say this as a brother, not the enemy.

So what is my point, we can always find those who have sinned or are sinning.

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You have completely deflected from the reason for my post. My point is not about sinners. My point is that just because a religious man tells me he has the Holy Spirit from God, doesn't make it true. He might believe he does. Just as those religious men in Matt. 7 who called Jesus Lord, Lord. WE are warned over and over again about religious men who come in Christ's Name, but are really deceivers.

Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them.

I would say, that if a man claims to be led by the Holy Spirit, but then entices innocent little boys that are not his, to perform oral sex on him through the effects of alcohol, that this man is NOT led by the Holy Spirit.

If you are not able to judge even these things, then how can you possible know you aren't even now following the teaching of satan disguised as an Apostle of Christ?

Again brother, take a step back, and a deep breath, and look at what you are saying.

Remember the woman caught in adultery, Jesus said "Where are your accusers, neither do I accuse you, go and sin no more." That is love, and compassion, He didn't justify the sin, but he forgave her.

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She wasn't preaching lies in the name of God to others. You are selectively picking verses from the Bible to promote your own religious philosophy. You just implied that this is what I do in your last post.

Here is what Jesus said to the Mainstream Preachers of HIS Time.

Matt. 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

So Jesus placed a greater condemnation on preachers, than HE did those sheep who listen to them. This is also Truth. Unless you can provide scriptural support that it isn't.

So my friend. 2 Truths have been revealed to you in this thread.

#1. God did not save the children of Israel from Slavery and Bondage in Egypt, only to place an unbearable burden of 613 laws on their necks. This is a Lie promoted by Mainstream Christianity that the Bible clearly exposes, if one considers Every Word of God as the Jesus of the Bible instructs.

#2. A man who claims to be an "Apostle of Christ", filled with the Holy Spirit of God, but preys on innocent little boys to satisfy some carnal pedophile sexual perversion, does not have the Holy Spirit.

You are free to provide Scriptural evidence that my understanding is flawed here, I welcome it, encourage it. But if you can't, then should you not consider that it is "YOU" who have been tricked, and not me?

Sounds to me we should all be a little more tolerant of each others opinions, because in reality that is all they are.

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Why??? Was Jesus tolerant of the Mainstream Preachers "opinions" of His Time? Where is your Biblical support for your "Opinion" here? If you know something that is Biblical Truth. Like "Jesus" is the Messiah. And someone, claiming to have the Holy spirit of God, has a different opinion, like Jesus was a good Prophet and all, but the Messiah has not yet come", what would you do? Would you take your family to his church? Would you go to his church? Would you let your kids go to his church?

How bad does the lie have to be before we resist it?

Bob S said:

Am I supposed to respond to your post? Are you correcting my post? Why did you post something I am unable to relate to my post?

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I was responding to your statement.

"The covenant was with God's chosen, the offspring of Abraham."

I posted who the Jesus of the Bible said were the "offspring of Abraham", along with the "works" this same Jesus mentioned Abraham performed, which the God of the Bible said was the reason for HIM Blessing Abraham's Offspring.

RBPerry said:

Well I don't know if I've opened anyone's mind in respect to legalism. I just came across a passage this morning during my devotional time. Kind of goes along with the discussions here.

Romans 2:14-15 (NIV)(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

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I think that very much relates to what we're talking about here.

Did the native peoples of the Americas have knowledge of a 7-Day calendar? Maybe, I haven't heard that they did.

Human beings being what they are, I suspect that some of them sought to please God by fulfilling the requirements of the law that were written on their heart, many did not.

But if the ones who saw God were not keeping a 7-Day week, that would indicate that it is not something required by the law.

Bob S said:

Hi Leaf, your post reminded me of my study on the International Date Line and God's giving the Sabbath to the Israelites near Mt Sinai. (I say near because it was given them before they reached Mt Sinai.) As the Sabbath observers moved Westward the sunset came later than at Sinai, so to keep the command they waited until sun set at their location. Centuries past and this method continued to work until the International Date Line was imposed on mankind. At that point in time, it was not the people living in the area of Mt Sinai who began the sunset Sabbath command, it was the people around New Zealand, then Australia and westward who started the command. That is how it stands to this day. No one seems to care and they go on their merry way. Recently the island of Samoa changed the date line to the East of the island that caused a great crisis in the SDA church there. Left up to their own choosing they are now worshipping on Sunday.

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Wow, fascinating! Especially about Samoa.

imge said:

Hi Leaf,

I guess we do not speak each other’s language because I thought I addressed the passage directly about my opinion based on the context of what Jesus was saying in the whole passage.

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Yes, you did give your opinion regarding the whole passage.

Just to humor me, what is your answer? One condition or two?

I also did ask you an exact question “what do you think the passage means?” So I am confused by your reply.

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I believe you asked several exact questions. What I was asking you, was which one do you want me to answer first?

So to answer your question, I think I think the passage means that Jesus fulfilled the entire law and the prophets. Based on previous things you wrote, I think you believe that Jesus fulfilled the "shadow laws". So I'm saying I think the same thing, I just apply it to the entire law.

Does that answer your question?

TBH and I am not trying to be rude, but I have noticed you get hung up on a word and can’t seem to take a step back to analyze what the message means in the scripture, instead you seem to get stuck on the one word.

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Being very careful about the details is how I think people can avoid going in circles.

When people don't want to talk about details, they often end up simply "throwing" verses back and forth, and saying things like, "you don't know what this means" or, "you're not in touch with God".

(Note: I'm not thinking of any particular person in the above. I've done the same thing myself )

Personally I would rather misunderstand a word, than miss the entire mark and message we are supposed to learn from the passage, which is what I think you are doing with what Jesus said in Mathew 5:17-20. He ends the passage with this which is pretty strong language that we need to obey God’s commandments. Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

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Amen to the scriptures!

In Galatians, Paul builds his sermon on a single word being singular or plural.
Galatians 3:16 Interlinear: and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ;
(The above is not just a quote, it's a link to the interlinear where you can see the original language.)

If we want to do things the Bible way, details are sometimes very important.

Edit: after thinking about what I wrote above for a while, if you don't want to talk about details, that's fine. We can just discuss entire passages.

Here's a passage that I think applies to the subject at hand.
Galatians 5:13 For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only don't use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don't consume one another. 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

What do you think this passage means?
I think what it means is summarized by that last bit: if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law.

A common objection is, "Does this mean we are free to murder all we want?"

Well, how much do you want to murder? We don't want to use our freedom to build up our flesh.

Studyman said:

Yes, God's Holy Spirit leads those who God gives it to, into Truth. Jesus said this Truth shall set us free. And HE also said I shall know a man by his fruits.

The Religious philosophy that God saved Israel from Slavery and Bondage in Egypt, only to place on their necks an unbearable burden of 613 Laws is a false teaching. It is untrue. It is a Lie. If you even spent 10 minutes into study SEEKING the Truth, you would also come to the same "Truth" that I have. Just because YOU believe this false doctrine, doesn't magically make it true. And the Truth doesn't change just because I believe it. And I am not your enemy because I expose a popular falsehood.



I never said or even implied that I have all the answers, but I Do know that God didn't rescue Israel from Egypt only to place on the Necks of those who placed their Faith Him, 613 unbearable Laws, and then slaughter thousands when they didn't keep them.

I am welcome, I even encourage you to show me where my understanding is flawed. Not by comparing them to your religious philosophy, or some other Sect within the group of religious people called "Mainstream Christianity". But by following the Instructions the Jesus of the Bible gave to both you and I.

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Studyman, I have never claimed that Israel had 613 burdensome laws laid on them. I do know in the US our congress has laid 30,000 on us, my lovely wife pointed that out to me.

Well you admit your are just like me, neither of us have all the answers. Over almost the last fifty years you can not imagine how much sexual depravity I have encountered in an outside the church. Now if I teach that homosexuality is a perversion, I can be charged with a hate crime, and lose my license. This all started in the 60s with the free love movement that should have been labeled free lust instead.

As for scripture I look for the spiritual messages that the bible gives us, the Holy Spirit will speak to all of us, the problem is many times we aren't listening, especially if the message conflicts with our own beliefs. I have to believe you are a person as I am, attempting to live a godly life and one that is pleasing to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is all any of us can do, and soon enough God will correct any of my misunderstandings, as He will with all of us. I have seen too much denominational bigotry to the point of hatefulness, and that has no place in the Christian life.
One person asked me, "how do I love those who are hard to love?" I told him he had to look at his own heart and figure out why someone was hard to love.
Dangerous false teaching is easy to spot. You are correct that demons or Satan can appear as angles of light, but their light goes out pretty quickly. We had a woman come into a ministry that I was involved in, she had incredible gifts, but they were all evil. She managed to destroy three ministries by causing the leadership to fall. I and our pastor knew right off she had problems. So you see, evil will away show itself.

Jer 31: 31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,

We are told by SDAs that what was written on stones is what now is written on our hearts. That is a pretty narrow group of Thou shalt nots is it not? There are so many thou shalt nots that are not listed in the ten commandments I would like to list a few. Maybe you all can add many more. - Pride, Greed, Envy, Wrath, Fits of Rage, Lust,
- Gluttony, Sloth, Dishonesty, Deception, Impurity, Debauchery, Witchcraft, Sorcery, Hatred, Indifference Jealousy, Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination, Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness, Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
Drunkenness, Drug Abuse, Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals, Discord, Dissensions, Factions, Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism and Atheism.

The best overall solution I can come up with to all of those sins with is Love. The act of Love in our hearts keeps us from doing anything that would hurt our fellow man. Jesus said:

1. “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
2. “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Nine of the 10 commandments rightly fit with the list. The one that doesn't fit is the weekly Sabbath command. It was a ritual command dealing with observance just like all of the special Sabbath feast ceremonies. They all were in remembrance of some act.

The SDA church has spent untold millions trying to convince people that they are obligated to observe a day. Very few respond yet SDAs tell us that the Sabbath like all of the other 9 commands are written on our hearts. If that were so it is common sense that multitudes would be knocking the doors down on the former Israelite only Sabbath. Personally, I have never had a tugging of my heart telling me I had to observe a day, but I surely am told when I do any of the wrongs in the list above.

LGW, all laws dealing with morality are love laws and are found in the Law of Love that Jesus gave us in Jn15. Morality laws are forever or until we reach Heaven and won't need laws. All laws given to Israel that were ceremonial such as the weekly Sabbath law and the feast Sabbath laws were for one nation, Israel. You will not accept this fact. You claim since the weekly Sabbath law is expressed in with the other nine, which deal with morality, the Sabbath law somehow deals with morality too. It did not deal with how Israelites treated their fellow man, it dealt with commemoration, a service, celebration or in memory of some person or event. a memorial. Sabbath was a ritual.

All of God's laws, 613 of them were moral, as in moral verses immoral. All 613 laws didn't deal with how we treat our fellow man or God.