About Sabbath

klutedavid said:

The commandments mentioned in the text (Revelation 14:12) are not the ten commandments. Otherwise, John would have slipped the word, 'ten', in before the word, 'commandments'.

John wrote two commandments in his first letter, so painfully obvious, that John is referring to these same two commandments.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

You may have been taught that the ten commandments are what the apostles taught the disciples.
I am afraid to tell you that loving others was the goal of all the Christian instruction.

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that cannot be true because it specifically says "commandments of God".

Issue 1 - Exodus 20:2 & Deut 5:5 (I am the Lord your God)

Again i remind you, the ONLY commandments of God are the 10 Commandments. You can google "commandments of God" if you wish...even the google algorithm will return the 10 commandments.

Might i just explain to you how the Google algorithm works...it returns the most likely information to a query based on a statistical analysis of worldwide searches and referencing. So if it returns "10 commandments" to the query, that is because statistically, around the world, the vast majority of articles on the internet state this to be the generally accepted result. That means the vast majority of Christians for example, clearly link the term "commandments of God" with the "10 commandments"!

Moving away from that, however, a far easier option is to just read the first commandment...it says who they belong to right there in Exodus 20 and/or Deuteronomy 5!

Issue 2 - Unitarianism cannot accept this argument...it counters their doctrine!

The two new commandments you mention are of Jesus own issuance. What you do not realise is that any unitarian is going to fundamentally have an issue with that view. It then provides proof of the doctrine of trinitarianism! Jesus is issuing a commandment of Himself. That means he is claiming status as God! We know this because God's laws are eternal, unchanging just like God Himself. So Jesus is overruling God's eternal "statutes and laws"? from a unitarian point of view, surely not!

Issue 3

From a trinitarian point of view, Jesus is in complete harmony with the father. this means they do not disagree. If Jesus was here to fulfill the wishes of the Father, than how can he change the eternal laws of the Father?

Issue 4 - In issuing a new commandment, Jesus is also throwing out the wages of sin consequence for breaking any of the statutes and laws that God set in place long ago (long before mt Sinai btw). hat of itself creates enormous problems for the entire Christian world view as it means anyone born after approx A.D 31 has no need of salvation because we are no longer under the law. If we are no longer under the law, there is no transgression of the law, and therefore no consequences for sin. If there are no consequences for sin, I do not need a saviour (because i was born in 1971).

The only logical conclusion from a unitarian perspective is that the biblical reference of "commandments of God" in Rev 14 must be the 10 commandments! To say they are not is countering their doctrine that Jesus is a man and not "Mighty God" (isaiah 9:6).

In any case no matter which way one looks at it, anyone denying Rev 14 are the 10 commandments are snookered!

klutedavid said:

God poured love into our heart, not the ten commandments. Loving others fulfills all that the law ever required.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:14
The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

One decree, not ten decrees. One royal law!

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Hello David,

Your not reading any of my posts to you are you (see here and here). If that is the case there is no point in us continuing our discussion. You of course are free to believe as you wish but ignoring the scriptures that have been provided in love and only as a help to you does not make them disappear.

According to Jesus they become our judge come judgement day in John 12:47-48. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness and according to the scriptures provided in the linked posts above there is no love in breaking God's commandments to both our God and our fellow man.

As shown through the scriptures in the linked posts above, love is not separated from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to God's law.

I asked you some further questions to help demonstrate this as shown in the scriptures in the linked posts above already but you just ignored them.

I asked you...

When we have faith and LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOR it is expressed through our actions (James 2:17-20;26).

If we LOVE our neighbor therefore in your view...

* Will we will honor our parents?
* Will we murder our neighbor?
* Will we commit adultery with their spouse?
* Will we not steal from them?
* Will we not lie to them?
* Will we covet what they own?

If we LOVE our God...

* Will we have other Gods?
* Will we make idols and worship them?
* Will we take God's name [follow him] in vain?
* Will we forget God's Sabbath and not keep it holy?

Now if you answer "no" to all the above David then you are in agreement that love does not abolish Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. If you answer "yes" that we can love God by breaking God's commandments then what kind of love is that? Please think carefully before you answer these questions considering what is being shared with you here as I will be referring back to this in our discussion latter.

Lets start with the above questions and see if this is helpful to the discussion.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.

Sorry Bob, the verse definitely does not say the (ten) commandments.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The ten commandments do not contain the commandment below.

1 John 2:8
On the other hand, I am writing a NEW commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

It is impossible for your interpretation to be correct. We know for a fact, that there are two new commandments in 1 John.

klutedavid said:

You completely missed the new commandment.

1 John 2:8
On the other hand, I am writing a NEW commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

Sorry to tell you, the new commandment fulfills the entire law on it's own.

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You are really using a single sentence just to make this passage about what you want it to say instead of getting the full meaning of what it is saying.

Maybe you missed the rest of the scripture, because what you are suggesting is the opposite of what this chapter means.

1 John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.

And if you keep reading

17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

If you really think this passage is saying God’s will and His commandments are now obsolete, that it’s okay to worship idols or vain God’s name, break His Sabbath etc. I am sorry friend, I would prayerful consider what you are suggesting.

To further this point John also says:

1 John 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Revelations also makes this distinction regarding the laws of God

Revelations 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Do you want to be one of God’s saints? According to John in the Revelations of Jesus Christs God’s saints both keep God’s commandments and the faith of Jesus.

klutedavid said:

Sorry Bob, the verse definitely does not say the (ten) commandments.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The ten commandments do not contain the commandment below.

1 John 2:8
On the other hand, I am writing a NEW commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

It is impossible for your interpretation to be correct. We know for a fact, that there are two new commandments in 1 John.

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God’s commandments are given in the Old Testament Exodus 20 and are part of the new covenant written in our hearts. Jeremiah 31:33 Jesus made very clear He came to do the will of His Father John 6:38 and He came to magnify God’s laws, not destroy Isaiah 42:21 Mathew 5:17-20

imge said:

God’s commandments are given in the Old Testament Exodus 20 and are part of the new covenant written in our hearts. Jeremiah 31:33 Jesus made very clear He came to do the will of His Father John 6:38 and He came to magnify God’s laws, not destroy Isaiah 42:21 Mathew 5:17-20

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God's commandments are given in the Pentateuch, not merely in Exodus 20. Who were they given to?

bbbbbbb said:

God's commandments are given in the Pentateuch, not merely in Exodus 20. Who were they given to?

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Actually they were a written record copied into the book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 as a record of account of God giving them to Israel through His Word *Exodus 20:1-17 and on two tables of stone written with the finger of God *Exodus 31:18. Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? Is it Israel born of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please)

LoveGodsWord said:

Actually they were copied there as a record of account of God giving them to Israel on tables of stone. Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? It is Israel of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please)

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Were God's commandments in the Pentateuch given to the Gentiles?

bbbbbbb said:

Were God's commandments in the Pentateuch given to the Gentiles?

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We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? Is it Israel born of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please)

LoveGodsWord said:

We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? Is it Israel born of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please)

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Did I ask you that question? My question, which you either failed to understand or intentionally evaded was, "Were God's commandments in the Pentateuch given to the Gentiles? "

A simple yes or no will suffice for an answer. Thank you.

bbbbbbb said:

Did I ask you that question? My question, which you either failed to understand or intentionally evaded was, "Were God's commandments in the Pentateuch given to the Gentiles? "A simple yes or no will suffice for an answer. Thank you.

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You do not know the answer to my question do you. I did ask you this question first. Your question was already answered in my first post to you.

LoveGodsWord said:

Actually they were a written record copied into the book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 as a record of account of God giving them to Israel through His Word *Exodus 20:1-17 and on two tables of stone written with the finger of God *Exodus 31:18. Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? Is it Israel born of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please)

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The Jewish people, aka Israel, are the physical descendants of their patriarch, Israel (the man). Collaterally they are descended from Abraham and his progenitors. There are numerous geneologies in the Bible which delineate the descendants of Israel.

bbbbbbb said:

The Jewish people, aka Israel, are the physical descendants of their patriarch, Israel (the man). Collaterally they are descended from Abraham and his progenitors. There are numerous geneologies in the Bible which delineate the descendants of Israel.

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My question was; Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? Is it Israel born of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please)

LoveGodsWord said:

My question was; Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? Is it Israel born of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please)

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Since you obviously know your own answer to your own question, why don't you tell us.

BTW, we all know that you are a firm believer in Replacement Theology. I am not.

bbbbbbb said:

Since you obviously know your own answer to your own question, why don't you tell us. BTW, we all know that you are a firm believer in Replacement Theology. I am not.

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There is no such thing as replacement theology there is only what is written in the scriptures and what is not written in the scripture. If you disagree prove what I say to you is wrong from the scriptures. Gods ISRAEL in the new covenant is all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. ISRAEL is only a name given by God to those who believe and follow Gods' Word. In the new covenant Gods' ISRAEL is no longer those born of the flesh but all those who are born again in the Spirit who believe and follow Gods' Word *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29. God's new covenant promise is to ISRAEL *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27. According to the scriptures if we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part of God's new covenant promise. Gentile believers are now grafted in place of Jewish unbelievers *Romans 11:13-27; Ephesians 2:11-13 and we are all not one in Christ (Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13). Therefore God's ISRAEL in the new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 are no longer those born in the flesh but all those who are now born in the Spirit through faith who believe and follow Gods' Word. If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise (need more scripture).

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord said:

There is no such thing as replacement theology there is only what is written in the scriptures and what is not written in the scripture. If you disagree prove what I say to you is wrong from the scriptures. Gods ISRAEL in the new covenant is all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. ISRAEL is only a name given by God to those who believe and follow Gods' Word. In the new covenant Gods' ISRAEL is no longer those born of the flesh but all those who are born again in the Spirit who believe and follow Gods' Word *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29. God's new covenant promise is to ISRAEL *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27. According to the scriptures if we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part of God's new covenant promise. Gentile believers are now grafted in place of Jewish unbelievers *Romans 11:13-27; Ephesians 2:11-13 and we are all not one in Christ (Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13). Therefore God's ISRAEL in the new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 are no longer those born in the flesh but all those who are now born in the Spirit through faith who believe and follow Gods' Word. If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise (need more scripture).

Hope this is helpful.

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Perhaps you might be familiar with the other term for Replacement Theology - Supersessionism. Here is the Wikipedia article about it - Supersessionism - Wikipedia

It is very real and it does exist.

bbbbbbb said:

Perhaps you might be familiar with the other term for Replacement Theology - Supersessionism. Here is the Wikipedia article about it - Supersessionism - Wikipedia It is very real and it does exist.

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I am talking about scripture. I am aware of the term. There is no such thing as replacement theology according to the scriptures. There is only what is written in the scriptures and what is not written in the scripture. Do you believe the scriptures shared with you? If not why not? Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? Is it Israel born of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please).

imge said:

God’s commandments are given in the Old Testament Exodus 20 and are part of the new covenant written in our hearts. Jeremiah 31:33 Jesus made very clear He came to do the will of His Father John 6:38 and He came to magnify God’s laws, not destroy Isaiah 42:21 Mathew 5:17-20

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What your actually saying is that the old covenant is the new covenant. Make no mistake about this. You have inserted the law into the new covenant and specified that. If you sin by breaking the law, then you will die. That is the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2)

In the old covenant, one transgression of the Sabbath was a death sentence. You have inserted that penalty for Sabbath transgression into the new covenant.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

No Paul, Jesus has not set us free from the law of sin and death. Break the Sabbath and die. See Paul, the law of sin and death is active in the new covenant.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Paul, you need to add the Sabbath commandment, otherwise your giving people false hope.

LoveGodsWord said:

We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. Who is Gods' Israel in the new covenant? Is it Israel born of the flesh or Israel born of the Spirit? (scripture please)

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The Jew loses his old covenant identity in the new covenant.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Israel above is not the Old Testament Israel because there is no Jew in heaven.

klutedavid said:

The Jew loses his old covenant identity in the new covenant.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Israel above is not the Old Testament Israel because there is no Jew in heaven.

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Good, so ISRAEL in the flesh is not Gods' true ISRAEL born of the Spirit in the new covenant. Let's revisit this as it is important to the discussion. For now though I asked you some questions here. Did you want to answer them?