About Sabbath

AdamjEdgar said:

Could we also add in at this point an extremely important and interesting statement that is found TWICE in the book of Revelation (written around A.D 90)...

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Now one can argue all they like that we are no longer under the commandments, or indeed that the covenant has changed. However, clearly, John when speaking extensively of end times (the book of Revelation is entirely devoted to this topic) absolutely defines those who are to be called saints in heaven as commandment keeping followers of Jesus ministry on earth.

If we then travel back to the first book of the New Testament we find a parrallel with what John said above in Revelation. Jesus said

Matthew 5:18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It is absolutely clear to me that the new covenant has nothing to do with disposing of the 10 commandments.
As a point of logic, I once again challenge any of you who refuse to believe this to do the following:

Go out into society and break the 10 commandments and see how long it is before your own life suffers some very adverse consequences! It does not even matter which one you break actually, however, since we are under a new convenant and therefore our evil deeds are hidden by the blood of the lamb, it should be no problem for you to go wild...put it to the test and just break em all!

Was it Forest Gump who stated "stupid is as stupid does sir"?

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AdamjEdgar said:

Could we also add in at this point an extremely important and interesting statement that is found TWICE in the book of Revelation (written around A.D 90)...

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Now one can argue all they like that we are no longer under the commandments, or indeed that the covenant has changed. However, clearly, John when speaking extensively of end times (the book of Revelation is entirely devoted to this topic) absolutely defines those who are to be called saints in heaven as commandment keeping followers of Jesus ministry on earth.

If we then travel back to the first book of the New Testament we find a parrallel with what John said above in Revelation. Jesus said

Matthew 5:18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It is absolutely clear to me that the new covenant has nothing to do with disposing of the 10 commandments.
As a point of logic, I once again challenge any of you who refuse to believe this to do the following:

Go out into society and break the 10 commandments and see how long it is before your own life suffers some very adverse consequences! It does not even matter which one you break actually, however, since we are under a new convenant and therefore our evil deeds are hidden by the blood of the lamb, it should be no problem for you to go wild...put it to the test and just break em all!

Was it Forest Gump who stated "stupid is as stupid does sir"?

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LoveGodsWord said:

No. Your trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach. You may want to discuss your interpretation with Paul who was at that meeting and latter says to the Corinthians believers 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God. Sorry David God's Word does not teach lawlessness as lawlessness according to the scriptures is sin *1 John 3:4 and those who continue in it according to John do not know God and need to be born again (see 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-10)

Hope this is helpful.

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klutedavid said:

Are you saying that the following two commandments are not, in fact, the Lord's commandments?

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

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BobRyan said:

The commandments include the TEN where "the first commandment with a promise" is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2 according to Paul.

The commandments include the TEN - and they include "do not cove" Rom 7 - according to Paul

The commandments include the TEN - in Rom 13 where these commandments are found
Rom 13:10
“You shall not commit adultery, (Ex 20)
You shall not murder, (Ex 20)
You shall not steal, (Ex 20)
You shall not covet,” (Ex 20)
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Lev 19:18)

As we also see listed for us -- even before the cross in Matt 19.

Bible details that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath/Sunday topic freely admit to (so not just one side noticing this key detail). As we already noticed here #11 on this thread -- page 1. It is "the easy part" of the topic. It does not mean you have to admit to these Bible details or agree of course... but it is helpful reference/context for the readers.

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Bottom line is - that means it is still a sin "to take God's name in vain" - and it is pretty easy for everyone to see that. This is not saying anything controversial at all.

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LoveGodsWord said:

Already answered in in a detailed scripture response showing love does not abolish God's law it establishes God law and is expressed by obedience to Gods' law in those who have been born again to walk in God's Spirit in post # 675 linked. You did not read it did you or you would not have asked this question. Have a read of the linked post and the scriptures provided and let's continue the discussion. You have a bit of catching up to do I see.

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klutedavid said:

This is what you said in your previous post (#675).Love is not separate from Gods’ law it is expressed through it. You insist that not coveting your neighbors oxen, is actually loving your neighbor. I strongly disagree with your statement. Trying to not covet your neighbor's oxen has nothing to do with, loving the brethren as Christ loved us.

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klutedavid said:

Wrong set of commandments.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Your adamant that Jesus did not give us those two new commandments above.

I count two commandments and you count ten. Someone is wrong here.

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klutedavid said:

The old covenant was abolished and a new covenant was established. The old covenant was based on the book of the covenant, i.e., the ten commandments. We know that Jesus gave new commandments because we often see them in the New Testament.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 4:21
And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

You need to deeply read the New Testament and understand the new covenant.

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LoveGodsWord said:

Then you would be disagreeing with the scriptures. Jesus says that love is not separate from Gods' law not me...

MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Paul also agreeing with Jesus shows that love is expressed in obedience to Gods' Law here...

ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], FOR THIS, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.Indeed brother UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN (Breaking any one of God's 10 commandments).

James also agreeing with Jesus in regards to love when he says in...

JAMES 2:8-12 [8] If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF [Sums up our duty of love in the 10 Commandments Romans 13:9] , you do well: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. [10], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], FOR HE THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW. [12], So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

There is no getting around these scriptures David as sin is breaking Gods law therefore not showing love to our fellow man according to the scriptures..

1 JOHN 5:17-18 [17] ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN: and there is a sin not to death.[18], WE KNOW THAT WHOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

God's law is the very standard of righteousness according to the scriptures...

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.

1 JOHN 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

and again from James...

JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

OBEDIENCE to God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) through faith that works by LOVE is how RIGHTEOUSNESS is expressed.

PSALMS 119:172 [172] My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Faith does not abolish God's law it establishes Gods' law...

ROMANS 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

and is why JESUS says;

MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

and why JOHN says;

2 JOHN 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

and again here;

1 JOHN 5:2-3 [2], BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS [3], FOR THE IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

and is why it is written;

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [4], HE THAT SAYS I KNOW HIM AND DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

1 JOHN 3:6 WHOSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT: WHOSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM

1 JOHN 3:9 [9], WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 JOHN 5:18 [18] We know that WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

and why JESUS says;

JOHN 14:15 [15] IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

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Now if LOVE is the very expression of OBEDIENCE to God's LAW *ROMANS 13:8-10 and God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) are the very definition of what RIGHTEOUSNESS is *PSALMS 119:172, and to break any one of God's 10 commandments is SIN *JAMES 2:10-11. How can you LOVE GOD and your NEIGHBOR as yourself, if we have no LOVE and break God's Commandments which ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS HANG *MATTHEW 22:36-40? Unless we are BORN AGAIN to LOVE from the INSIDE OUT we are only like dead mans bones and all we can do without JESUS is SIN *1 JOHN 3:4.

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SOME PRACTICAL QUESTIONS TO HELP THE DISCUSSION

When we have faith and LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOR it is expressed through our actions (James 2:17-20;26).

If we LOVE our neighbor therefore in your view...

* Will we will honor our parents?
* Will we murder our neighbor?
* Will we commit adultery with their spouse?
* Will we not steal from them?
* Will we not lie to them?
* Will we covet what they own?

If we LOVE our God...

* Will we have other Gods?
* Will we make idols and worship them?
* Will we take God's name [follow him] in vain?
* Will we forget God's Sabbath and not keep it holy?

Now if you answer "no" to all the above David then you are in agreement that love does not abolish Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. If you answer "yes" that we can love God by breaking God's commandments then what kind of love is that? Please think carefully before you answer these questions considering what is being shared with you here as I will be referring back to this in our discussion latter.

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You did not really address anything in post # 675 linked accept to make a statement that is not supported by scripture as shown in the very post you are quoting from and in this post here.

As posted earlier love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to God's law and is why Jesus says (quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18) ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

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The linked post in post # 675 linked and the scriptures provided there and in this post above show why your teaching is in error. Love is not separate from Gods' law. Obedience to God's law is how love is expressed to both God and our fellow man according to Jesus, Paul, James and John.

Hope this is helpful.

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AdamjEdgar said:

I have still not read a single answer to Revelation 14:12 and Rev 12:17.

1. the commandments of God is used in the verse BEFORE the testimony of Jesus. This means the commandments come first and therefore pre-date the testimony of Jesus.
2. Revelation specifically talks of end times. If the moral law (Gods eternal law) is not relevant, why use this as a way of defining the saints who will be saved? It simply doesnt make any logical sense to interpret it any other way.
3. The book of Revelation was written in about A/D 90. That is almost 60 years after Jesus death. Clearly John the Revelator believed that he was bound to follow the commandments of God. One cannot possibly claim that the 10 commandments are not the eternal law of God. The very first commandment defines who authored the moral law "I am the Lord thy God..."

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klutedavid said:

The commandments mentioned in the text (Revelation 14:12) are not the ten commandments. Otherwise, John would have slipped the word, 'ten', in before the word, 'commandments'.

John wrote two commandments in his first letter, so painfully obvious, that John is referring to these same two commandments.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

You may have been taught that the ten commandments are what the apostles taught the disciples.
I am afraid to tell you that loving others was the goal of all the Christian instruction.

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imge said:

This is not what scripture teaches us. The New Covenant was given by God before Jesus came to earth and was given to the same people “God’s Israel” Jeremiah 31: 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

We are all part of God’s Israel if you are God’s people. God said He would write His laws in our hearts, but He certainly did not say I will write the Law of Moses in our hearts and all the laws except the ones I personally wrote and spoke and than stored in the most holy of holy in My sanctuary. The New Covenant has the same laws, just different promises, which includes God’s Ten Commandments.

You also seem to think Jesus had a different will than God which is contradictory to what Jesus told us John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

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bbbbbbb said:

Quite true. I am still working on loving my neighbor as myself. When I perfect that I will start worrying about other matters. BTW, I have been working on it for over 50 years now and still see no end in sight.

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klutedavid said:

The commandments mentioned in the text (Revelation 14:12) are not the ten commandments.

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AdamjEdgar said:

also lets not forget, the moral law (10 commandments) is divided into two parts...
1. Love God
2. Love thy neighbour

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klutedavid said:

Wrong set of commandments.

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